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05/11/2015 09:14:50 PM · #126
Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by RayEthier:



There is no real tangible proof here and all we are witnessing is a "Rush to judgement".

Ray


What "rush" Ray? The game in question was some 5 months ago…


When one has no demonstrable proof and renders judgement on mere speculation based on probabilities, that in itself is a "Rush to judgement".

When we consider how many points the Patriots scored in the second half of that game with properly inflated balls, then their opposition should be thankful that the balls were under inflated in the first half.

I have no idea if an appeal process is available to the Patriots, but if it is I do hope that they avail themselves of that right.

Ray

05/11/2015 09:25:02 PM · #127
Ray, an investigation was conducted and the conclusion was that there is "demonstrable proof" that they cheated.

You may disagree with the degree and distribution of culpability, and method of punishment, but I don't think there should be much argument over the basic premise.

ETA: Civil cases are usually decided on the basis of a "preponderance of the evidence" and not "beyond a reasonable doubt" as is usually required in criminal proceedings. And since this is an internal matter within/among private contractually-related parties they can pretty much go by whatever rules they want.

Message edited by author 2015-05-11 21:57:57.
05/11/2015 10:43:08 PM · #128
Giants fan here.

he broke the rules so he had to be punished, but 4 games is harsh and this whole situation reeks of a sting operation, why not just privately tell all the clubs that ball inflation has been called into question and if any wrong doing was occurring to knock it off?

the NFL has become such a joke when it comes to handling off the field matters and as a result we get to watch the sport without its biggest star not to mention tarnishing the reputation of quite possibly the best quarterback to play the game.

i'm glad my team inst playing the the pats in week 5. bet the over and the patriot to cover. the AFC championship 45-7 beat down on the colts was just a warmup to whats going to happen to them in week 5.
05/11/2015 11:09:28 PM · #129
They didn't just break a tiny rule. Air pressure on its own is not a big deal. The problem is that they submitted game equipment for inspection and approval, got approval, and then altered the equipment before it was put in play. That's indefensible.

And the sting operation complaint is silly. No, I don't believe other teams smuggle balls into secret places and release air after they've been approve by refs. And you shouldn't have to remind a team to not cheat. If you get caught cheating there's one person to blame.

Edit: I still think the team should be penalized, not Brady. Vacate the playoff and super bowl victories.

Ray, professional sports are a business. An NBA owner was forced to sell his team because he was racist. A multi-billion-dollar exchange. If it's bad for the league, that's all that matters.

Message edited by author 2015-05-11 23:15:06.
05/12/2015 08:21:13 AM · #130
the team is being penalized. They are without their best player for 4 games.
05/12/2015 08:47:27 AM · #131
From Mike Florio's article: "...Got incriminating info on your phone? Refuse to provide it. Know things that would tend to point toward guilt? Refuse to talk, or at least refuse to answer certain questions.

Some fans think that’s OK, spouting off principles that apply only in the context of criminal prosecutions. But the right to remain silent, the presumption of innocence, the requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and all other Constitutional protections only matter when the outcome is prison or death.

For workplace investigations, the employer makes the rules. And when the employer expects cooperation, anything other than significant sanctions for failure to cooperate will invite others to refuse to cooperate…."
05/12/2015 09:01:11 AM · #132
It's a bit of a stretch to call the NFL Brady's "employer". That''s a little like, say, calling your condo association your employer, or something. The NFL is a "ruling body", and there's a little issue of consistency here. The Chargers were caught red-handed using doped-up towels to get stickum on their footballs during games in 2012, and the TEAM was fined $20,000... Think their quarterback wasn't aware of that stuff?

There's a witch-hunt quality to all this that is appalling. Situations like this are better handled with a "C'mon guys, knock it off!" communication, not a sting operation.
05/12/2015 09:01:19 AM · #133
Full Disclosure, Steelers fan. However, Brady owes everything he has to the NFL- he didn't need to show his phone, just admit he cheated. Millions and Millions per year negate his right to "phone cover up privacy." Don't kid yourself like all the facebook homer fans from CT to Maine- the evidence of it happening is clear- and it would make no logical sense if Brady was not involved. None.

