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07/12/2013 06:32:11 PM · #76
Originally posted by mitalapo:

Originally posted by Cory:

... but let me ask you this: If a client asked you to create an image for him, and the assignment was described as the challenge was, would the client be pleased with the result?

let me ask back then: If you were at the museum, where the walls are covered with obvious, trivially deciphered images you breeze through in 10 minutes, would you be happy knowing you just payed $15 for the ticket?


No, I would not.

Then again, I'd be even less pleased if I went to Madam Tussaud's and found nothing but paintings of wax sculptures.

Really though, did you just imply that everything which is directly related to the topic is, by definition, obvious and trivially deciphered?

I think I might find that mildly offensive, and most certainly think that it's a non-productive attitude that the only good photos are the ones that aren't directly related to the topic at hand.

I really do appreciate the contraian nature, it's something I myself have a rather strong affinity for in fact. The problem is that we also must recognize when we are indeed running against the current, and attempt to recognize the value of the conformist, for without conformity, there isn't even the ability for you to be contrarian. Additionally, it's really important that most of the images continue to be directly on-topic, otherwise there's no point in running anything that's not a freestudy.

ETA: I'd also like to add that I think it's good we're discussing it, and I do appreciate you bringing the subject up. I think DPC would lose something very important if our wonderful group of Consistent Contrarians were lost.

>...>...> I think I'm going to keep using the term Consistent Contrarians, it's a really good description for the brave few who consistently enter the most creatively imaginative images.

Message edited by author 2013-07-12 18:48:37.
07/12/2013 06:37:58 PM · #77
Originally posted by Cory:

No, I would not.
Then again, I'd be even less pleased if I went to Madam Tussaud's and found nothing but paintings of wax sculptures.


+1
07/12/2013 06:51:28 PM · #78
Originally posted by Cory:

No, I would not.
Then again, I'd be even less pleased if I went to Madam Tussaud's and found nothing but paintings of wax sculptures.

and what if it were full of straw men
07/12/2013 07:04:21 PM · #79
Originally posted by Cory:

Really though, did you just imply that everything which is directly related to the topic is, by definition, obvious and trivially deciphered?

I think I might find that mildly offensive, and most certainly think that it's a non-productive attitude that the only good photos are the ones that aren't directly related to the topic at hand.

It was just a counterexample which, by nature, tend to be extreme and argumentative. It meant to say that challenging the viewers can make them an active part of the artistic process, and therefore is valuable (is there art without viewers?). Challenging viewers can take many forms. Having them contemplate about the relation to the topic is just one such form.
07/12/2013 07:08:40 PM · #80
Originally posted by mitalapo:

Originally posted by Cory:

Really though, did you just imply that everything which is directly related to the topic is, by definition, obvious and trivially deciphered?

I think I might find that mildly offensive, and most certainly think that it's a non-productive attitude that the only good photos are the ones that aren't directly related to the topic at hand.

It was just a counterexample which, by nature, tend to be extreme and argumentative. It meant to say that challenging the viewers can make them an active part of the artistic process, and therefore is valuable (is there art without viewers?). Challenging viewers can take many forms. Having them contemplate about the relation to the topic is just one such form.
If you give an example of two utility workers at a manhole not being related to a "two monks at the well" challenge, then yes, you are looking for images which are obvious and trivially deciphered.
07/12/2013 07:09:26 PM · #81
Originally posted by skewsme:

Originally posted by Cory:

No, I would not.
Then again, I'd be even less pleased if I went to Madam Tussaud's and found nothing but paintings of wax sculptures.

and what if it were full of straw men


Which is to say that you think I'm trying to somehow attack a position that he's not holding? I thought my analogy was pretty darn good, and I certainly do think I've understood his position fairly well - heck, I'm not even saying that I wouldn't like to see a couple of paintings at Madam Tussaud's, I'm just saying that when the advertisement says Wax Sculpture Museum, I expect more than just paintings of Wax Sculptures.

Do you honestly take umbrage with my position on this?
07/12/2013 07:10:18 PM · #82
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by mitalapo:

Originally posted by Cory:

Really though, did you just imply that everything which is directly related to the topic is, by definition, obvious and trivially deciphered?

I think I might find that mildly offensive, and most certainly think that it's a non-productive attitude that the only good photos are the ones that aren't directly related to the topic at hand.

It was just a counterexample which, by nature, tend to be extreme and argumentative. It meant to say that challenging the viewers can make them an active part of the artistic process, and therefore is valuable (is there art without viewers?). Challenging viewers can take many forms. Having them contemplate about the relation to the topic is just one such form.
If you give an example of two utility workers at a manhole not being related to a "two monks at the well" challenge, then yes, you are looking for images which are obvious and trivially deciphered.


