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12/15/2012 08:03:24 PM · #201
At the risk of running an "infomercial" for Glock, let me refer you to this article which describes the evolution of this instrument.

And forgive me Venser, for perhaps interrupting your train of thought, but let's think of at least some small portion of the solution to this horrendous problem that confronts our country: that of assault weapons in the hands of people who would do harm to innocents. (I will dwell on this heinous crime long enough only to say that the Glock, apparently, does not leave wounded survivors, even 5-year-olds)

My suggestion is to write to our members of congress, senators, and naturally, the President, saying we have reached the tipping point on this subject. In my case, it will be preaching to the choir, because it was my senator, Diane Feinstein, who wrote the initial legislation banning assault weapons for ten years. Unfortunately, those years have passed; ten years was all she was able to get. NRA and other nay-sayers defeated a renewal of this effort.

Maybe it's time to start chipping away at the problem with at least an assault weapons ban.

And maybe we can do something to help. If only write a letter, write an email, or even use the phone to contact the persons who say they represent us. If you don't know who they are, well, the Internet is your friend.

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 20:18:46.
12/15/2012 08:03:28 PM · #202
Originally posted by Venser:

Also, you're missing lots of shootings.
What about the governor of Arizona? I know there's others, but if you want to be selective for your stats, then there's no point in discussing this further.

Yeah, I just grabbed the first thing that showed that the problem is not "peculiarly American" - I'll grant you that statistically, it is largely an American problem, but there are a lot of factors that go into that. While I respect your views, on this issue I find them over-generalizing, ignorant and ultimately unproductive. ...although, arguably my contributions also seem to be unproductive so I'll step away and let everyone else shoot it out. (so to speak)
12/15/2012 08:27:34 PM · #203
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by Venser:

Also, you're missing lots of shootings.
What about the governor of Arizona? I know there's others, but if you want to be selective for your stats, then there's no point in discussing this further.

Yeah, I just grabbed the first thing that showed that the problem is not "peculiarly American" - I'll grant you that statistically, it is largely an American problem, but there are a lot of factors that go into that. While I respect your views, on this issue I find them over-generalizing, ignorant and ultimately unproductive. ...although, arguably my contributions also seem to be unproductive so I'll step away and let everyone else shoot it out. (so to speak)


Saw this on the HuffPost site:
Interactive Map of Mass Shooting in US since 2005
12/15/2012 08:38:26 PM · #204
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Sorry, I stopped reading after that flawed statement.
This is also the issue of why nothing gets done in the US. Numbnuts stop listening the minute they hear one thing they don't agree with rather then listening and trying to come to a consensus on the issues. Have open dialogue and discourse, it often move the goal posts around to get something done..

When you write something like that, I'm going to treat you like a idiot. It's what they do.


I'm sooo staying out of this discussion... However... ... ... Dammit, Art you're a great guy, yet Venser really does have you here. I fricken HATE the TL;DR society we have become.
12/15/2012 08:40:34 PM · #205
Originally posted by VitaminB:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by Venser:

Also, you're missing lots of shootings.
What about the governor of Arizona? I know there's others, but if you want to be selective for your stats, then there's no point in discussing this further.

Yeah, I just grabbed the first thing that showed that the problem is not "peculiarly American" - I'll grant you that statistically, it is largely an American problem, but there are a lot of factors that go into that. While I respect your views, on this issue I find them over-generalizing, ignorant and ultimately unproductive. ...although, arguably my contributions also seem to be unproductive so I'll step away and let everyone else shoot it out. (so to speak)


Saw this on the HuffPost site:
Interactive Map of Mass Shooting in US since 2005


Interesting, ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Vitaminb, 2005. The year after the Assault Weapon ban I referred to a post or two ago expired.
12/15/2012 08:41:53 PM · #206
Originally posted by VitaminB:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by Venser:

Also, you're missing lots of shootings.
What about the governor of Arizona? I know there's others, but if you want to be selective for your stats, then there's no point in discussing this further.

Yeah, I just grabbed the first thing that showed that the problem is not "peculiarly American" - I'll grant you that statistically, it is largely an American problem, but there are a lot of factors that go into that. While I respect your views, on this issue I find them over-generalizing, ignorant and ultimately unproductive. ...although, arguably my contributions also seem to be unproductive so I'll step away and let everyone else shoot it out. (so to speak)


Saw this on the HuffPost site:
Interactive Map of Mass Shooting in US since 2005


I'd like to point out that guns are about like water in New Mexico. (anywhere there's people you'll find both in sufficient quantities) Yet. Take a look again at that map.

