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12/15/2012 12:27:12 PM · #176
Originally posted by Kelli:

What I find most disturbing about this, the question I keep asking myself is how did he get in? My child's school is locked down like Ft. Knox. Every door is locked from the outside at all times. You must go to the front entrance, where you are visible from inside plus on live feed video (from the time you enter the parking lot you are visible on screen in the main office), and must be buzzed in to enter. Aren't all schools like this now?


He forced his way in. The school was locked down.
12/15/2012 12:27:51 PM · #177
Originally posted by VitaminB:

Originally posted by PapaBob:

Blaming guns if fine, yes if he did not have access to guns he would have had to find another avenue for his anger but the real issue is much deeper. We live in a time where people bring up kids with no moral compass, kids are not being taught to respect others and are being told they what they what and feel is more important than others. parents stick up for their kids even when they are in the wrong. When I was growing up we were held accountable for our actions, now you see it all the time where parents defend their kid when they are clearly in the wrong and need to be dealt with. So go ahead and keep blaming the weapons if you want but realize the problem is much deeper.


I have to disagree with you. I think most parents, the vast majority, raise their kids with morals, and teach respect. At least the majority of parents I have met (I work with kids, so I have met many parents). I think that every DPC member who is a parent raises their kids with morals, and to be respectful. Its just that we are not the only ones influencing our kids. Kids are also influenced by each other, by entertainers, by media, etc.

So, while I agree that the problem is much deeper, we can't simply blame 'younger generations'. I find younger generations to be more nihilistic and pascifist than ever before. And its not so much blaming the guns, as it is recognizing that they are part of the problem. To say that guns are absent from the problem is nothing but willfull blindness.


I agree the vast majority of parents do a good job but as a society our moral compass has changed dramatically, I remember watching TV in the early seventies and my grandmother who never watched TV was sitting there while we watched a sitcom called "Soap", she turned to me and said this isn't a very nice show is it, to me and most people we would agree it was a very tame show but to her generation we were watching a morally corrupt show. How much more accepting are we with what kids watch today, I know my grandmother would turn in her grave if she saw what we watch today, heck I even call 9:00 TV on the networks the killing hour because all the shows start with a dead body lying around. What do kids begin to accept as normal from seeing this kind of activity everyday.

12/15/2012 12:33:25 PM · #178
Thanks...not as close as Shannon. I'm still holding off calling a friend of mine. I have his Christmas card right here....

Originally posted by PennyStreet:


Totally agree. And sorry you're having to deal with this so closely.
12/15/2012 12:34:40 PM · #179
I don't think you can simply point at countries with strict gun control laws and say, "That's the solution! More laws!"

Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. They did little, if anything to stand in the way of Anders Breivik, did they?

IMO, the more important issue is how we provide care for the mentally ill. Insurance coverage for mental illness, if available, is typically quite limited. Proper treatment can be far more expensive than all but the most wealthy families can afford. Quite often these people are simply cast out to live in the margins of our society while they sink further into the abyss with no safety net, no treatment and no hope.

Compare that to how mental illness is addressed in those European countries with low crime rates.
12/15/2012 12:37:49 PM · #180
Exactly....

The problem with laws and punishment is that they are effective only on those who can perceive that impact. Those with cases of mental illness as such do not perceive the consequences.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

the escalating cases of mental illness,
12/15/2012 12:39:52 PM · #181
Originally posted by Spork99:

I don't think you can simply point at countries with strict gun control laws and say, "That's the solution! More laws!"

Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. They did little, if anything to stand in the way of Anders Breivik, did they?

IMO, the more important issue is how we provide care for the mentally ill. Insurance coverage for mental illness, if available, is typically quite limited. Proper treatment can be far more expensive than all but the most wealthy families can afford. Quite often these people are simply cast out to live in the margins of our society while they sink further into the abyss with no safety net, no treatment and no hope.

Compare that to how mental illness is addressed in those European countries with low crime rates.


