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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> The police are still out of control in the USA
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08/14/2014 11:56:33 AM · #1
It really does seem to be coming to a bit of a head doesn't it?

Now we're seeing them trample the media as well...

This one's a mess, three days of unrest now? I hope they stay angry for a lot longer.
08/14/2014 12:04:02 PM · #2
Originally posted by Cory:

It really does seem to be coming to a bit of a head doesn't it?

Now we're seeing them trample the media as well...

This one's a mess, three days of unrest now? I hope they stay angry for a lot longer.


NOT ME... when we consider that people have resorted to looting and opening fire on police officers, this a a no-win situation for all.

De-escalation should be at the forefront, coupled with an in-depth investigation into exactly what transpired, the taking of corrective measure and the application of criminal charges if warranted.

Just my thoughts,

Ray
08/14/2014 12:23:38 PM · #3
Cory, have you ever considered looking for, and bringing our attention to, "good cop" stories? I mean, crap happens, sure it does, but you can't tar ALL of a country's law enforcement personnel with the same broad brush...

ETA: it's the TITLE of the thread that prompted this. I agree, what's going on in Ferguson is grotesque.

Message edited by author 2014-08-14 14:30:19.
08/14/2014 12:27:28 PM · #4
There are good cops out there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKr5evJTZuY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58TTZBYYeoQ

They don't all shoot the kids in the street.
08/14/2014 01:15:00 PM · #5
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Cory, have you ever considered looking for, and bringing our attention to, "good cop" stories? I mean, crap happens, sure it does, but you can't tar ALL of a countries law enforcement personnel with the same broad brush...


right, there are 300 million individuls in this country, we can't expect all of the to behave properly.

I have this dialog with my mom all the time, she cant believe i let my daughter ride her bike around the neighborhood, shes convinced the world is full of child molester and creeps. My response is no, they were there when i was little too, just as many, you just didn't know or hear about them as much.

You never hear about the good stuff and good people in this world because its doesn't create page clicks and generate publicity for advertising...

08/14/2014 01:31:13 PM · #6
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Cory, have you ever considered looking for, and bringing our attention to, "good cop" stories? I mean, crap happens, sure it does, but you can't tar ALL of a countries law enforcement personnel with the same broad brush...


I hardly think that is the point.
08/14/2014 01:37:01 PM · #7
love him or hate him, Rand Paul nails it:

//time.com/3111474/rand-paul-ferguson-police/

08/14/2014 01:51:04 PM · #8
Oakland Can't Punish Bad Cops

Originally posted by Linked Article:

An arbitrator's surprising ruling last week ordering the city to rehire a disgraced officer was, in fact, no surprise at all.

By Robert Gammon @ eastbayexpress.com

It seemed like a slam-dunk case. Oakland police brass decided to fire Officer Robert Roche for lobbing a tear gas grenade at a group of people who were trying to rescue Iraq War veteran Scott Olsen after he had been shot in the head by another Oakland cop during an Occupy protest on October 25, 2011. Roche's actions were captured on video (as first reported by the Express). They were abhorrent and his termination was completely justified.
08/14/2014 01:52:13 PM · #9
fine words butter no parsnips

rand paul gymnastics

08/14/2014 02:00:55 PM · #10
Is there any more idiotic way to express outrage at an officer who may have resorted to deadly force because he assumed the worst of a black teenager than for people to resort to violence because they assume the worst of police?
08/14/2014 02:02:25 PM · #11
Originally posted by tnun:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Cory, have you ever considered looking for, and bringing our attention to, "good cop" stories? I mean, crap happens, sure it does, but you can't tar ALL of a countries law enforcement personnel with the same broad brush...


I hardly think that is the point.


Fine, I will grant you that...but would you agree that the following quote from ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Cory also should not be the focal point of this discussion: "I hope they stay angry for a lot longer"

If you don't believe that what our friend ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/user_id/30861.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/user_id/30861.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Bear_Music has advanced is the "Point", perhaps you could enlighten us was to what exactly is the point.

Just curious,

Ray
08/14/2014 02:03:14 PM · #12
Originally posted by tnun:

fine words butter no parsnips

rand paul gymnastics


For some reason that link does not work for me. Do you have some other similar bit of information that I could latch onto.

