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12/15/2012 02:38:19 AM · #151
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

An argument could be made that if a gunman knew teachers were armed, they wouldn't have picked this target in the first place.

Because that proved so effective at Ft. Hood and Ft. Bragg with guns available and soldiers trained better than your average kindergarten teacher? This gunman had a bulletproof vest on because he was EXPECTING to be shot at, if not by a teacher or parent, then certainly with full knowledge that the police were armed, and he proceeded anyway. A person shooting himself to death probably isn't going to be deterred by someone else doing it.
12/15/2012 02:40:09 AM · #152
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by bhuge:

Lets think about this for a second. Go with the solution that we arm this teacher and she is packing every day. Maybe we force her to take some gun training classes, but at the end of the day she isn't a navy seal, she is just a teacher. Some nut comes in her classroom shooting with a vest on. I'm betting you have about a 5% or 10% chance of her actually being able to handle the situation before she herself is killed.

An argument could be made that if a gunman knew teachers were armed, they wouldn't have picked this target in the first place.


True, but I don't think I believe it would have made a difference. These shooters don't seem to be thinking rationally and they certainly are not acting rationally. I don't think the added danger of a teacher with a gun would have deterred him, he obviously wasn't planning on leaving alive anyway.

I live a short drive away from the Oregon mall shooting that happened a few days ago. I'm almost positive that the security guards there are armed, it clearly didn't deter that shooter.

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:


All that aside - this is as it always is - people trying to make sense out of the senseless. The gun argument will go nowhere - it's like a painful broken record.


I completely agree, I don't know why I get pulled into these arguments. I guess I just can't let something like this go by without pushing for some sort of change. I don't know the solution, but ignoring that there is a problem doesn't solve it.

eta: fix bad grammer

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 02:43:02.
12/15/2012 03:03:21 AM · #153
Originally posted by bhuge:

I don't know why I get pulled into these arguments. I guess I just can't let something like this go by without pushing for some sort of change. I don't know the solution, but ignoring that there is a problem doesn't solve it.

Ditto, and those arguing gun ownership for personal defense should consider the sobering thought that the guns involved may well have been purchased for that very reason.
12/15/2012 03:19:42 AM · #154
Gun control, in my view, is the issue here. Whilst Americans have the 'right to bear arms' what I do not understand is why some people find the 'need' for that to include semi-automatic weapons. Why would anyone 'need' one of these? I am genuinely curious to understand the reasoning behind this. Having a hand gun in your home to defend your family I can understand to some extent but a semi-automatic weapon?

A bullet from any weapon has the potential to kill but the fact that an semi-automatic weapon will spew out far more than a single shot weapon means the potential is there for much more damage.

I hope I am wrong but I just don't see much hope that gun law in the U.S. will change, it is just gotten out of hand to the extent nobody knows what to do and if they do then they just face massive barriers to prevent any meaningful or significant changes to be made.

12/15/2012 03:58:03 AM · #155
Isn't this the point where gun advocates post links to stats supporting their position and anti-gun advocates post theirs?

IMO, both viewpoints are valid, but the argument will not end. If tighter controls are placed, a heinous crime will be committed that falls in the cracks and the anti-gunners will demand tighter controls and on and on. I still think the most realistic and effective means of prevention is to remove the "Blaze of Glory" / "Live in Infamy" aspect of these crimes.
12/15/2012 05:14:58 AM · #156
One thing that no one has mentioned is mental health issues. The shooter had mental problems. There has been a serious cut to many mental health programs, affecting many people.

Perhaps if the Government concentrated on this more, we wouldn't see as many massacres like these?

12/15/2012 05:18:41 AM · #157
Originally posted by Ozzie:

Perhaps if the Government concentrated on this more, we wouldn't see as many massacres like these?

+1 Another good point and a more productive area of discussion, IMO.
12/15/2012 06:06:57 AM · #158
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by Ozzie:

Perhaps if the Government concentrated on this more, we wouldn't see as many massacres like these?

+1 Another good point and a more productive area of discussion, IMO.


