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12/15/2012 12:37:38 AM · #126
Are you saying a teacher is going to have a precision head shot?

Originally posted by SEG:

I don't believe this to be true. There are many parts of the body that are still exposed. Too many people think that a gun only turns a situation into a wild shootout. That's what you see in movies and in drive bys. Yes it happens but outlawing guns in these places only tells the criminals, "come in, no ones packing here, take what you want, kill who you want."
12/15/2012 12:39:39 AM · #127
Originally posted by PGerst:

This makes absolutely no sense. If you knew all this was going to happen then you have the perfect means to prevent it altogether.

But, to maybe put a little value back into your "argument", think about it.

The attacker and teacher has a gun
The attacker has a vest
Who do you think is going to win here?
Now, the attacker has a vest and TWO guns.



The attacker brought 4 guns with him.

Yes, he was heavily armed and had a bulletproof vest but why in the world would you not want to at least have the odds a tad bit more in your favor than absolutely no chance at all?
12/15/2012 12:39:50 AM · #128
Originally posted by bspurgeon:

Originally posted by WiseWords:


There is nothing that will stop people who want to kill you.


Exactly. There is no need to add more guns to the mix. :) I don't want guns around my kids at school, certainly not in the classrooms. (We could use more crossing guards.)

To all, why bother with this conversation? It always ends the same way.


Hmmm... so... you ... who is bound by your word to do no harm, would not shoot a man who had a gun aimed at your child's head, Ben?

What if you knew the future? What if you knew that if you allowed this man to kill your child and go free that he would go... tomorrow and kill over a hundred children? If you held a gun in your hand, while he held the gun at your daughter's head, knowing that 100+ children would die the next day... would you still let him go free with his illegal gun while you held a legally gotten gun in your hand?

I wonder.

What is your limit? Is it a hundred dead children? Two hundred? A thousand? What?

WHAT is the amount of people you would allow him to kill (knowing ahead of time) before you would say that you would kill him? Is one daughter of yours enough? Or would you let him take all three... and your wife?

I am brutal in my suppositions. But, I'm not a killer... I'm just a suppose'er.

Just suppose.

12/15/2012 12:40:51 AM · #129
Originally posted by SEG:

it happens but outlawing guns in these places only tells the criminals, "come in, no ones packing here, take what you want, kill who you want."


No guns here.
12/15/2012 12:41:41 AM · #130
Originally posted by SEG:

Of course this is hypothetical but let's say as I stated in a previous post that the teacher or a teacher down the hall did have a gun in their desk and took this maniac down preventing the death of these children.

Of course this is hypothetical but let's say a Japanese subway rider did have his own stockpile of sarin gas and managed to take down the Aum Shinrikyo cult members before they were able to unleash all of theirs. Would this justify the danger of every subway rider carrying sarin or be a remotely reasonable alternative to restricting possession of sarin in the first place? Does the fact that the bad guys were able to get sarin while regular folks can't make it sensible to allow everyone to have it?
12/15/2012 12:41:52 AM · #131
Originally posted by PGerst:

Are you saying a teacher is going to have a precision head shot?



Not at all but without a gun your chances of making that head shot or significantly lower.
12/15/2012 12:46:36 AM · #132
All I'm envisioning here is a very high probability that the attacker will get another loaded weapon and do more harm. Hardly worth it. Prevention should be the focus.

Originally posted by SEG:

Originally posted by PGerst:

Are you saying a teacher is going to have a precision head shot?



Not at all but without a gun your chances of making that head shot or significantly lower.
12/15/2012 12:48:10 AM · #133
Reading this thread makes me as sick as hearing the news in the first place, this is no different to the handling of this tragedy by the media. Total insensitivity.
12/15/2012 12:48:21 AM · #134
I can't recall when is the last time I saw a headline like "Heroic passer-by pulls gun, averts massacre by his swift response," or "Mother of three on playground duty pulls pistol on crazed, shotgun-waving intruder on schoolyard, guns him down, saving over 50 children from the threat of death."

I'm not being facetious here. People KEEP offering up as justification that if only we could all defend ourselves we could make this problem go away, and there's absolutely NO evidence to suggest that this is true. We live in a country where MORE people have MORE guns than at any other time in the history of mankind, as far as I can tell, and it's like you NEVER hear tales like this.

