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08/30/2004 08:38:11 AM · #1
The complaint thread about the results......
I am at a complete loss to explain how second placed shot ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/99252.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/99252.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' is 34 places higher than this......' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/99244.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/99244.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

someone else want to explain it to me? It's not composition, it's not content, it's not that it's black and white... lighting perhaps, or the fact that it's duotone, and the only other thing could be the grain....

Now, I don't complain, ordinarily, and you can't change the results, but I don't get it..... I know this sounds petulant, but I'm done.

Thanks to all but one of those who have commented on this shot.
08/30/2004 08:45:18 AM · #2
I think it's probably to do with image clarity, which is usually one of the most important things on DPC. Heida's photo is sharper in focus, and smoother, whereas yours is probably a bit on the soft side for a lot of voters, and a bit (in my opinion, too much so) grainy. I prefer yours in terms of composition witin the frame and background, but its just the not-so-squeaky clean look which let it down I think.
08/30/2004 08:46:12 AM · #3
I feel between the two, the lighting is the biggest change. It's subtle, very subtle, but makes a big difference. The possition of the women is better in the first as well.

The point spread is so close that it only takes small changes to make a difference.
08/30/2004 08:49:07 AM · #4
Yep, everything konador said. Grain is a big factor in this shot but I think the main reason is that Heida did the second place and she always get a ribbon.
08/30/2004 09:00:08 AM · #5
I'm sorry, but I think it's just a matter of taste. For me the grain and background brought it down, and maybe more contrast with soft focus and a little bit better crop would make it better. Your photo isn't bad imo.
For Heida's photo, her use of lights, background and burn/dodge technic made her photo as good as it is and it deserved the a ribbon imho.

I think it's often that we really can't understand why our photos aren't doing better, and then it's good to have the comments, but there are less comments from the low voters than the people that really like the photos. In the same challenge my photo ended 43th, I can't understand why, but I think I know why, people wanted to see private parts and more flesh, but the details didn't ask for that, it's just a matter of the way of thinking for people and the meaning of "nude" in people minds. I understand that for some people it's just a matter of taste. I think my photo would have done better in a 'silhouettes' challenge :-).

If someone reads this who rated it below average (168 people rated it 1-5), it would be nice of you to tell me why, and also what you think of it just as a single photo without a theme. I'm always learning like most of us and I highly appreciate every constructive comment. -•clic

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/99407.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/99407.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Message edited by author 2004-08-30 09:01:54.
08/30/2004 09:08:58 AM · #6
Amason: I gave it a 5, which is the highest mark I ever give for a photo that (in my opinion) doesn't fit the theme of the challenge. How do I know the person is nude? They could be wearing clothes for all I know. It just didnt fit my perception of the nude challenge.

In a free study challenge I probably would have given it 8. I like the colouring and the sky and the pose, but it think it goes too dark too quick at the bottom. I would have preferred to see a more gradual fade to black so that more of the hill/mountain could be visible.
08/30/2004 09:09:13 AM · #7
I think the composition does matter. also the grain, and the light. I voted on the one standing up, 1 higher than the one lying down for that those reasons.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/98348.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/98348.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
08/30/2004 09:09:35 AM · #8
Well, both shots are great. I actually voted yours a 9 and Heida's a 6. I don't mind grain and I guess I'm not a good enough photographer to have picked up on some of the technical things mentioned below.

I liked yours better mostly because of the mood that was captured, especially in the faces - Heidi's model is looking "over there somewhere", but your model, while also looking off camera, seems to me to be in much more of a reflective frame of mind. The rest of the photo complemented that and on the whole I found it more effective. (I'm not trying to dis Heida or anything - congrats on the ribbon!)
08/30/2004 09:12:12 AM · #9
I find both images great and I can´t say that one is better than other.

I asume that you´ve intentionally made the image grainy and for me it gives a good effect which fits the duetone and the subject very well. I´ve not read the comments on your image but I could belive that many have voted it down for it´s grain. That´s just the way it is on this site.
08/30/2004 09:14:00 AM · #10
IMO it is the eyes. I looked at Heidas image and the eyes stuck out. They are clear and sharp, which gives the image a bit of a WOW effect!
08/30/2004 09:14:28 AM · #11
Yeah there was the grain, not really the background so much for me but loosing the elbow. But the big difference for me was the eyes!