Ok, I'm out. Really know this is going nowhere. Poor kids, what a fucked mess..

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 20:53:52.
12/15/2012 08:46:15 PM · #207
Originally posted by Cory:

I'm sooo staying out of this discussion... However... ... ... Dammit, Art you're a great guy, yet Venser really does have you here. I fricken HATE the TL;DR society we have become.
It's cool. Art and I talked it out over PMs and I formally apologized to him for my level of discourse.
12/15/2012 08:53:12 PM · #208
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Cory:

I'm sooo staying out of this discussion... However... ... ... Dammit, Art you're a great guy, yet Venser really does have you here. I fricken HATE the TL;DR society we have become.
It's cool. Art and I talked it out over PMs and I formally apologized to him for my level of discourse.


Awww. You guys should go get ice cream. ;)
12/15/2012 08:59:52 PM · #209
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by VitaminB:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

[quote=Venser]


Saw this on the HuffPost site:
Interactive Map of Mass Shooting in US since 2005


I'd like to point out that guns are about like water in New Mexico. (anywhere there's people you'll find both in sufficient quantities) Yet. Take a look again at that map.

Ok, I'm out. Really know this is going nowhere. Poor kids, what a fucked mess..


Awww, Cory, I see, by that map, that there were NO shootings in New Mexico. So your bailiwick is safe. But did you see all those big yellow dots in the remaining 49 states? Maybe we should enact a bill where everyone except New Mexico should not use assault weapons? Okay, that was silly - but think of the greater good for the country.

And as you say, poor kids.
12/15/2012 09:07:16 PM · #210
I just read the list of names, and his was not on it.

Very tough for these kids too. They are at an age where they will remember this and it will affect them.

This will definitely not fade. I don't know about other towns, but ours (Colchester) is holding a Vigil tomorrow night.

I grew up in The Valley, there will sure be lots of talk at Christmas dinner this year.

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by PGerst:

Thanks...not as close as Shannon. I'm still holding off calling a friend of mine. I have his Christmas card right here...

Hope they were OK! I'm close enough that I could see and hear the helicopters overhead yesterday. My wife's boss had a kid in that school when this happened. Another friend, a kindergarten teacher(!), also had a child at that school. One of the victims rode my neighbor's horse. We know many of those involved directly or indirectly. A friend of mine was there this morning and relayed a story of parents pondering how to break the news to their little girl that her playgroup was wiped out. There are signs and billboards and ribbons everywhere expressing sympathy and support, but this will not soon fade.
12/15/2012 09:15:24 PM · #211
Thanks for posting that.

Originally posted by Cory:


Saw this on the HuffPost site:
Interactive Map of Mass Shooting in US since 2005
12/15/2012 09:16:54 PM · #212
Originally posted by sfalice:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by VitaminB:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

[quote=Venser]


Saw this on the HuffPost site:
Interactive Map of Mass Shooting in US since 2005


I'd like to point out that guns are about like water in New Mexico. (anywhere there's people you'll find both in sufficient quantities) Yet. Take a look again at that map.

Ok, I'm out. Really know this is going nowhere. Poor kids, what a fucked mess..


Awww, Cory, I see, by that map, that there were NO shootings in New Mexico. So your bailiwick is safe. But did you see all those big yellow dots in the remaining 49 states? Maybe we should enact a bill where everyone except New Mexico should not use assault weapons? Okay, that was silly - but think of the greater good for the country.

And as you say, poor kids.


The thing with that map is context too. NJ has a few dots. Yet it is extremely hard to get a legal gun in NJ. I clicked on the dots to get the context. Camden is one of the most dangerous cities in the US (makes the list every year and has topped it numerous times and currently has a record number of homicides this year). You can probably buy a gun on any street corner there. That shooting was domestic. One of the other cites was Lindenwold. That is the next town over from where I live and that shooting happened right down the street from my house. Lindenwold for all intents and purposes is little Camden. That shooting was drug related (I remember it, it wasn't long ago). The same with Atlantic City, outside of the resort areas it's a ghetto. But if you are anywhere else in NJ outside of these ghetto cities, you don't even think about guns here.