Ray
08/14/2014 02:07:43 PM · #13
Originally posted by scalvert:

Is there any more idiotic way to express outrage at an officer who may have resorted to deadly force because he assumed the worst of a black teenager than for people to resort to violence because they assume the worst of police?


No.
08/14/2014 02:23:13 PM · #14
Okay here is a good cop story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKulNQ0LhYI
08/14/2014 02:25:57 PM · #15
This policeman stopped a woman for running a stop sign... she was choking to death.

Policeman saves Choking woman
08/14/2014 02:26:56 PM · #16
Originally posted by scalvert:

Is there any more idiotic way to express outrage at an officer who may have resorted to deadly force because he assumed the worst of a black teenager than for people to resort to violence because they assume the worst of police?

Not really ...
In The Heat Of The Summer (1966)

Words and Music by Phil Ochs

In the heat of the summer
When the pavements were burning
The soul of a city was ravaged in the night
After the city's sun was sinking

Now no one knows how it started
Why the windows were shattered
But deep in the dark someone set the spark
And then it no longer mattered

Down the street they were rumblin'
All the tempers were ragin'
Oh where, oh where are the white silver tongues
Who forgot to listen to the warnings

On and on came the angry
No longer following reason
And all the stores were the targets now
Where just the other day they were buying

Drunk with the mem'ry of the ghetto
Drunk with the lure of the looting
And the mem'ry of the uniforms shoving with their sticks
Asking "are you looking for trouble?"

"No, no, no," moaned the mayor
"That's not the way of the order
"Oh stay in your homes, please leave us alone
"We'll be glad to talk in the morning"

For shame, for shame wrote the papers
Why the hurry to your hunger
Now the rubble is resting on your broken streets
Oh see what your rage has unraveled

Barricades sadly were risin'
Bricks were heavily flyin'
And the loudspeaker drowned like a whispering sound
When compared to the angered emotions

And when the fury was over
And the shame was replacing the anger
So wrong, so wrong, but we've been down too long
And we had to make somebody listen
In the heat of the summer
08/14/2014 02:45:53 PM · #17
I think the point is that there is a problem. the Rand Paul link was to a Forbes article about Rand Paul contradicting himself on the Drone issue. the original Rand Paul reference is full of pretty fine words until he starts to blame federal government spending for militarizing the police forces.

I personally think the police are victims in a sense, and no, I don't agree that staying angry will help anyone. What I disagree with is the attempt to downplay the grievousness of the situation, by talking about good cops which many of us can do with honesty. However, many of us don't live where Cory's examples take place.
08/14/2014 03:07:25 PM · #18
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by tnun:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Cory, have you ever considered looking for, and bringing our attention to, "good cop" stories? I mean, crap happens, sure it does, but you can't tar ALL of a countries law enforcement personnel with the same broad brush...


I hardly think that is the point.


Fine, I will grant you that...but would you agree that the following quote from ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Cory also should not be the focal point of this discussion: "I hope they stay angry for a lot longer"

If you don't believe that what our friend ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/user_id/30861.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/user_id/30861.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Bear_Music has advanced is the "Point", perhaps you could enlighten us was to what exactly is the point.

Just curious,

Ray


The point is simple, we have a serious problem, and this is another good example of it, where even the ostensibly "good" cops are closing ranks to protect the murderer in blue.

As for their tactics, I don't necessarily like their methods, but I damned sure like their results (so far), anything, and I do mean ANYTHING that spurs a national conversation around this is a good thing. With that being said, I really do hope they stay angry, I hope they don't become mollified quickly, we need to hear about this for a good long while, and I'd like to see the responsibility roll back up the chain of command.

Finally, I do recognize that I could point out when police aren't doing bad things - but there'd be no point in that, I'm trying to bring this up so we can discuss something that needs discussing. Much like the police won't pull you over for going the speed limit, I see no point in calling them out for not doing anything bad.

Message edited by author 2014-08-14 15:11:10.
08/14/2014 03:47:10 PM · #19
Originally posted by Cory:

The point is simple, we have a serious problem... I don't necessarily like their methods, but I damned sure like their results (so far), anything, and I do mean ANYTHING that spurs a national conversation around this is a good thing.