+2

Also, and i'm going out on a limb here fully expecting to be highly disagreed with, i'd say that for America to start fixing its "culture of violence" then it's got to stop looking up to murderers. A nation that is built on colonial violence and teaches its children to admire that violence can't not have a "culture of violence." Likewise, a nation that admires its (highly aggressive) military more than any other institution can't not have a "culture of violence." A nation in which almost the entirety of the political and media class celebrates the commander-in-chief for ordering murders can't not have a "culture of violence." We in the West are pretty much conditioned into thinking that 'we are the good guys' but that's demonstrably untrue. I doubt there are any good guys. I'd suggest that a highly unstable mind might see the rank hypocrisy that is prevalent everywhere and draw its own, perhaps more nihilistic, conclusions.
12/15/2012 06:14:55 AM · #159
Originally posted by rooum:

fully expecting to be highly disagreed with

As you should. :P

Originally posted by rooum:

...A nation that is built on colonial violence...

Oh good Lord - it's been well over 200 years. Can't you just get over it already?? :P :P
12/15/2012 06:17:42 AM · #160
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:


Originally posted by rooum:

...A nation that is built on colonial violence...

Oh good Lord - it's been well over 200 years. Can't you just get over it already?? :P :P


Ha! Yes, well that point was slightly less serious than my others but i thought i'd throw it in anyway. ;) Also, i'll probably get stick for, um, sticking my nose in, not being American and all but i mentioned 'the West' because i think the same points hold for us on this side of the pond as well.

Anyway, i probably shouldn't have posted that as i do think the care for those with mental health problems issue is probably a more productive discussion at the moment. I hope i haven't derailed that discussion. Just thinking aloud!

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 06:24:00.
12/15/2012 09:36:09 AM · #161
Originally posted by LydiaToo:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by LydiaToo:

I doubt that many of the dead kindergartner's parents agree with you tonight, Robert.

I don't think that's true, actually. I very much doubt that the average parent's respond to a disaster like this is "My God! Why aren't our teachers armed and trained in how to take down crazed assassins in the classroom?" And even if some of them DO think it, it's an irrational response.


Ok. So you think they're happy that their child's teacher didn't kill this murderer before he killed their child?

Did they want the child's teacher to sneeze on the murderer? Or what?

If your child had died today... innocently at school... while the teacher wanted to protect her ...

Would you be okay that the teacher was defenseless against the murderer? Or would you have wanted her to have some protection from the murderer?

If so, what protection would you want her to have... knowing ahead of time that there are people "out there" who might come in here today to try to kill me and these five-year-olds?

Or... are you okay with them huddling in the bathroom, with her trying to make them be "totally quiet" while a man with a gun is one door away?


You are taking out your anger on the wrong person. You are verbally attacking a pacifist as if it's HIS fault some crazy hypothetical situation (armed teacher) didn't happen. It is completely inappropriate and misplaced.

Your scenario, as has been pointed out by others, has no basis in reality. We don't have time machines, and if we did, we wouldn't simply go back in time throw a handgun to the teacher. She saved those students by hiding. If she'd gone out guns blazing she would have gotten herself killed and drawn attention to her students, getting them killed. She did the right thing.


12/15/2012 10:07:12 AM · #162
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

I still think the most realistic and effective means of prevention is to remove the "Blaze of Glory" / "Live in Infamy" aspect of these crimes.


An interesting piece here on 'a Stephen King' law. 'We have laws against shouting fire in a crowded movie theater.'

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 10:09:09.
12/15/2012 10:21:55 AM · #163
Originally posted by rooum:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

I still think the most realistic and effective means of prevention is to remove the "Blaze of Glory" / "Live in Infamy" aspect of these crimes.


An interesting piece here on 'a Stephen King' law. 'We have laws against shouting fire in a crowded movie theater.'


Thank you for that. I wholeheartedly agree. I wish we weren't so obsessed with the very dregs of society. Could you imagine a media frenzy so long, sustained and detailed over someone that did something amazingly wonderful? I wish...
12/15/2012 11:04:42 AM · #164
Originally posted by rooum:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

I still think the most realistic and effective means of prevention is to remove the "Blaze of Glory" / "Live in Infamy" aspect of these crimes.