Def agree. I think that's still a bandage though, albeit a necessary one, not enough. We really have to go even deeper and think, why do we have so many mentally ill individuals in the first place? What can we do to prevent mental illness before it hits? A lot can be done, but we need to get away from the mindset we have on mental illness first, it's counterproductive.
12/15/2012 12:48:23 PM · #182
Originally posted by RKT:

Originally posted by Kelli:

What I find most disturbing about this, the question I keep asking myself is how did he get in? My child's school is locked down like Ft. Knox. Every door is locked from the outside at all times. You must go to the front entrance, where you are visible from inside plus on live feed video (from the time you enter the parking lot you are visible on screen in the main office), and must be buzzed in to enter. Aren't all schools like this now?


He forced his way in. The school was locked down.


Thanks. I had stopped reading/watching this yesterday because I couldn't watch without crying. My heart is just broken for these little kids and their families. I hugged my son so hard when he got home from school.
12/15/2012 12:52:45 PM · #183
Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Spork99:

I don't think you can simply point at countries with strict gun control laws and say, "That's the solution! More laws!"

Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. They did little, if anything to stand in the way of Anders Breivik, did they?

IMO, the more important issue is how we provide care for the mentally ill. Insurance coverage for mental illness, if available, is typically quite limited. Proper treatment can be far more expensive than all but the most wealthy families can afford. Quite often these people are simply cast out to live in the margins of our society while they sink further into the abyss with no safety net, no treatment and no hope.

Compare that to how mental illness is addressed in those European countries with low crime rates.


Def agree. I think that's still a bandage though, albeit a necessary one, not enough. We really have to go even deeper and think, why do we have so many mentally ill individuals in the first place? What can we do to prevent mental illness before it hits? A lot can be done, but we need to get away from the mindset we have on mental illness first, it's counterproductive.


Everyone argues over where the hole is in our society that allowed this to happen, is it gun laws? is it mental illness? parenting? media? In reality I don't think there is a single magic bullet that will fix the issue. Multiple things need to change, fixing one of the issues doesn't fix the problem. Unfortunately it's easier to argue over details of each than stepping back and taking a holistic view of the problem.
12/15/2012 01:01:08 PM · #184
Originally posted by bhuge:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Spork99:

I don't think you can simply point at countries with strict gun control laws and say, "That's the solution! More laws!"

Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. They did little, if anything to stand in the way of Anders Breivik, did they?

IMO, the more important issue is how we provide care for the mentally ill. Insurance coverage for mental illness, if available, is typically quite limited. Proper treatment can be far more expensive than all but the most wealthy families can afford. Quite often these people are simply cast out to live in the margins of our society while they sink further into the abyss with no safety net, no treatment and no hope.

Compare that to how mental illness is addressed in those European countries with low crime rates.


Def agree. I think that's still a bandage though, albeit a necessary one, not enough. We really have to go even deeper and think, why do we have so many mentally ill individuals in the first place? What can we do to prevent mental illness before it hits? A lot can be done, but we need to get away from the mindset we have on mental illness first, it's counterproductive.


Everyone argues over where the hole is in our society that allowed this to happen, is it gun laws? is it mental illness? parenting? media? In reality I don't think there is a single magic bullet that will fix the issue. Multiple things need to change, fixing one of the issues doesn't fix the problem. Unfortunately it's easier to argue over details of each than stepping back and taking a holistic view of the problem.


I didn't meant to imply that there was a single solution to a single problem. In fact I said in my past posts that it was hundreds of factors combined to make an individual turn out the way they do. Maybe a big irony I'm just thinking of now, is that the "magic bullet" or perhaps better put, biggest factor in finding a solution, IS to take a holistic view. We are very compartmental in the west, we have a hard time seeing the whole situation in a problem. We are VERY prone to the fundamental attribution error, which is something I want to bring up a lot in these debates but shy away from for fear of misunderstandings and backlashes.
12/15/2012 01:08:29 PM · #185
Originally posted by escapetooz:



I didn't meant to imply that there was a single solution to a single problem. In fact I said in my past posts that it was hundreds of factors combined to make an individual turn out the way they do. Maybe a big irony I'm just thinking of now, is that the "magic bullet" or perhaps better put, biggest factor in finding a solution, IS to take a holistic view. We are very compartmental in the west, we have a hard time seeing the whole situation in a problem. We are VERY prone to the fundamental attribution error, which is something I want to bring up a lot in these debates but shy away from for fear of misunderstandings and backlashes.