When I was a child my grandfather used to keep a .38 under his mattress. Loaded. We all knew it was there. No one dared touch it. Yet one Christmas when I was a child after my uncle came home from Vietnam he was a mess. He got really drunk that year and snuck upstairs and got the gun. He was in the kitchen waving it around at everyone. My mother knocked him cold with a cast iron frying pan. My grandfather locked up the gun after that. It stuck in my head. I'll never forget it. I've been terrified of guns since then. I don't have one in my house. But my point is, my grandfather recognized that my uncle was no longer quite right in the head and took precautions after that. I don't want to take away people's rights. But, at the same time, I shouldn't have to fear for my children or anyone else's children at school. I don't know what the answer is, but I hope someone comes up with a real solution.

12/15/2012 09:19:03 PM · #213
Hmm...maybe perhaps with the low population density of New Mexico the bullet hits the ground before it ever reaches a person? *snicker*

Just a contrast, according to Wikipedia
NM 6 least densely populated state
CT 4 most densely populated state

Originally posted by sfalice:


Awww, Cory, I see, by that map, that there were NO shootings in New Mexico.
12/15/2012 09:25:58 PM · #214
Originally posted by PGerst:

Hmm...maybe perhaps with the low population density of New Mexico the bullet hits the ground before it ever reaches a person? *snicker*

Just a contrast, according to Wikipedia
NM 6 least densely populated state
CT 4 most densely populated state

Originally posted by sfalice:


Awww, Cory, I see, by that map, that there were NO shootings in New Mexico.


Well, schools and theaters are packed about the same. ;) But yeah, that's one reason guns are good to own in NM, and useless in some places for the most part.
...

Sure, I think that's a fair and real point.

I think people, in general, care about each other more and are nicer to each other in NM than in some states. It's a side effect of small communities I suspect.

To be fair, there was a work-place shooting in ABQ a few years ago, so we really aren't immune. Still, I do think a good percentage of this sort of incident are directed related to the real or perceived mistreatment of the shooter by society at large and the subsequent desire to inflict a disproportionate amount of pain upon the perceived attacker.

I really think if we were all better to each other, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.

You'll notice the one constant is that most of these incidents occur in cities or suburbs.

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 21:28:34.
12/15/2012 10:46:15 PM · #215
Another bit about context that I think a lot of people in the regulate/don't regulate either don't know, choose to ignore, or just didn't think about -- according to the map linked to, it appears, largely, that a lot of "mass shootings" happen in more urban areas. This could have several causes, not the least of which is more people, but also consider -- here in Western North Carolina (Southern Appalachians) it seems like almost everyone has guns. It is truly a normal part of life and many of the kids are taught to shoot/hunt (and proper handling of guns) at an early age. You may thing that is horrific, and that is your right, but around here it's how it is. (and MANY of the families use the meat and don't have to buy any, or very little -- it's very practical).

When I see how many "mass shootings" occur in the Appalachian mountains I wonder if it is because guns are largely seen as recreational devices, or tools for feeding the family, and not weapons?

I offer this, not as a pro-gun argument, or to stir that pot any more, but to try to offer a possible explanation why at least some "gun rights" people feel as they feel.

(now, hunting accidents involving guns -- THAT is a different story, and usually involves downright stupidity, and *that* can't be legislated)

Message edited by author 2012-12-15 22:48:03.
12/15/2012 11:24:41 PM · #216
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by PGerst:

Hmm...maybe perhaps with the low population density of New Mexico the bullet hits the ground before it ever reaches a person? *snicker*

Just a contrast, according to Wikipedia
NM 6 least densely populated state
CT 4 most densely populated state

Originally posted by sfalice:


Awww, Cory, I see, by that map, that there were NO shootings in New Mexico.


Well, schools and theaters are packed about the same. ;) But yeah, that's one reason guns are good to own in NM, and useless in some places for the most part.
...

Sure, I think that's a fair and real point.

I think people, in general, care about each other more and are nicer to each other in NM than in some states. It's a side effect of small communities I suspect.