An interesting piece here on 'a Stephen King' law. 'We have laws against shouting fire in a crowded movie theater.'


Wow, is this article on point. We should start holding the "news" outlets accountable. They aren't just reporting any longer. They go out of there way to offer opinion prices that incite viewers leading to polarized society which increases ratings. That is what they are all about. If anyone of them complains about such legislation infringing on free press remind them they arent the press, they are an entertainment outlet. That themselves push the boundaries of free speech with their remarks in commentating.

I would love to see a ban on talk radio, and political commentary as well as unfact checked reporting. He'll let's even limit the amount if time a channel can report in a day. Viewers tune in so that they no longer need to think only regurgitate panthers opinion. These commentators and news outlets have far too much influence on people. Limit websites to hourly updates, editorials will still be allowed but only so many from any one person in one year.

We cant rely on ourselves to back off from our insatiable hunger of watching carnage and devastation. Someone needs to limit us from it.
12/15/2012 11:08:47 AM · #165
I just talked with a family member who was a first responder yesterday and is involved deeply. Can't say too much, but the news media can't fully express how bad the scene was.

Anyone who thinks that this type of violence can't be resolved without harsher gun controls is living in a world that is not part of any reality and is delusional at best. Yes, gun control alone will not stop this but without it our kids have no chance.
12/15/2012 11:17:23 AM · #166
Originally posted by PGerst:

I just talked with a family member who was a first responder yesterday and is involved deeply. Can't say too much, but the news media can't fully express how bad the scene was.

Anyone who thinks that this type of violence can't be resolved without harsher gun controls is living in a world that is not part of any reality and is delusional at best. Yes, gun control alone will not stop this but without it our kids have no chance.


Again, maybe, but guns aren't the problem and until we see that it's going to keep happening. Guns will always make massacres easier, but as the man in China proved, one only needs the will.

Start publicly ridiculing these people, or even better make it illegal to report their names or any aspect or their life.
12/15/2012 11:24:31 AM · #167
Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by PGerst:

I just talked with a family member who was a first responder yesterday and is involved deeply. Can't say too much, but the news media can't fully express how bad the scene was.

Anyone who thinks that this type of violence can't be resolved without harsher gun controls is living in a world that is not part of any reality and is delusional at best. Yes, gun control alone will not stop this but without it our kids have no chance.


Again, maybe, but guns aren't the problem and until we see that it's going to keep happening. Guns will always make massacres easier, but as the man in China proved, one only needs the will.

Start publicly ridiculing these people, or even better make it illegal to report their names or any aspect or their life.


All of the Chinese victims survived.
12/15/2012 11:28:54 AM · #168
I read the initial articles, now I'm done. I know longer care. I don't care what this guy's name was, his intent, nothing. I havent read a single article since yesterday afternoon, I havent watched the news, I know no new facts, nothing. I refuse to pay him or the situation he caused any more time than it deserves.

I feel incredibly sad for the victims and would do anything I could to make their loss easier to bear.

But this story and this piece of shit deserves no more of anyone's time. Turn of your TVs, go play with your kids if you have them, go outside, take pictures, enjoy life and the world.
12/15/2012 11:29:30 AM · #169
Duplicate post

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 11:30:20.
12/15/2012 11:29:53 AM · #170
Originally posted by PGerst:

I just talked with a family member who was a first responder yesterday and is involved deeply. Can't say too much, but the news media can't fully express how bad the scene was.

Anyone who thinks that this type of violence can't be resolved without harsher gun controls is living in a world that is not part of any reality and is delusional at best. Yes, gun control alone will not stop this but without it our kids have no chance.


Totally agree. And sorry you're having to deal with this so closely.
12/15/2012 11:32:55 AM · #171
Originally posted by PGerst:

I just talked with a family member who was a first responder yesterday and is involved deeply. Can't say too much, but the news media can't fully express how bad the scene was.

Anyone who thinks that this type of violence can't be resolved without harsher gun controls is living in a world that is not part of any reality and is delusional at best. Yes, gun control alone will not stop this but without it our kids have no chance.


