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12/16/2012 09:52:12 AM · #226
Banning all guns will not work in my opinion but I am all for something being done. There really should be stricter guidelines for purchasing weapons such as required gun saftery classes as well as requiring safes to lock the guns away. Hold owners personally responsible for any misuse of their guns by them or not. Criminals will find a way but the children who come across a gun in their own home and kill themselves or someone else by accident or not should be prevented.

As has been said also, stop the glorification of these killers. Don't mention their names or show their pictures. Don't let them be immortalized. Instead lift up the victims and do all we can to support them.
12/16/2012 10:13:42 AM · #227
hear,hear

Message edited by author 2012-12-16 10:14:01.
12/16/2012 10:25:12 AM · #228
Originally posted by Venser:


Stats like that are useless unless you compare on a per capita basis.


I don't know how accurate the Wiki Stats are, but they are quoted on a per 100,000 of population basis.

12/16/2012 10:35:27 AM · #229
Originally posted by VitaminB:

Originally posted by Cory:

Now, given all of that, I think it's reasonable that we look to the factors that are common to these incidents, and the prevalence of guns isn't really the consistent factor.

Population density seems to me to be the common factor.


The one consistent factor in all gun murders is guns. I can guarantee that guns are more consistent in gun murders than population density.



It's not the only one. Another is that there's a person pulling the trigger.
12/16/2012 10:37:18 AM · #230
Originally posted by salmiakki:

Originally posted by Venser:


Stats like that are useless unless you compare on a per capita basis.


I don't know how accurate the Wiki Stats are, but they are quoted on a per 100,000 of population basis.


Does someone have the time to compare this with overall homicide rates in these countries, and total number of gun owners (both on the same /100k basis)
12/16/2012 10:40:44 AM · #231
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by escapetooz:



There are a lot of studies being done on "bright spots" in sociology and psychology. For example, if you have a certain demographic suffering from malnutrition, seek those in the same demographic NOT suffering from it to find the solution. AKA: Seek the solution to the problem not by studying the problem, but by studying where the problem is absent.

The same applies to mental health. We've studied those with mental illness top to bottom and it's lead to the atrocities of mental wards, shock therapy, rampant over-medication, charlatan "experts" manipulating their patients, etc. Now finally, the mentally healthy, the mentally exceptional are being studied. Let's find out how to help everyone reach their maximum potential as opposed to just trying to make our mentally ill "passable" in society.

Switch is a great book on these topics. We want to turn the discourse away from guns, this would be a good place to start.


So in other words, don't study Americans?



Certainly not.


I kid. You WOULD study Americans that aren't crazy to see why. ;)

My personal belief is loss of community is one of the biggest factors. We are social creatures. Loneliness, not trusting others, feeling unsafe, etc, are all feelings that come from lack of community. You can have the most amazing parents in the world, but as they say, it takes a village.

I read some amazing piece on how a child's odds of success are greatly improves with just ONE caring outside influence, like a dedicated teacher, or a youth counselor, etc. (sadly I have no idea where to share it) As was said by Cory, we all need to be kinder to each other. And to add my two cents, not just pleasantries. We need to learn how to connect again. When we lose human connection, we go nuts.

Message edited by author 2012-12-16 10:47:10.
12/16/2012 10:49:01 AM · #232
Originally posted by VitaminB:



The one consistent factor in all gun murders is guns. I can guarantee that guns are more consistent in gun murders than population density.



Well done Capt. Obvious, of course, the one consistent factor in all murders is murderers.

In truth, the above, while intended fully as a smart-assed retort, does contain a nugget of truth - the fact is that murders occur because of humans, and the issues that some of us have. The only way to stop this from happening is to figure out why some people feel so lost as to find themselves feeling that this sort of horrendous act is their best option in life, and then prevent them from ending up in that sort of mental state.
12/16/2012 11:00:23 AM · #233
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by VitaminB:



The one consistent factor in all gun murders is guns. I can guarantee that guns are more consistent in gun murders than population density.



Well done Capt. Obvious, of course, the one consistent factor in all murders is murderers.


If in a discussion about firearm related homicides you make the argument that an urban setting is more common than the firearm itself, then someone has to slip on the Capt Obvious costume and spell it out.
12/16/2012 11:06:10 AM · #234
This Handgun Control ad people are posting on Facebook came from 1981:
I found the original on Adweek\'s website - The forum won\'t let me post links

For comparison to today, I found these stats from July of this year on the Guardian UK website:

Japan - 11
England and Wales - 41
Switzerland - 51
Canada - 173
Israel - 6
Sweden - 37
Germany - 158
United States - 9,146
12/16/2012 11:08:05 AM · #235
Originally posted by VitaminB:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by VitaminB:



The one consistent factor in all gun murders is guns. I can guarantee that guns are more consistent in gun murders than population density.



Well done Capt. Obvious, of course, the one consistent factor in all murders is murderers.