The eye's with the light capturing her hair really caught my attention on Heida's photo.

Bob

EDIT: Ya beat me with the eyes! lol

Message edited by author 2004-08-30 09:15:18.
08/30/2004 09:15:37 AM · #12
I am not one of those who hate grain, quite the oposite I sometimes create it when I think it would look good but I don't have it in the photo's but your grain seems a bit too much even to me. And thinking there are alot of real grain haters on this site, people who are probably ready to score low shots with less grain than yours, well this might be an answer to your question. Good pic otherways.
08/30/2004 09:17:59 AM · #13
Well, I guess I'm partly responsible for the difference. I voted 8 for the first and 6 for the second. As for why, I do think there's a big difference in the lighting and the composition. The first uses the shadows to much better effect then the more directly lit second image. Additionally I think the grain didn't suite the image in the second, by adding grain you are going against the soft smooth feel which the subject really deserves.

Of course these are only my own preferences, others might have a very different feeling on the subject.
08/30/2004 09:21:33 AM · #14
I was curious about this too. I believe it is because a large segment of the DPC population thinks Grain=Bad. Your and Heida's pic got about the same number of 5-6-7 votes (215 to 240) but she got tons more 8-9-10 votes (52 to 148). Give this group two "artistically equivalent" images and we'll always vote the grainy one down, just because.

For the record, I gave both images a 9 and I even had a criticism for Heida's while I gushed about yours!

-J
08/30/2004 09:28:00 AM · #15
Originally posted by Konador:

Amason: I gave it a 5, which is the highest mark I ever give for a photo that (in my opinion) doesn't fit the theme of the challenge. How do I know the person is nude? They could be wearing clothes for all I know. It just didnt fit my perception of the nude challenge.

In a free study challenge I probably would have given it 8. I like the colouring and the sky and the pose, but it think it goes too dark too quick at the bottom. I would have preferred to see a more gradual fade to black so that more of the hill/mountain could be visible.


Thanks Konador, I appreciate your honest oppinion.
I think it's just a matter of the meaning of "nude" in people's minds. The model was butt naked, and imho if the viewer can't see any evidence of clothes, it shouldn't be doubted. The details of the challenge didn't say the photos had to show private parts or flesh that is usually hidden, even the banana-apple photo fits the challenge imo. The meaning of my photo was that the man was asking the big question, "what is the meaning of life", standing there on the peak reaching to the almighty with his question, wanting to know "what is the naked truth?" as the answer to his question. Anyway, I guess I was way off thinking that people would get it over all, but to let it fit the challenge the easier way, the model was butt-naked, and there's no evidence of clothes. I think that most people didn't question that, otherwise my photo wouldn't be above middle. I guess people don't want to think a lot when voting, I can understand that and will try to think inside the box in future challenges... :-) hahaha
08/30/2004 09:29:58 AM · #16
Originally posted by Toddh:

someone else want to explain it to me? It's not composition, it's not content, it's not that it's black and white... lighting perhaps, or the fact that it's duotone, and the only other thing could be the grain....

I don't understand why you are saying that the difference is not caused by these these factors. I think it IS the composition, it IS the light, it IS the grain and therefore it is a totally different image, which got a 5 from me, while the ribbon image got a 7 from me. The main thing in common is the subject, but still a very different image.
08/30/2004 01:14:19 PM · #17
I appreciate the feedback, I rarely submit anymore for majority of the reasons I read below. I had forgotten how homogenised images need to be to do well on this site. I am not saying that the images that win aren't good, majority of them are exceptionally good, and dpc does represent the greater masses. There is nothing wrong with Heida's image, I singled it out only because it was pregnant woman, it is a solid image.

That my image finished where it did is a farce, and I realize that's where the masses placed it, it reenforces the reasons I don't submit here very often any longer.

There is a million things I could add here that will make me sound like a big fat whiner, so I won't bother.