IN the end does it matter? probably not- they did better with properly inflated balls- but that just shows Brady's arrogance- wanting the balls deflated for his reasons- for his stats, for his legacy- no matter what it does to the team- and then he throws the ball boys under the bus?

He may be a great player- but people like "bad winners" even less than sore losers. Now he's exposed for what he is, a cheater, always followed by an asterisk.
05/12/2015 09:02:24 AM · #134
Originally posted by Mike:

the team is being penalized. They are without their best player for 4 games.


The team lost 2 draft picks and was dealt a million dollar fine.
Brady was hit with a 4 game suspension, there will be an appeal by Brady and my gut feeling is it will get knocked down to 2 games.

05/12/2015 09:39:00 AM · #135
I understand that professional sports can be a satisfying distraction from the headlines of the day. And that it is easy to have an opinion on something so simple as modified football inflation. But honestly, it is sad that people obsess over sports - and particularly this one. The concussion / brain damage discussion is far more important than whether these balls were properly inflated.

The NFL is a business. They sell ads. If you don't watch, they go out of business. Unless, of course, your local governments subsidize their costs (which they do in many cases, including here in Cleveland, where people obsess over a legacy of loss).

I don't have a solid opinion on what the penalty should be in the case of the deflated balls; But I will never attend an NFL game nor will I encourage my kid to pursue the sport in any way.
05/12/2015 09:43:56 AM · #136
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

It's a bit of a stretch to call the NFL Brady's "employer". That''s a little like, say, calling your condo association your employer, or something. The NFL is a "ruling body", and there's a little issue of consistency here. The Chargers were caught red-handed using doped-up towels to get stickum on their footballs during games in 2012, and the TEAM was fined $20,000... Think their quarterback wasn't aware of that stuff?

There's a witch-hunt quality to all this that is appalling. Situations like this are better handled with a "C'mon guys, knock it off!" communication, not a sting operation.


Troy Vincent said that the NFL took in to consideration the fact that this is not the first time they have had to discipline the Patriots for cheating. They have priors. I wonder if the NFL has a "three strikes" rule.

//www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/NFL-invokes-Spygate-in-explanation-of-Patriots-punishment

Message edited by author 2015-05-12 09:45:11.
05/12/2015 09:50:02 AM · #137
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

It's a bit of a stretch to call the NFL Brady's "employer". That''s a little like, say, calling your condo association your employer, or something. The NFL is a "ruling body", and there's a little issue of consistency here. The Chargers were caught red-handed using doped-up towels to get stickum on their footballs during games in 2012, and the TEAM was fined $20,000... Think their quarterback wasn't aware of that stuff?

There's a witch-hunt quality to all this that is appalling. Situations like this are better handled with a "C'mon guys, knock it off!" communication, not a sting operation.


This isn't the Pats first time getting caught cheating, it's clear the "C'mon guys, knock it off!" approach and their previous penalties haven't resulted in a behavioral change.
05/12/2015 09:52:15 AM · #138
Originally posted by tate:

I understand that professional sports can be a satisfying distraction from the headlines of the day. And that it is easy to have an opinion on something so simple as modified football inflation. But honestly, it is sad that people obsess over sports - and particularly this one. The concussion / brain damage discussion is far more important than whether these balls were properly inflated.

The NFL is a business. They sell ads. If you don't watch, they go out of business. Unless, of course, your local governments subsidize their costs (which they do in many cases, including here in Cleveland, where people obsess over a legacy of loss).

I don't have a solid opinion on what the penalty should be in the case of the deflated balls; But I will never attend an NFL game nor will I encourage my kid to pursue the sport in any way.


Don't forget that until very recently, the NFL was also a tax exempt business, so they were subsidized by every US taxpayer...
05/12/2015 10:18:28 AM · #139
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

It's a bit of a stretch to call the NFL Brady's "employer". That''s a little like, say, calling your condo association your employer, or something. The NFL is a "ruling body", and there's a little issue of consistency here. The Chargers were caught red-handed using doped-up towels to get stickum on their footballs during games in 2012, and the TEAM was fined $20,000... Think their quarterback wasn't aware of that stuff?

There's a witch-hunt quality to all this that is appalling. Situations like this are better handled with a "C'mon guys, knock it off!" communication, not a sting operation.