If in a discussion about firearm related homicides you make the argument that an urban setting is more common than the firearm itself, then someone has to slip on the Capt Obvious costume and spell it out.


No, he was discussing gun ownership prevalence as compared to population density. The question of which is a bigger factor IS a pertinent one to ask. Obviously you need a person (part of population) and a gun (which is owned by someone) to have a gun murder. Thankfully, Cory is NOT an idiot, and that was not what he was talking about.

If you have two places of equal population density, but one has a higher percentage of gun owners, IS that a determining factor on gun deaths?

Again looking for bright spots perhaps we'd want to seek out places with high gun ownership, high population density, but low incidence of gun deaths to see why. As an example.

Captain Obvious had to go now. He's gone somewhere he's actually needed. ;)

Message edited by author 2012-12-16 11:10:20.
12/16/2012 11:12:21 AM · #236
We can quote statistics and blame the crazed shooter until the cows come home. Actually an 'expert' quoted in this morning's paper says we'll do that for about two weeks and then our attention will divert to the next subject.

Nevertheless, right now, we need to admit that we have a problem and address that problem. And no, we cannot solve it in one action. Still, we can begin.

Assault weapons belong on the field of combat, not utilized blasting to bits peaceful citizens in classrooms or move theatres.

It is almost certain that Diane Feinstein will reintroduce her gun control bill to take assault weapons out of play.
Another bill, by Chuck Schumer (D-NY) called Fix Gun Checks Act, would require background checks on virtually all gun transactions. An expert in the morning paper says "but the House probably won't bring any of it up for a vote."
[url=]You can read the entire story here.

The thing is, what can we do to alleviate this carnage?

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/user_id/811.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/user_id/811.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Karmat gave a hint when she mentioned the folks in Appalachia who learn how to safely use guns at an early age. And they use them to get meat for the table. They don't blow the deer to bits with a Glock, do they?

So we can support our legislators who are trying to bring this under control. We can support 'buy-back' programs, such as this one in Oakland, California this weekend that took several hundred guns out of circulation.

This site has a bunch of inventive people. Forget the stats for a minute. Think of something we can do, alone or together, to help.

If each of us chips away at this, maybe something will get done.
12/16/2012 11:14:35 AM · #237
Moot point. 1 is too many. Anyone disagree with that?

Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by VitaminB:

I saw that on facebook too, but I dont think its true. We have more firearm murders in Canada than 52 (unfortunately).

Stats like that are useless unless you compare on a per capita basis. The larger the population, the more I would suspect a particular crime takes place.

edit - People use absolute numbers for shock value, but they're meaningless for comparison purposes.
12/16/2012 11:21:41 AM · #238
Originally posted by PGerst:

Moot point. 1 is too many. Anyone disagree with that?

You're right, but we will never live in that utopia. Better to deal with the here and now rather then the never.
12/16/2012 11:30:33 AM · #239
That was exactly the point I made in an earlier post.

Unfortunately it seems like this needs to happen more and more and in every community for people to comprehend how bad the problem is. Most "experience" this from a distance, from the paper, TV. They say "oh, that's too bad, I feel sorry for them" but in the end, it didn't happen where they live and it will be forgotten far to easily for them. People who don't have kids won't be able to comprehend the feelings of losing a child. All they can do is complain how gun laws "affect them so much". At least they get to complain because they are alive.

So, this could easily become a way of life. Perhaps we should educate our young ones about the dangers of going to school. Unfortunately, so many posts here speak to that fact. You're right, it will be forgotten, and more children will die with the only thing they were guilty of was not brushing their teeth or cleaning their room.

Its sad really, and this entire thread makes me feel no better about the future.

Originally posted by sfalice:

We can quote statistics and blame the crazed shooter until the cows come home. Actually an 'expert' quoted in this morning's paper says we'll do that for about two weeks and then our attention will divert to the next subject.
12/16/2012 11:34:54 AM · #240
Originally posted by Kroburg:

Saw this one on Facebook. Not sure it is correct, but if so it really is sad.
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/145000-149999/147314/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1045398.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/145000-149999/147314/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1045398.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

It's correct, but old. I worked for the ad agency that made that poster in the 1980's.
12/16/2012 11:37:42 AM · #241
Now that's even sadder....

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Kroburg:

Saw this one on Facebook. Not sure it is correct, but if so it really is sad.
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/145000-149999/147314/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1045398.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/145000-149999/147314/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1045398.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

It's correct, but old. I worked for the ad agency that made that poster in the 1980's.
12/16/2012 11:49:16 AM · #242
Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:

Banning all guns will not work in my opinion

That's probably why nobody has suggested it.
12/16/2012 11:56:00 AM · #243
Originally posted by PGerst:

That was exactly the point I made in an earlier post.

(snip)
Originally posted by sfalice:

We can quote statistics and blame the crazed shooter until the cows come home. Actually an 'expert' quoted in this morning's paper says we'll do that for about two weeks and then our attention will divert to the next subject.