What you DO hear is terrible stories of the killing of one's own family thinking they were intruders, of children digging guns out of hiding and killing/maiming themselves and/or others, and so forth and so on. But you NEVER hear the stories of citizen action averting immense tragedies like this.

That's just not realistic. It can't happen that way. You KNOW this, people! That's a romantic fantasy, born of a desire to feel it's possible to be in control of these evil forces as they collide with your life. But it just can't happen. Life's not like that.

ARMED KINDERGARTEN TEACHERS? Gimme a break, seriously. That's just wrong on so many levels...

****************

Let's take the time to mourn, to share our sorrow, to GRIEVE, for heaven's sake.

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 00:49:38.
12/15/2012 12:50:53 AM · #135
Originally posted by LydiaToo:

Shannon, are you saying that if you had known the day before... that this 20-year-old was going to show up in your room to try to kill you and your kindergartners and... knew that you were to be totally responsible for the lives of those twenty kindergartners in a room with no escape, are you saying that... even if you knew he was going to have a bullet-proof vest on... that you still would not want to have a gun to protect those children?

Correct. I would have a SWAT team waiting and the children would be nowhere near the area. And if you're positing a teacher who doesn't know and was merely "being prepared," I would consider that teacher outrageously guilty of endangering the lives of students every single day on the astronomically remote chance of encountering such a situation, which is exactly why teachers caught with guns in school are arrested.
12/15/2012 12:51:11 AM · #136
Originally posted by LydiaToo:

Originally posted by bspurgeon:

Originally posted by WiseWords:


There is nothing that will stop people who want to kill you.


Exactly. There is no need to add more guns to the mix. :) I don't want guns around my kids at school, certainly not in the classrooms. (We could use more crossing guards.)

To all, why bother with this conversation? It always ends the same way.


Hmmm... so... you ... who is bound by your word to do no harm, would not shoot a man who had a gun aimed at your child's head, Ben?

What if you knew the future? What if you knew that if you allowed this man to kill your child and go free that he would go... tomorrow and kill over a hundred children? If you held a gun in your hand, while he held the gun at your daughter's head, knowing that 100+ children would die the next day... would you still let him go free with his illegal gun while you held a legally gotten gun in your hand?
.


I never said I wouldn't protect my family. We don't know the future, but I do know that I can protect my family without a gun. I'm quite certain that a scenario can be conjured that makes this impossible and I'm OK with that because if it needs to be conjured then it is unlikely to happen.

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 00:51:49.
12/15/2012 12:51:47 AM · #137
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by SEG:

Of course this is hypothetical but let's say as I stated in a previous post that the teacher or a teacher down the hall did have a gun in their desk and took this maniac down preventing the death of these children.

Of course this is hypothetical but let's say a Japanese subway rider did have his own stockpile of sarin gas and managed to take down the Aum Shinrikyo cult members before they were able to unleash all of theirs. Would this justify the danger of every subway rider carrying sarin or be a remotely reasonable alternative to restricting possession of sarin in the first place? Does the fact that the bad guys were able to get sarin while regular folks can't make it sensible to allow everyone to have it?


That's your problem. You go to extremes to justify your point.

OK, not hypothetical. Is this person a hero or a crazed gun toting lunatic?

video link

It is a fact that concealed carry holders prevent more crimes, saves many lives, and takes few
12/15/2012 12:52:35 AM · #138
Originally posted by Bear_Music:



...ARMED KINDERGARTEN TEACHERS? Gimme a break, seriously. That's just wrong on so many levels...



I doubt that many of the dead kindergartners' parents agree with you tonight, Robert.

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 00:55:50.
12/15/2012 12:55:00 AM · #139
Tonight yes....but once they realize what a dumb idea it is, the will.

Originally posted by LydiaToo:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:



...ARMED KINDERGARTEN TEACHERS? Gimme a break, seriously. That's just wrong on so many levels...



I doubt that many of the dead kindergartner's parents agree with you tonight, Robert.
12/15/2012 12:55:20 AM · #140
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I can't recall when is the last time I saw a headline like "Heroic passer-by pulls gun, averts massacre by his swift response," or "Mother of three on playground duty pulls pistol on crazed, shotgun-waving intruder on schoolyard, guns him down, saving over 50 children from the threat of death."