Message edited by author 2004-08-30 13:15:45.
08/30/2004 01:19:56 PM · #18
I would agree that the lighting is much better in the first photo and personally I prefer the pose in the first photo as well. For my likings, the film grain was overdone in the second photo.
08/30/2004 01:23:41 PM · #19
Originally posted by Toddh:

That my image finished where it did is a farce, and I realize that's where the masses placed it, it reenforces the reasons I don't submit here very often any longer.


Them's some pretty sour grapes. But on the other hand, had you not submitted, my craptacular image:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/99087.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/99087.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
would have come in 79th!

Message edited by author 2004-08-30 13:26:53.
08/30/2004 01:25:05 PM · #20
Originally posted by Toddh:

I appreciate the feedback, I rarely submit anymore for majority of the reasons I read below. I had forgotten how homogenised images need to be to do well on this site. ...That my image finished where it did is a farce, and I realize that's where the masses placed it, it reenforces the reasons I don't submit here very often any longer.


You sound like crabappl3- a few weeks before he jumped back in with a blue ribbon and personal best. I hope you do the same.
08/30/2004 01:28:39 PM · #21
Originally posted by joebok:

Originally posted by Toddh:

That my image finished where it did is a farce, and I realize that's where the masses placed it, it reenforces the reasons I don't submit here very often any longer.


Them's some pretty sour grapes.


Yep, they are very, very sour grapes..... I don't mind admitting it.... about as not happy as you could get with that result.....

oh and with Nazgul's comment for those who care to read it.
08/30/2004 01:32:54 PM · #22
Originally posted by Toddh:

Originally posted by joebok:

Originally posted by Toddh:

That my image finished where it did is a farce, and I realize that's where the masses placed it, it reenforces the reasons I don't submit here very often any longer.


Them's some pretty sour grapes.


Yep, they are very, very sour grapes..... I don't mind admitting it.... about as not happy as you could get with that result.....

oh and with Nazgul's comment for those who care to read it.


I also saw Dr. Jones' comment - I haven't been around DPC as much as you, but I know which one I'd treat with a grain of salt!
08/30/2004 01:42:54 PM · #23
Toddh, with your terrific "Freestyler" you nailed the criteria for most DPC voters...it is one of my personal favorites.

I believe "grain" did you in on your fine nude shot.

As for comments you would have to search far and wide to find a more tastless picture than one nazgul ported not long ago so you can happily ignore his comment about taste.
08/30/2004 01:48:36 PM · #24
Originally posted by Toddh:

The complaint thread about the results......
I am at a complete loss to explain how second placed shot ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/99252.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/99252.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' is 34 places higher than this......' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/99244.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/248/thumb/99244.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

someone else want to explain it to me? It's not composition, it's not content, it's not that it's black and white... lighting perhaps, or the fact that it's duotone, and the only other thing could be the grain....

Now, I don't complain, ordinarily, and you can't change the results, but I don't get it..... I know this sounds petulant, but I'm done.

Thanks to all but one of those who have commented on this shot.


IMO both photographs a good. I have to say I like the first better than the second. My opinion is at best an amateurs opinion so take it for what is worth. I think the lighting made a difference as well as the soft vs. grain. The models are with child and most people think of the "mothers glow" when they see a woman with child. Maybe that was taken in consideration when voting. The soft effect in picture one portrays that "mothers glow", at least to me. Not saying picture two is bad, I think it is a good shot and deserved a good average but IMO it didn't inspire me as much as picture one. NOTE: I did not vote in this challenge. I just wanted to make a comment on your topic and I hope it helps.
BTW: Let the models know they both were great and lovely.

08/30/2004 01:58:42 PM · #25
I think grain did it for many - and the blonde hair. I believe a lot of people like the neat image look and think grain is a bad technique :D

I liked them both I must add, but for completely different reasons.

Heida's was neat and tidy, more like a nice final piece of work that had been thought out and well finished off. A little too artificially soft for my tastes which i commented on.

Yours I felt had the natural quality and somehow captured more 'personality' than Heida's.

Both stern efforts.

More interesting I found was Nazgul's comment on Heida's being "Congrada on your 10th and definitely not your last Ribbon."

And on yours being "tasteless"

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