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', '/') + 1) . ' PGerst, of course you made this point. but then the collective brains in this thread continued to talk about the biggest and best and boldest statistics.

When the real problem is discovering the biggest, best and boldest way to alleviate the carnage.

seriously - Anybody got any ideas?
12/16/2012 12:39:29 PM · #244
Originally posted by sfalice:

Originally posted by PGerst:

That was exactly the point I made in an earlier post.

(snip)
Originally posted by sfalice:

We can quote statistics and blame the crazed shooter until the cows come home. Actually an 'expert' quoted in this morning's paper says we'll do that for about two weeks and then our attention will divert to the next subject.

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', '/') + 1) . ' PGerst, of course you made this point. but then the collective brains in this thread continued to talk about the biggest and best and boldest statistics.

When the real problem is discovering the biggest, best and boldest way to alleviate the carnage.

seriously - Anybody got any ideas?


As I said, strengthening communities is a big one. Spreading a feeling of inclusion and care instead of exclusion and disregard.

I think autonomy is another. A lot of crime has to do with power and control. The perpetrator feels powerless and wants to regain that power, but goes about it in a destructive and ultimately counter-productive way (and I'm not just referring to tragedies of this magnitude, but a wide variety of crimes). In our society we are largely passive. We consume, we watch TV, we feel we have no agency, no autonomy. I think it's important through community to empower each other, to feel special, important, and in control of our destinies.
12/16/2012 12:50:43 PM · #245
That's a good start, ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' escapetooz.
Reaching out to those around us works both ways, too.
We are all strengthened by a sense of community.

Another way to combat the specific tragedy we've just endured, and I touched on this earlier:
Write your Senator and/or your Congressional representative.

I just sent this to Diane Feinstein. She's my senator, but any US citizen can write.
Be forewarned. If you use this email address you cannot remain anonymous.

I was so very pleased to just read the following in a news article:

"To that end, California Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D, said she intended to introduce a gun control bill on the first day of the next Congress. Paired with a twin version in the House, Feinstein's law would take aim at limiting the sale, transfer and possession of assault weapons, along with the capacity of high-capacity magazines. "

Please let me know of anything I can do to help with this effort.

Alice Steele


12/16/2012 12:51:52 PM · #246
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Kroburg:

Saw this one on Facebook. Not sure it is correct, but if so it really is sad.
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/145000-149999/147314/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1045398.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/145000-149999/147314/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1045398.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

It's correct, but old. I worked for the ad agency that made that poster in the 1980's.


Just for reference, here are the homicides per 100,000 from wikipedia. Triple the homicide rate of the next most lethal country and 149x the homicide rate of Japan. Just as frighting as the original ad IMO.

0.02 - Japan
0.04 - Great Britain
0.58 - Switzerland
0.76 - Canada
0.94 - Israel
0.19 - Sweden
0.06 - Germany
2.98 - United States

Message edited by author 2012-12-16 12:52:15.
12/16/2012 12:59:16 PM · #247
Originally posted by sfalice:

seriously - Anybody got any ideas?

Mandatory trigger locks, a national gun registry that can be cross referenced against violent felons and mental patients, safe storage requirements, licenses and a minimum standard of safety training like we have for car owners, shunning all recognition of perpetrators, help for the mentally ill (the polar opposite of cutting social services), rewards for reporting illegal firearms, journalistic integrity standards for broadcast to reduce hatred and paranoia (intentionally lies can be expressed, but cannot be labeled news)... There are no shortage of ideas that can make a difference while preserving the right to gun ownership, only a shortage of the political courage to make it happen.
12/16/2012 01:03:37 PM · #248
Redirect: food for thought
12/16/2012 01:10:40 PM · #249
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by sfalice:

seriously - Anybody got any ideas?

Mandatory trigger locks, a national gun registry that can be cross referenced against violent felons and mental patients, safe storage requirements, licenses and a minimum standard of safety training like we have for car owners, shunning all recognition of perpetrators, help for the mentally ill (the polar opposite of cutting social services), rewards for reporting illegal firearms, journalistic integrity standards for broadcast to reduce hatred and paranoia (intentionally lies can be expressed, but cannot be labeled news)... There are no shortage of ideas that can make a difference while preserving the right to gun ownership, only a shortage of the political courage to make it happen.


All terrific ideas, Shannon. Do you have any thoughts on how you and I can implement any of them?
If not, is there any one thing here you or I or any of us could do?
Is there any way you can think of to bolster that political courage you speak of?
12/16/2012 01:13:49 PM · #250
Originally posted by alfresco:

Redirect: food for thought


Ah, yes, ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' alfresco. And here you've opened the 'other can of worms.' Mental health.
what a gripping story you present.
Again, we can point the finger to the spending cuts and closing of facilities to when things started to go wrong.
How can we begin to correct the problem?
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