You don't here about those situations because they may have been stopped before they happened.
12/15/2012 12:55:35 AM · #141
Originally posted by LydiaToo:

I doubt that many of the dead kindergartner's parents agree with you tonight, Robert.

I don't think that's true, actually. I very much doubt that the average parent's respond to a disaster like this is "My God! Why aren't our teachers armed and trained in how to take down crazed assassins in the classroom?" And even if some of them DO think it, it's an irrational response.
12/15/2012 01:01:20 AM · #142
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by LydiaToo:

I doubt that many of the dead kindergartner's parents agree with you tonight, Robert.

I don't think that's true, actually. I very much doubt that the average parent's respond to a disaster like this is "My God! Why aren't our teachers armed and trained in how to take down crazed assassins in the classroom?" And even if some of them DO think it, it's an irrational response.


Ok. So you think they're happy that their child's teacher didn't kill this murderer before he killed their child?

Did they want the child's teacher to sneeze on the murderer? Or what?

If your child had died today... innocently at school... while the teacher wanted to protect her ...

Would you be okay that the teacher was defenseless against the murderer? Or would you have wanted her to have some protection from the murderer?

If so, what protection would you want her to have... knowing ahead of time that there are people "out there" who might come in here today to try to kill me and these five-year-olds?

Or... are you okay with them huddling in the bathroom, with her trying to make them be "totally quiet" while a man with a gun is one door away?
12/15/2012 01:05:00 AM · #143
Keep going with these "what ifs"....let me add another.

What if the armed teacher, who has little experience in this, shoots, and kills a student in the process?

You see where this is going? Multiple people have quite simply pointed out that more bullets is a bad idea....

Originally posted by LydiaToo:


Would you be okay that the teacher was defenseless against the murderer? Or would you have wanted her to have some protection from the murderer?
12/15/2012 01:06:20 AM · #144
the more likely headline of guns in a classroom would go like this:
"Student managed to get teacher's gun in class, accidentally fires and kills/maims self/other. Teacher fired. Why are there guns in our classrooms?"

Guns are not the answer.
I don't think there is an answer aside from "teach our children to handle life and not need to go off the deep end"
12/15/2012 01:11:26 AM · #145
Well, I am going to bed.

I would like to make sure that I leave on a high note.

My heart goes out to the victims of this terrible tragedy and to the people that are close to it like Shannon is. I am sure being 7 miles away that you possibly know of a parent, student, or victim that goes to this school and I am truly sorry that your town has had to go through this.
12/15/2012 01:17:14 AM · #146
It seem to me that people who want to kill go after the easy shots. (Watch the news any night of the week.)

Churches... schools... anywhere where guns are not allowed.

If I wanted to kill someone and not be harmed myself, I'd definitely look into where guns weren't allowed and start there.

Why in the world do we make that easiest/first place be where we send our beloved children?

I'm not saying I want to require teachers to do target practice and get carry permits. I just think that we certainly shouldn't DENY their right to protect themselves.

Or at the VERY least, not PUBLISH IT EVERYWHERE that these are the people who are... FOR DEFINITELY SURE.. are NOT the people who will shoot back if you try to kill the the children.

12/15/2012 01:21:55 AM · #147
Originally posted by bspurgeon:

To all, why bother with this conversation? It always ends the same way.

As they say, past history is no guarantee of future results. While we have had mass/school shootings before, they have increased in both frequency and horrifying scope. The extreme nature of this incident involving kindergartners right before Christmas, occurring outside the gun-fanatic western or rural states, virtually in the backyard of Michael Bloomberg and Carolyn McCarthy, while reducing the president to tears and Republicans to relative silence, suggests an environment for a very different outcome.

The myth of armed citizens thwarting bad guys outside of Hollywood fantasyland does not come remotely close to offsetting the number of home accidents, domestic violence incidents or weapons stolen and/or used against their owners, so the self-defense claims are not a even credible argument.
12/15/2012 01:24:50 AM · #148
"When the shooting began, [the 29 year old teacher] Roig said she quickly got up and closed her classroom door and ushered the children, all aged 6 and 7, into the class bathroom. She helped some climb onto the toilet so they could all fit. Roig said she then pushed a wheeled storage unit in front of the door.
"We all got in there. I locked us in," she said. "I don't know if [the gunman] came in the room... I just told them we have to be absolutely quiet."
"If they started crying, I would take their face and tell them, 'It's going to be OK,'" Roig continued. "I wanted that to be the last thing they heard, not the gunfire in the hall."
Roig said she just tried to stay strong for her students, but she didn't think they would make it out of the classroom alive.
"I thought we were all going to die," she said through tears....