It was a Monastery challenge Don, does that change your position on this at all?

Message edited by author 2013-07-12 19:10:32.
07/12/2013 07:17:53 PM · #83
Originally posted by mitalapo:

Originally posted by Cory:

Really though, did you just imply that everything which is directly related to the topic is, by definition, obvious and trivially deciphered?

I think I might find that mildly offensive, and most certainly think that it's a non-productive attitude that the only good photos are the ones that aren't directly related to the topic at hand.

It was just a counterexample which, by nature, tend to be extreme and argumentative. It meant to say that challenging the viewers can make them an active part of the artistic process, and therefore is valuable (is there art without viewers?). Challenging viewers can take many forms. Having them contemplate about the relation to the topic is just one such form.


In theory, we're in perfect agreement, there is value in that.

However, we're not talking about the ideal situation, we're talking about DPC photography challenges, and DPC voters - if you consider the time it would take for the average voter to go through a challenge if they had to contemplate each image for 10 minutes, it becomes obvious why deeper meaning is an overly ambitious goal here. You can't reasonably expect the voter to spend that kind of time with each image - it's just not possible.

Surely you understand all of that though, and are simply advocating that people do look for the deeper meaning in photos that are seemingly unrelated to the topic. Which I do think is a wonderful thing, and once in a while the connection is so strong, despite being subtle, that I can't help but award top points. Mostly though, I find that the target is missed.

07/12/2013 07:28:09 PM · #84
Originally posted by Cory:

... Mostly though, I find that the target is missed.

In similar situations I tend to think that maybe I am the one who missed it.
07/12/2013 07:53:23 PM · #85
Originally posted by mitalapo:

Originally posted by Cory:

... Mostly though, I find that the target is missed.

In similar situations I tend to think that maybe I am the one who missed it.


I suppose that doesn't surprise me.

Of course, even if I see the connection, I may not rate it 'strong' enough to warrant a good score.

Then again, if the connection is there, and it's a great image, I'd find it pretty hard to rate it anything but highly - still, I would probably reward a very-on-topic image that I enjoyed equally with at least 1 or 2 more points.
07/12/2013 07:54:24 PM · #86
Back on topic, I'm just thrilled with my score.

Wondering if this is gonna be one of those challenges that has a group of 7+ scores that don't even ribbon.

Votes: 26
Views: 73
Avg Vote: 6.5769
Comments: 4

Message edited by author 2013-07-12 19:54:35.
07/12/2013 08:01:07 PM · #87
You currently have me beat by a few tenths, Cory. Even with your beaming comment :)
07/12/2013 11:32:45 PM · #88
Votes: 31
Views: 76
Avg Vote: 6.0000
Comments: 6

All nice comments :-)

And just a note on the above conversctions: regardless of challenge topic women and cats always get my highest votes! If in the given monastery challenge I see a nude photo is a 10 from me ;-) if the cat is black and naughty there's another 10

Message edited by author 2013-07-12 23:34:28.
07/13/2013 12:23:06 AM · #89
Originally posted by CBalck:

Originally posted by cutout:

let me give you a sample
CHALLENGE monastery
i enter a pic with 2 monks drawing water from a well
in a forest no monastery in sight

you will give me a low score
if you would have gone a bit deeper than you would
have realized there is a monastery there
because where do you think those 2 monks come from?
so there is an invisible presence here what you have to grasp


In your example the connection seems clear to me, but there are images of animals and fields in the New Happiness challenge that do not appear to connect in any way to the MacDonald images.


Old MacDonald had a farm.....
07/13/2013 12:24:26 AM · #90
Originally posted by daisydavid:

. . .
Old MacDonald had a farm.....


LOLLOL
07/13/2013 02:07:06 AM · #91
Thanks for the engaging and entertaining discussion. Some very interesting points were brought up. I loved the dog theory (MacDonald's dog barking at the colors) and the monk vs man hole analysis. If nothing else I got a good laugh tonight following this thread!

07/13/2013 02:12:07 AM · #92
Originally posted by giantmike:

You currently have me beat by a few tenths, Cory. Even with your beaming comment :)


And vote I'm sure. If I give a beaming comment, that's almost always accompanied with a nice high vote
07/13/2013 02:24:21 AM · #93
Votes: 28
Views: 86
Avg Vote: 3.4286
Comments: 4

Could still could be on for the brown. No beaming comments for me-mostly DNMC, apart from Cory's who noticed a vague geometric connection at least. One comment did suggest my title was actually really depressing so that cheered me up.
07/13/2013 03:20:37 AM · #94
Originally posted by rooum:

Votes: 28
Views: 86
Avg Vote: 3.4286
Comments: 4

Could still could be on for the brown. No beaming comments for me-mostly DNMC, apart from Cory's who noticed a vague geometric connection at least. One comment did suggest my title was actually really depressing so that cheered me up.