Brady and the organization forfeited the "c'mon guys" option when they lied about it after being caught. He had the opportunity during his press conference to say, "I told them I like the balls to feel just like this, and I don't know what they do, but they make them feel how I like them." Slap on the wrist, story over. But he didn't take that route. He lied, and ultimately didn't cooperate with the investigation. Kraft as well, demanding an apology when it was all said and done, but then the organization didn't cooperate with the investigation. It's arrogant, defiant stuff.

If your cleats are a little too long and you get caught it's not a big deal; if you use stickum and get caught it's not a big deal; if you place your balls in front of a heater and get caught it's not a big deal; if you pipe in noise to make your stadium louder it's not a big deal -- but I think it is a very big deal to submit game equipment to the referees for inspection and approval, and then tamper with it afterward. That is blatant disrespect for the integrity of the game. And then when given the chance to explain it you lie and don't cooperate.

Here, if someone messes up with the submission date of their photo, or goes into the illegal zone with editing, etc., it's a DQ and we all move on. It happens. But if someone were to tamper with their exif data in an effort to willfully deceive the SC, it'd be a far more serious matter. That's how I see this.

Losing Brady for four games (I also believe it'll be reduced to two) doesn't mean a thing. The AFC East is horrible. Losing draft picks is also not a big deal. They've proven they can win with other people's scraps. Hell, their starting running back in the super bowl was kicked off another team mid-season for insubordination, and has been arrested this off-season for possession of marijuana. But hey, that keeps his salary down! That is the Belichick mentality, and it obviously works. $1m fine? Kraft wouldn't even notice if it were 10 times that. That's like a DPC membership to him.

The victories should be vacated.

Originally posted by Jay Mariotti, in an article, quotes from Wells report, first exchange in October::



McNally: "Tom sucks...im going make that next ball a [bleeping] balloon"

Jastremski: "Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done"

Jastremski: "I told him it was. He was right though"

Jastremski: "I checked some of the balls this morn... The refs [bleeped] us... a few of then were at almost 16 [psi]"

Jastremski: "They didnt recheck then after they put air in them"

McNally: "[Bleeping] tom ...16 is nothing... wait till next sunday"

Jastremski: "Omg! Spaz"

The following week, before a game against Chicago, there was another exchange.

Jastremski: "I have a big needle for u this week"

McNally: "Better be surrounded by cash and newkicks....or its a rugby sunday"

McNally: "[Bleep] tom"

Jastremski: "Maybe u will have some nice size 11s in ur locker"

McNally: "Tom must really be working your balls hard this week"

Then there was this exchange on Jan. 7, 11 days before the AFC title game.

McNally: "Remember to put a couple sweet pig skins ready for tom to sign"

Jastremski: "U got it kid...big autograph day for you"

McNally: "Nice throw some kicks in and make it real special"


A rather clear case of bribing the equipment dude with autographed merchandise. Had he just admitted it or lied a bit better, this never comes out. But he blew it, and now this super bowl and Brady himself will have a huge asterisk for anyone outside New England (where of course this is all just an insanely unfair witch hunt).
05/12/2015 11:07:41 AM · #140
IN the overall scheme of things, yeah, it's just a bump in the road. And yeah, if he did it, he should admit it. It's not like its uncommon for athletes (and teams) to look for an edge; the uncommon part is getting caught. That's just the way it is.

But I think you're reading me wrong on the "c'mon, guys" bit: I meant, the league should have taken care of this sub rosa, so to speak, and long ago, instead of organizing a sting operation and fomenting a witch hunt. It's not like the Patriots are the only team that does this stuff. Anyone who believes there's a single completely clean team playing in the NFL now, raise their hand. Anyone...? Right, I thought not...

But don't get me wrong; I'm OK with the punishment phase here. I just don't like the orchestrated, almost operatic way it all came down.
05/12/2015 11:09:57 AM · #141
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I just don't like the orchestrated, almost operatic way it all came down.


I do.

: - )
05/12/2015 11:20:56 AM · #142
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

IN the overall scheme of things, yeah, it's just a bump in the road. And yeah, if he did it, he should admit it. It's not like its uncommon for athletes (and teams) to look for an edge; the uncommon part is getting caught. That's just the way it is.