Sorry I didn't intend to target your specific comment. I guess comments in general (including my own) tend to target a single solution and we argue over which solution is best, when in fact we should be arguing over which "set" of solutions work best.
12/15/2012 07:04:48 PM · #186
This is all very predictable; the usual stock phrases and statistics being thrown around by both sides, in the same way as they were after the previous massacres. Which usually ends in a circular arguments until things 'die down' again.

Except this time, things are different.
12/15/2012 07:05:08 PM · #187
Originally posted by PGerst:

Thanks...not as close as Shannon. I'm still holding off calling a friend of mine. I have his Christmas card right here...

Hope they were OK! I'm close enough that I could see and hear the helicopters overhead yesterday. My wife's boss had a kid in that school when this happened. Another friend, a kindergarten teacher(!), also had a child at that school. One of the victims rode my neighbor's horse. We know many of those involved directly or indirectly. A friend of mine was there this morning and relayed a story of parents pondering how to break the news to their little girl that her playgroup was wiped out. There are signs and billboards and ribbons everywhere expressing sympathy and support, but this will not soon fade.
12/15/2012 07:13:16 PM · #188
One would presume the shooter's first victim had access to guns as the guns the shooter used belonged to her. Didn't seem to help in stopping the tragedy...
12/15/2012 07:14:58 PM · #189
Originally posted by escapetooz:



Def agree. I think that's still a bandage though, albeit a necessary one, not enough. We really have to go even deeper and think, why do we have so many mentally ill individuals in the first place? What can we do to prevent mental illness before it hits? A lot can be done, but we need to get away from the mindset we have on mental illness first, it's counterproductive.


+1

Message edited by author 2012-12-17 21:15:27.
12/15/2012 07:32:21 PM · #190
Let me be clear here. I'm very much against guns being as prolific as they are. The bullshit defeatist "if guns are illegal, only criminals will have them" argument is so abundantly wrong-headed it defies belief, IMHO. Just look at the gun statistics in England compared to the the US and you have a compelling argument.

However.

When you're looking for reasons why one society in particular has a record of atrocities like this, the first place to look is what makes that society unique. The famous NRA quote "It's not guns that kill people, people kill people" was an attempt to deflect criticism from the penis extending male bravado, but like all good propaganda it contains a kernel of truth. The real question then is "why are these people killing each other ?"

The real reason people are using guns to kill themselves and others is the society that they live in. The cold hard truth is that guns are available worldwide, and yet it's a peculiarly American thing (with some outliers) to go crazy and kill a bunch of children/people using your personal arsenal. What's wrong is deeper, I believe.

IMHO American society is in a slow but inevitable death spiral...

The prevailing cry when social healthcare was proposed goes along the lines of "why should my tax dollars pay for your healthcare"
The attitude that it's "every (wo)man for themselves", and you get ahead by screwing others. Sit up at the back there, Wall St.
The violence inherent in the main sport - American football is more about the crunching tackles than any skill.
The "jocks" vs nerds attitude embodies the whole "might is right" credo. This is a society-wide meme and science is losing the popular vote.
That corporations attempt to squeeze every last drop of blood out of the stone, leading to a significant erosion of the medium skill tiers, with more low-paid, low-satisfaction jobs to support the higher-ups without providing any competition to them
An ever more militaristic police system. Tasering, SWAT teams, armed police everywhere. It's just bad.
The highest incarceration rate in the world (743 from every 100,000). Worse than China. About 80% of those are "Christian"...
It's hard to reconcile that Americans give generously to charities with the first two points above, unless it's just Democrats doing the giving; which is unlikely :). I'd have to posit a discontinuity between the act of giving, and the way of living. It's as if people are ok with being nice to others if they choose to, but refuse to have the general good of society imposed upon them. That's a very odd form of independence, and smacks of biting off your nose to spite your face, but since I don't understand the motivation, I may have it completely wrong there. What's clear is that charitable donation is important to Americans, but charitable society is not.

Religion also plays its part. The society is highly religious, relative to the developed world but religion here in the US is a business like any other. The prime goal is not to try and guide society in the right direction, it's to funnel cash to the higher-ups in the religious power structure. People are told they're doing the right thing as long as the cash is flowing upwards,and the "church"'s goal is simply to continue to make sure that is the case. Upon examination, it's a good metaphor for what's wrong in the more-general society.