If the death of one or even a dozen people due to excessive police force is indicative of a serious problem that calls for a national conversation, then why aren't the deaths of 10,000+ people every year due to gun violence an equally compelling reason to discuss and address that topic? Maybe the solution is more police...
08/14/2014 03:55:09 PM · #20
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Cory:

The point is simple, we have a serious problem... I don't necessarily like their methods, but I damned sure like their results (so far), anything, and I do mean ANYTHING that spurs a national conversation around this is a good thing.

If the death of one or even a dozen people due to excessive police force is indicative of a serious problem that calls for a national conversation, then why aren't the deaths of 10,000+ people every year due to gun violence an equally compelling reason to discuss and address that topic? Maybe the solution is more police...


Because, guns don't kill people, people kill people, and the police are people. Discussing the tool used to kill is essentially worthless.

Aside from that, the bigger point here is that, in fact, most of the bad things the police do are much less serious, and much more insidious. Without incidents like this one causing uproar, those smaller things don't get brought to light. I think that once the investigation commences we might be surprised at what a chain of failures it took for this to occur. I would not be surprised to learn that the officer may have a history of behavior that would indicate a potential for an incident like this. Furthermore, I wouldn't even be surprised if there is a history of his superiors covering up for him. It's a cultural problem, and I do not believe that it is exclusive to a few local police departments. I think there are some wonderful cops out there, but they really don't concern me, other than imagining how difficult it must be for them to have to protect those who they know are bad cops...

Message edited by author 2014-08-14 16:01:39.
08/14/2014 04:32:21 PM · #21
The problem is, I can't even IMAGINE an enforcement culture, be it police or military or judicial or whatever, that doesn't protect its own. I can't imagine a family that doesn't protect its own, for that matter.

I do believe that the police have been militarized to an extreme degree, and it troubles me greatly, but I don't particularly think the problem is exclusively or even primarily a "police problem". Our law enforcement culture reflects the dominant culture among leadership, basically, and THAT culture is a virulent brand of us-or-them paranoia.
08/14/2014 04:45:29 PM · #22
Among other things, the police (esp. in St. Louis as of late, but just one of many examples) have a lot to learn about managing public opinion. Just because a reporter sticks their mic in front of your face doesn't mean you have to make a statement.
Trying to tell people they're stupid and the police are being kind, gentle, and compassionate isn't going to play in Peoria - especially when the very folks who are suspect are the ones doing the reassuring.
Law and order require deference and respect to be effective, but those involved in law and order must behave in a way that deserves deference and respect. If all you have of a civilized society is law enforcement, you soon will not have a civilized society.

Message edited by author 2014-08-14 16:46:01.
08/14/2014 04:51:59 PM · #23
maybe the problem is that there is a rising lack of respect for a uniform and laws. :\

08/14/2014 04:52:03 PM · #24
I don't think anyone is saying it is an exclusively police problem. Yes, it is a trickle down effect of certain government leadership which INCITES or ENCOURAGES paranoia but which itself is essentially soulless and self seeking.

And I am not at all sure I agree with the analogy between family and enforcement culture. What do you do when your beloved child goes terribly wrong?
08/14/2014 04:53:25 PM · #25
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

The problem is, I can't even IMAGINE an enforcement culture, be it police or military or judicial or whatever, that doesn't protect its own. I can't imagine a family that doesn't protect its own, for that matter.

I do believe that the police have been militarized to an extreme degree, and it troubles me greatly, but I don't particularly think the problem is exclusively or even primarily a "police problem". Our law enforcement culture reflects the dominant culture among leadership, basically, and THAT culture is a virulent brand of us-or-them paranoia.


I can imagine it. They've sworn to uphold the law, and I expect no less. I may not like the laws, but I respect the cops that follow the laws, it's the ones (and they are legion) who think they are above the law, or somehow exempt while on duty, those are the ones who I have it out for.

In a new development, the governor has apparently announced that they highway patrol department will be taking over policing duty in that town. I don't know if they're much better, but in my experience state police have proven to be much more professional than the local departments, so I think this is probably a positive development.
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