Blaming guns if fine, yes if he did not have access to guns he would have had to find another avenue for his anger but the real issue is much deeper. We live in a time where people bring up kids with no moral compass, kids are not being taught to respect others and are being told they what they what and feel is more important than others. parents stick up for their kids even when they are in the wrong. When I was growing up we were held accountable for our actions, now you see it all the time where parents defend their kid when they are clearly in the wrong and need to be dealt with. So go ahead and keep blaming the weapons if you want but realize the problem is much deeper.
12/15/2012 11:35:35 AM · #172
Originally posted by escapetooz:



Your scenario, as has been pointed out by others, has no basis in reality. We don't have time machines, and if we did, we wouldn't simply go back in time throw a handgun to the teacher. She saved those students by hiding. If she'd gone out guns blazing she would have gotten herself killed and drawn attention to her students, getting them killed. She did the right thing.


Your post made me think of an interesting thought experiment. If one could go back in time, and had the following options, which would you choose:

1) Arm the teacher, give her training in the event that she may encounter a gunman one day.
2) Prevent the gunman from having access to guns.


12/15/2012 11:42:38 AM · #173
Originally posted by PapaBob:

Originally posted by PGerst:

I just talked with a family member who was a first responder yesterday and is involved deeply. Can't say too much, but the news media can't fully express how bad the scene was.

Anyone who thinks that this type of violence can't be resolved without harsher gun controls is living in a world that is not part of any reality and is delusional at best. Yes, gun control alone will not stop this but without it our kids have no chance.


Blaming guns if fine, yes if he did not have access to guns he would have had to find another avenue for his anger but the real issue is much deeper. We live in a time where people bring up kids with no moral compass, kids are not being taught to respect others and are being told they what they what and feel is more important than others. parents stick up for their kids even when they are in the wrong. When I was growing up we were held accountable for our actions, now you see it all the time where parents defend their kid when they are clearly in the wrong and need to be dealt with. So go ahead and keep blaming the weapons if you want but realize the problem is much deeper.


I agree with you that the problem is much deeper, and I think most people would on both sides of the gun argument do as well. Failing to recognize that is insulting to both sides. PGerst is certainly included in this. He absolutely did NOT "blame the weapons". If that's what you read, read again.

That being said, it's much more than parents. Yes there are crap parents out there, but they aren't the only factor. Plenty of kids with crap parents turn out amazing, and plenty of kids with amazing parents turn out crap. There are so many factors involved in how a person ends up. It's a dance of hundreds of little influences- family, friends, teachers, media, traumas, etc, etc. Incidents of senseless violence like this, the escalating cases of mental illness, are a symptom of far more than bad parenting.

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 11:44:43.
12/15/2012 11:42:50 AM · #174
Originally posted by PapaBob:

Blaming guns if fine, yes if he did not have access to guns he would have had to find another avenue for his anger but the real issue is much deeper. We live in a time where people bring up kids with no moral compass, kids are not being taught to respect others and are being told they what they what and feel is more important than others. parents stick up for their kids even when they are in the wrong. When I was growing up we were held accountable for our actions, now you see it all the time where parents defend their kid when they are clearly in the wrong and need to be dealt with. So go ahead and keep blaming the weapons if you want but realize the problem is much deeper.


I have to disagree with you. I think most parents, the vast majority, raise their kids with morals, and teach respect. At least the majority of parents I have met (I work with kids, so I have met many parents). I think that every DPC member who is a parent raises their kids with morals, and to be respectful. Its just that we are not the only ones influencing our kids. Kids are also influenced by each other, by entertainers, by media, etc.

So, while I agree that the problem is much deeper, we can't simply blame 'younger generations'. I find younger generations to be more nihilistic and pascifist than ever before. And its not so much blaming the guns, as it is recognizing that they are part of the problem. To say that guns are absent from the problem is nothing but willfull blindness.
12/15/2012 11:58:17 AM · #175
What I find most disturbing about this, the question I keep asking myself is how did he get in? My child's school is locked down like Ft. Knox. Every door is locked from the outside at all times. You must go to the front entrance, where you are visible from inside plus on live feed video (from the time you enter the parking lot you are visible on screen in the main office), and must be buzzed in to enter. Aren't all schools like this now?
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