It adds up to an uncaring society, and I can see how anyone stuck on the lower rungs with seemingly no prospect of getting higher up could reject it, and similarly reject the rest of the social rules we all expect to be obeyed. There's no golden solution here, no panacea, you're not guaranteed anything will ever be perfect, but if the society had more general welfare built in, it's my personal belief there'd be less atrocities.

A society is by definition a group of people collectively living by a set of rules. Ask any evolutionary theorist what's important, and (s)he'll tell you it's the rules of the game and the boundary conditions imposed by the environment. The environment in the USA needs a lot of attention IMHO. It's forcing the society down some unwholesomely bad paths.

Just IMHO, as an outsider looking in.

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 19:33:08.
12/15/2012 07:37:36 PM · #191
Originally posted by Venser:

The cold hard truth is that guns are available worldwide, and yet it's a peculiarly American thing (with some outliers) to go crazy and kill a bunch of children/people using your personal arsenal.

Sorry, I stopped reading after that flawed statement.

April 1982 - SOUTH KOREA - A police officer went on a drunken rampage in Sang-Namdo with rifles and hand grenades, killing 57 people and wounding 38 before blowing himself up.

August 19, 1987 - BRITAIN - A 27-year-old gunman rampaged through the English town of Hungerford, killing 16 people and wounding 11 before shooting himself.

July 1989 - FRANCE - A French farmer shot and killed 14 people including members of his family in the village of Luxiol, near the Swiss border. He was wounded and captured by police.

December 1989 - CANADA - A 25-year-old war movie fan with a grudge against women shot dead 14 young women at the University of Montreal, then killed himself.

November 1990 - NEW ZEALAND - A gun-mad loner killed 11 men, women and children in a 24-hour rampage in the seaside village of Aramoana. He was killed by police.

September 1995 - FRANCE - A 16-year-old youth ran amok with a rifle in the town of Cuers, killing 16 people and then himself after an argument with his parents.

March 13, 1996 - BRITAIN - A gunman burst into a primary school in the Scottish town of Dunblane and shot dead 16 children and their teacher before killing himself.

April 28, 1996 - AUSTRALIA - A gunman unleashed modern Australia's worst mass murder when he shot dead 35 people at the Port Arthur tourist site in the southern state of Tasmania.

April 1999 - USA - Two heavily-armed teenagers went on a rampage at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado, killing 13 students and staff before taking their own lives.

July 1999 - USA - A gunman killed nine people at two brokerages in Atlanta, after apparently killing his wife and two children. He committed suicide five hours later.

June 2001 - NEPAL - Eight members of the Nepalese Royal family were killed in a palace massacre by Crown Prince Dipendra who later turned a gun on himself and died few days later. His youngest brother also died later raising the death toll to 10.

April 26, 2002 - GERMANY - In Erfurt, eastern Germany, a 19-year-old gunman opened fire at a school, killing 12 teachers, a secretary, two students and a policeman before killing himself.

October 2002 - USA - Two men killed 10 people in sniper-style shooting deaths that terrorized the Washington, D.C., area.

April 16, 2007 - USA - A gunman killed 32 people and himself at Virginia Tech, a university in Blacksburg, Virginia.

September 23, 2008 - FINLAND - A student opened fire in a vocational school in Kauhajoki in northwest Finland, killing nine other students and one staff member, then killed himself.

March 11, 2009 - GERMANY - A 17-year-old gunman dressed in black combat gear killed nine students and three teachers at a school near Stuttgart. He also killed one other person at a nearby clinic. He was later killed in a shoot-out with police.

November 5, 2009 - USA - A gunman opened fire at Fort Hood, a U.S. Army base in Texas, killing 13 people and wounding 31. An Army major is charged in connection with the rampage.

June 2, 2010 - BRITAIN - A gunman opened fire on people in towns across the rural county of Cumbria. Twelve people were killed and 11 injured. The gunman then killed himself.

July 22, 2011 - NORWAY - A gunman blew up a government building in Oslo and then opened fire at a youth summer camp of Norway's ruling political party, on the holiday island of Utoeya, killing 77 people.