Oh, that is some very sweet irony. Love it!

07/13/2013 03:27:02 AM · #95
Originally posted by rooum:

Votes: 28
Views: 86
Avg Vote: 3.4286
Comments: 4

Could still could be on for the brown. No beaming comments for me-mostly DNMC, apart from Cory's who noticed a vague geometric connection at least. One comment did suggest my title was actually really depressing so that cheered me up.


I'll meet on on the last page come rollover.

Votes: 29
Views: 79
Avg Vote: 3.8621
Comments: 5
07/13/2013 10:13:31 AM · #96
I am so surprised with the low votes, I thought overall most did pretty well.

I have to agree with ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' rooum though when he said he went through Angus's portfolio and found most of his work boring, it's kind of true, and at first when Cory suggested the challenge, I thought it would be fun, I was attracted to the bright colours, but his work is not all that inspiring to tell the truth nor is it in anyway technical!

Mine is at 5.74, about where I thought it was worth to tell the truth, I even put in my notes 'pretty boring actually'.

A baghead comment really liked it though.
07/13/2013 10:49:36 AM · #97
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by mitalapo:

Originally posted by Cory:

Really though, did you just imply that everything which is directly related to the topic is, by definition, obvious and trivially deciphered?

I think I might find that mildly offensive, and most certainly think that it's a non-productive attitude that the only good photos are the ones that aren't directly related to the topic at hand.

It was just a counterexample which, by nature, tend to be extreme and argumentative. It meant to say that challenging the viewers can make them an active part of the artistic process, and therefore is valuable (is there art without viewers?). Challenging viewers can take many forms. Having them contemplate about the relation to the topic is just one such form.
If you give an example of two utility workers at a manhole not being related to a "two monks at the well" challenge, then yes, you are looking for images which are obvious and trivially deciphered.


It was a Monastery challenge Don, does that change your position on this at all?


oh I see, so the utility workers are made of straw. yes, we should burn them.
07/13/2013 11:02:38 AM · #98
Did not know the outtake rule. Sorry.

Message edited by author 2013-07-14 23:07:28.
07/13/2013 12:58:43 PM · #99
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by mitalapo:

Originally posted by Cory:

Really though, did you just imply that everything which is directly related to the topic is, by definition, obvious and trivially deciphered?

I think I might find that mildly offensive, and most certainly think that it's a non-productive attitude that the only good photos are the ones that aren't directly related to the topic at hand.

It was just a counterexample which, by nature, tend to be extreme and argumentative. It meant to say that challenging the viewers can make them an active part of the artistic process, and therefore is valuable (is there art without viewers?). Challenging viewers can take many forms. Having them contemplate about the relation to the topic is just one such form.
If you give an example of two utility workers at a manhole not being related to a "two monks at the well" challenge, then yes, you are looking for images which are obvious and trivially deciphered.


It was a Monastery challenge Don, does that change your position on this at all?


oh I see, so the utility workers are made of straw. yes, we should burn them.


The sweet part about this is just how ironic it is.

I wonder if you realize that you were the only one who actually tried a strawman argument there, when you misrepresented the challenge as a "two monks at the well" challenge.
07/13/2013 01:08:19 PM · #100
Originally posted by Neat:

I am so surprised with the low votes, I thought overall most did pretty well.

I have to agree with ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' rooum though when he said he went through Angus's portfolio and found most of his work boring, it's kind of true, and at first when Cory suggested the challenge, I thought it would be fun, I was attracted to the bright colours, but his work is not all that inspiring to tell the truth nor is it in anyway technical!

Mine is at 5.74, about where I thought it was worth to tell the truth, I even put in my notes 'pretty boring actually'.

A baghead comment really liked it though.
\

You think so?

I've gotta admit that I'm pretty surprised with you two - given that his work, for me, is actually quite emotive, and has that deeper meaning that so many of us try to achieve.

New Happiness wasn't about bright colors and Mondrianesque straight line geometry - that's just what it can be broken down into. New Happiness was, if I have understood correctly, an examination of one of the more visual ways that even those who don't have much are still able to make their world a happy and beautiful place, instead of simply allowing it to be depressingly drab and dull. It's a statement on the human condition, and to me it seems almost like advice - "Rise above your conditions, go, live, be happy, and brighten your own world up with color and joyfulness".

If there's not something worthy of my admiration and respect in that, then I don't know if I've ever seen anything worthy of such.
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