The gunfire didn't last very long, Roig said, but even when it stopped, she refused to take the kids out of the bathroom. When she heard knocking on the door a little while later, she said heard voices saying they were police officers, but she refused to open the door. Scared it was the gunman trying to lure them out, Roig told them to slide their badges under the bathroom door to prove their identities.
"I didn't believe them," she said. "I told them if they were cops, they could get the key... They did and then unlocked the bathroom."

What would you have done, if YOU had had a gun at your feet and your back to twenty kindergartners piled up on toilet behind you and a gunman on the opposite side of the door?

Would you have picked up a legal (or ILLEGAL) gun conveniently at your feet? Or... would you have said then that "Guns are wrong. I will not shoot him even if he shoots all of us. That's barbaric."??

I think that EVERYONE has a breaking point. What is your breaking point about guns? How many of your loved ones does a murderer have to hold hostage until you cave and use the gun in your hand? What if it's Hitler before he kills millions? What? Is there NO instance that you would use a gun in your hand? Even if you knew that if you let him go... he'd detonate a nuclear bomb to end all of Humankind on all continents?


ETA credits. This is real life from today: By LAUREN EFFRON (@LEffron831) and NIKKI BATTISTE (@NikkiBattiste)

I am not in relative silence and I think almost every human is in tears over this horrific act of murder that a person has decided to do upon innocent people.


Message edited by author 2012-12-15 01:40:54.
12/15/2012 01:44:00 AM · #149
Originally posted by LydiaToo:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by LydiaToo:

I doubt that many of the dead kindergartner's parents agree with you tonight, Robert.

I don't think that's true, actually. I very much doubt that the average parent's respond to a disaster like this is "My God! Why aren't our teachers armed and trained in how to take down crazed assassins in the classroom?" And even if some of them DO think it, it's an irrational response.


Ok. So you think they're happy that their child's teacher didn't kill this murderer before he killed their child?

Did they want the child's teacher to sneeze on the murderer? Or what?

If your child had died today... innocently at school... while the teacher wanted to protect her ...

Would you be okay that the teacher was defenseless against the murderer? Or would you have wanted her to have some protection from the murderer?

If so, what protection would you want her to have... knowing ahead of time that there are people "out there" who might come in here today to try to kill me and these five-year-olds?

Or... are you okay with them huddling in the bathroom, with her trying to make them be "totally quiet" while a man with a gun is one door away?


Lets think about this for a second. Go with the solution that we arm this teacher and she is packing every day. Maybe we force her to take some gun training classes, but at the end of the day she isn't a navy seal, she is just a teacher. Some nut comes in her classroom shooting with a vest on. I'm betting you have about a 5% or 10% chance of her actually being able to handle the situation before she herself is killed.

5-10%, that is a hell of a lot better than 0%, but once you scale this so that every teacher in the country is armed, what chance to you have of accidental harm? After all these are not trained shooters, they are teachers.

Now lets take another approach....

What if we had gun lock laws, anytime a gun is not in your possession, it requires a trigger lock. Sure not everyone would obey the law, but in general most people follow laws. Even if only 75% of people followed this law, it would still reduce the likely hood of this happening at all by a whooping 75%!! Also don't give me this "but criminals don't follow the law" crap. This guy wasn't some hell bent criminal, he was simple a sick individual that opportunistically took his parents unsecured guns.
12/15/2012 02:22:40 AM · #150
Originally posted by bhuge:

Lets think about this for a second. Go with the solution that we arm this teacher and she is packing every day. Maybe we force her to take some gun training classes, but at the end of the day she isn't a navy seal, she is just a teacher. Some nut comes in her classroom shooting with a vest on. I'm betting you have about a 5% or 10% chance of her actually being able to handle the situation before she herself is killed.

An argument could be made that if a gunman knew teachers were armed, they wouldn't have picked this target in the first place.

All that aside - this is as it always is - people trying to make sense out of the senseless. The gun argument will go nowhere - it's like a painful broken record.
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