To be fair, there was a work-place shooting in ABQ a few years ago, so we really aren't immune. Still, I do think a good percentage of this sort of incident are directed related to the real or perceived mistreatment of the shooter by society at large and the subsequent desire to inflict a disproportionate amount of pain upon the perceived attacker.

I really think if we were all better to each other, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.

You'll notice the one constant is that most of these incidents occur in cities or suburbs.


There are a lot of studies being done on "bright spots" in sociology and psychology. For example, if you have a certain demographic suffering from malnutrition, seek those in the same demographic NOT suffering from it to find the solution. AKA: Seek the solution to the problem not by studying the problem, but by studying where the problem is absent.

The same applies to mental health. We've studied those with mental illness top to bottom and it's lead to the atrocities of mental wards, shock therapy, rampant over-medication, charlatan "experts" manipulating their patients, etc. Now finally, the mentally healthy, the mentally exceptional are being studied. Let's find out how to help everyone reach their maximum potential as opposed to just trying to make our mentally ill "passable" in society.

Switch is a great book on these topics. We want to turn the discourse away from guns, this would be a good place to start.
12/15/2012 11:45:03 PM · #217
Originally posted by sfalice:

I see, by that map, that there were NO shootings in New Mexico. So your bailiwick is safe.


Not so safe as you might think. The map reports on mass shootings -- apparently those instances with at least 4 victims. These get media attention. But many more shootings are single victim incidents. New Mexico had 198 murders in 2009, at least half by firearm if 2004 percentages hold. Someone probably has more recent statistics. But no mass shooting is not the same as "no shootings."

In the US there were 11,493 firearm homicides in 2009. That would average to more than 31 every day. Not a pretty picture, espceially if you add on top of that the annual firearm suicides (typically more than the homicides) and the annual non-lethal firearm injuries. Dismal background information for the current horrible news.

12/15/2012 11:57:54 PM · #218
Originally posted by bob350:

Originally posted by sfalice:

I see, by that map, that there were NO shootings in New Mexico. So your bailiwick is safe.


Not so safe as you might think. The map reports on mass shootings -- apparently those instances with at least 4 victims. These get media attention. But many more shootings are single victim incidents. New Mexico had 198 murders in 2009, at least half by firearm if 2004 percentages hold. Someone probably has more recent statistics. But no mass shooting is not the same as "no shootings."

In the US there were 11,493 firearm homicides in 2009. That would average to more than 31 every day. Not a pretty picture, espceially if you add on top of that the annual firearm suicides (typically more than the homicides) and the annual non-lethal firearm injuries. Dismal background information for the current horrible news.


First, most of those occurred in urban areas. Secondly, even by that admission, you are about 2.4 times less likely to be shot down in NM than the nationwide average given the numbers you have provided.

So, 2.4 times less likely to be killed by a firearm, no mass shootings to speak of (except one in ABQ that did kill three people), and yet firearm ownership percentages are quite high, and we have a fairly permissive concealed carry policy...

Now, given all of that, I think it's reasonable that we look to the factors that are common to these incidents, and the prevalence of guns isn't really the consistent factor.

Population density seems to me to be the common factor.
12/16/2012 02:13:08 AM · #219
Originally posted by karmat:

...guns are largely seen as recreational devices, or tools for feeding the family, and not weapons

A license, trigger locks and limits on extended capacity magazines wouldn't curtail any of these activities.
12/16/2012 02:16:25 AM · #220
Originally posted by Cory:

I think it's reasonable that we look to the factors that are common to these incidents, and the prevalence of guns isn't really the consistent factor.

Population density seems to me to be the common factor.

Japan, Canada, Great Britain and Germany disprove your hypothesis.
12/16/2012 02:45:57 AM · #221
Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by PGerst:

Hmm...maybe perhaps with the low population density of New Mexico the bullet hits the ground before it ever reaches a person? *snicker*

Just a contrast, according to Wikipedia
NM 6 least densely populated state
CT 4 most densely populated state

Originally posted by sfalice:


Awww, Cory, I see, by that map, that there were NO shootings in New Mexico.


Well, schools and theaters are packed about the same. ;) But yeah, that's one reason guns are good to own in NM, and useless in some places for the most part.
...

Sure, I think that's a fair and real point.

I think people, in general, care about each other more and are nicer to each other in NM than in some states. It's a side effect of small communities I suspect.