July 20, 2012 - USA - A masked gunman killed 12 people and wounded 58 when he opened fire on moviegoers at a showing of the Batman film "The Dark Knight Rises" in Aurora, a suburb of Denver.

August 5, 2012 - USA - A gunman opened fire during Sunday services at a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. He killed six people before he was shot dead by police.

December 14, 2012 - USA - A heavily armed gunman killed at least 20 children and six adults at an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, and a body was found elsewhere in the town. The gunman was also dead.

(Writing by David Cutler, London Editorial Reference Unit; Editing by Mohammad Zargham)
12/15/2012 07:43:13 PM · #192
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Sorry, I stopped reading after that flawed statement.
Your ability to understand statistics sucks balls looking at your response.
Glad we're moving forward with addressing the reasons of these tragedies from happening.

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 19:44:00.
12/15/2012 07:43:55 PM · #193
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Sorry, I stopped reading after that flawed statement.
Your ability to understand statistics sucks balls looking at your response.

You said "peculiarly American" - it is not.

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 19:44:10.
12/15/2012 07:45:02 PM · #194
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Sorry, I stopped reading after that flawed statement.
Your ability to understand statistics sucks balls looking at your response.

You said "peculiarly American" - it is not.

You edited that one pretty quick. I'm positive it said uniquely two seconds ago. Big difference.
12/15/2012 07:46:23 PM · #195
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Sorry, I stopped reading after that flawed statement.
Your ability to understand statistics sucks balls looking at your response.
Glad we're moving forward with addressing the reasons of these tragedies from happening.

I am rarely in agreement with your take on these issues and as you said yourself, yours is an outsiders opinion as far as our culture (good and bad). I've proposed (several times) that the discussion be focused on something we can agree on - and that is removing the celebrity status motive.
12/15/2012 07:47:07 PM · #196
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Sorry, I stopped reading after that flawed statement.
Your ability to understand statistics sucks balls looking at your response.

You said "peculiarly American" - it is not.

You edited that one pretty quick. I'm positive it said uniquely two seconds ago. Big difference.

Not a big difference, but yes, I originally misquoted.
12/15/2012 07:47:17 PM · #197
Also, you're missing lots of shootings.
What about the governor of Arizona? I know there's others, but if you want to be selective for your stats, then there's no point in discussing this further.
12/15/2012 07:51:47 PM · #198
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Sorry, I stopped reading after that flawed statement.
This is also the issue of why nothing gets done in the US. Numbnuts stop listening the minute they hear one thing they don't agree with rather then listening and trying to come to a consensus on the issues. Have open dialogue and discourse, it often move the goal posts around to get something done..

When you write something like that, I'm going to treat you like a idiot. It's what they do.

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 19:52:46.
12/15/2012 07:56:14 PM · #199
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Sorry, I stopped reading after that flawed statement.
This is also the issue of why nothing gets done in the US. Numbnuts stop listening the minute they hear one thing they don't agree with rather then listening and trying to come to a consensus on the issues. Have open dialogue and discourse, it often move the goal posts around to get something done..

When you write something like that, I'm going to treat you like a idiot. It's what they do.

Man, you can't get all the way through a sentence without using some off-color language. Just so you know, this immediately defeats any legitimate point you may be trying to make. I've also come to the point I tune out any and all you say, becuase you are unable or unwilling to engage in a civilized discussion. It's pitiful. Your comments are inflammatory and combative. Give it a rest for a few months, or years.

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 19:56:37.
12/15/2012 08:00:37 PM · #200
Originally posted by hahn23:

Man, you can't get all the way through a sentence without using some off-color language. Just so you know, this immediately defeats any legitimate point you may be trying to make. I've also come to the point I tune out any and all you say, becuase you are unable or unwilling to engage in a civilized discussion. It's pitiful. Your comments are inflammatory and combative. Give it a rest for a few months, or years.
At least read the initial comment that caused Art to respond. Nothing but merit in there and yet he brought it down this path.

If you're going to dismiss an entire comment based on something which carries some weight, you are an idiot, full stop. This is why politics are terrible, it stoops to this level of discourse all the time. Yet the voters eat that shit up.

edit - I plan on renewing just for you Richard. Love voting in challenges.

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 20:22:36.
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