To be fair, there was a work-place shooting in ABQ a few years ago, so we really aren't immune. Still, I do think a good percentage of this sort of incident are directed related to the real or perceived mistreatment of the shooter by society at large and the subsequent desire to inflict a disproportionate amount of pain upon the perceived attacker.

I really think if we were all better to each other, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.

You'll notice the one constant is that most of these incidents occur in cities or suburbs.


There are a lot of studies being done on "bright spots" in sociology and psychology. For example, if you have a certain demographic suffering from malnutrition, seek those in the same demographic NOT suffering from it to find the solution. AKA: Seek the solution to the problem not by studying the problem, but by studying where the problem is absent.

The same applies to mental health. We've studied those with mental illness top to bottom and it's lead to the atrocities of mental wards, shock therapy, rampant over-medication, charlatan "experts" manipulating their patients, etc. Now finally, the mentally healthy, the mentally exceptional are being studied. Let's find out how to help everyone reach their maximum potential as opposed to just trying to make our mentally ill "passable" in society.

Switch is a great book on these topics. We want to turn the discourse away from guns, this would be a good place to start.


So in other words, don't study Americans?
12/16/2012 06:19:07 AM · #222
Originally posted by Cory:

First, most of those occurred in urban areas.


Top ten states with highest fire arm fatalities per 10,000 people.
# 1 District of Columbia: 31.2
# 2 Alaska: 20
# 3 Louisiana: 19.5
# 4 Wyoming: 18.8
# 5 Arizona: 18
= 6 Nevada: 17.3
= 6 Mississippi: 17.3
# 8 New Mexico: 16.6
# 9 Arkansas: 16.3
# 10 Alabama: 16.2

So with the exception of DC, lower population states mean you are more likely to die from a firearm.

Compare that with the last 10 on the list, a much more densely populated group of states.

# 42 Iowa: 6.7
# 43 Maine: 6.5
# 44 Minnesota: 6
# 45 New Hampshire: 5.8
= 46 Rhode Island: 5.1
= 46 New York: 5.1
# 48 New Jersey: 4.9
# 49 Connecticut: 4.3
# 50 Massachusetts: 3.1
# 51 Hawaii: 2.8

12/16/2012 08:18:24 AM · #223
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Cory:

I think it's reasonable that we look to the factors that are common to these incidents, and the prevalence of guns isn't really the consistent factor.

Population density seems to me to be the common factor.

Japan, Canada, Great Britain and Germany disprove your hypothesis.

Saw this one on Facebook. Not sure it is correct, but if so it really is sad.
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/145000-149999/147314/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1045398.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/145000-149999/147314/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1045398.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
12/16/2012 08:40:34 AM · #224
Originally posted by Cory:

Now, given all of that, I think it's reasonable that we look to the factors that are common to these incidents, and the prevalence of guns isn't really the consistent factor.

Population density seems to me to be the common factor.


The one consistent factor in all gun murders is guns. I can guarantee that guns are more consistent in gun murders than population density.

Originally posted by Kroburg:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Cory:

I think it's reasonable that we look to the factors that are common to these incidents, and the prevalence of guns isn't really the consistent factor.

Population density seems to me to be the common factor.

Japan, Canada, Great Britain and Germany disprove your hypothesis.

Saw this one on Facebook. Not sure it is correct, but if so it really is sad.
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/145000-149999/147314/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1045398.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/145000-149999/147314/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1045398.jpg', '/') + 1) . '


I saw that on facebook too, but I dont think its true. We have more firearm murders in Canada than 52 (unfortunately).

ETA: Most recent stats I could find were 2005, when Canada had 222 firearm related homicices, an increase of 49 from the year before, and that firearms were used in 6 of every 10 homicides. That year, the homicide rate for Canada was 2.04 per 100,000, while in the USA it was 5.63.
Source

Message edited by author 2012-12-16 08:50:22.
12/16/2012 09:50:41 AM · #225
Originally posted by VitaminB:

I saw that on facebook too, but I dont think its true. We have more firearm murders in Canada than 52 (unfortunately).

Stats like that are useless unless you compare on a per capita basis. The larger the population, the more I would suspect a particular crime takes place.

edit - People use absolute numbers for shock value, but they're meaningless for comparison purposes.

Message edited by author 2012-12-16 09:51:24.
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