But I think you're reading me wrong on the "c'mon, guys" bit: I meant, the league should have taken care of this sub rosa, so to speak, and long ago, instead of organizing a sting operation and fomenting a witch hunt. It's not like the Patriots are the only team that does this stuff. Anyone who believes there's a single completely clean team playing in the NFL now, raise their hand. Anyone...? Right, I thought not...

But don't get me wrong; I'm OK with the punishment phase here. I just don't like the orchestrated, almost operatic way it all came down.


exactly.

I get the impression the NFL office loves it though, everyone is talking about the NFL in May while the playoffs for two other sports are going on. If you think for one second that dropping the colts on the schedule in weeks wasn't preplanned....

they are turning the sport into reality television.
05/12/2015 11:22:51 AM · #143
Originally posted by tate:

I understand that professional sports can be a satisfying distraction from the headlines of the day. And that it is easy to have an opinion on something so simple as modified football inflation. But honestly, it is sad that people obsess over sports - and particularly this one. The concussion / brain damage discussion is far more important than whether these balls were properly inflated.

The NFL is a business. They sell ads. If you don't watch, they go out of business. Unless, of course, your local governments subsidize their costs (which they do in many cases, including here in Cleveland, where people obsess over a legacy of loss).

I don't have a solid opinion on what the penalty should be in the case of the deflated balls; But I will never attend an NFL game nor will I encourage my kid to pursue the sport in any way.


I played organized tackle football for 14 seasons(pop warner, jr high, HS, and a semi pro adult league) and I definitely suffered some concussions. I also coach my 11 year olds youth team and have for the past 3 years and I can tell you that helmet technology, concussion understanding, and coaching techniques have advanced exponentially since I was a kid. I have absolutely no problem with my son playing all the way up to the HS level, but I will honestly tell you that I would be a nervous wreck watching him play anything beyond that. The NFL especially is played at such a break neck(no pun intended) speed and with such wreck less abandon that most fundamentals taught to youngsters about how to block and tackle get thrown out the window.

If my son is lucky and talented enough to enjoy a sports career that goes anywhere past HS please Lord let it be in baseball. And this is coming from a lifelong football fanatic.
05/12/2015 11:24:43 AM · #144
Originally posted by nygold:

Originally posted by Mike:

the team is being penalized. They are without their best player for 4 games.


The team lost 2 draft picks and was dealt a million dollar fine.
Brady was hit with a 4 game suspension, there will be an appeal by Brady and my gut feeling is it will get knocked down to 2 games.


huh, just read that, i thought it was just the brady suspension.

it seems Kraft is a bit peeved, Goodell might have just signed his pink slip. Good riddance.
05/12/2015 11:47:24 AM · #145
Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by nygold:

Originally posted by Mike:

the team is being penalized. They are without their best player for 4 games.


The team lost 2 draft picks and was dealt a million dollar fine.
Brady was hit with a 4 game suspension, there will be an appeal by Brady and my gut feeling is it will get knocked down to 2 games.


huh, just read that, i thought it was just the brady suspension.

it seems Kraft is a bit peeved, Goodell might have just signed his pink slip. Good riddance.


Kraft should be peeved at himself, for being such a pompous fool back in February, demanding a public apology. He's still standing by the "environmental conditions" trope, making himself look like an even bigger fool.
05/12/2015 02:09:50 PM · #146
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

IN the overall scheme of things, yeah, it's just a bump in the road. And yeah, if he did it, he should admit it. It's not like its uncommon for athletes (and teams) to look for an edge; the uncommon part is getting caught. That's just the way it is.

But I think you're reading me wrong on the "c'mon, guys" bit: I meant, the league should have taken care of this sub rosa, so to speak, and long ago, instead of organizing a sting operation and fomenting a witch hunt. It's not like the Patriots are the only team that does this stuff. Anyone who believes there's a single completely clean team playing in the NFL now, raise their hand. Anyone...? Right, I thought not...

But don't get me wrong; I'm OK with the punishment phase here. I just don't like the orchestrated, almost operatic way it all came down.


It's more a case of bad timing for Brady than anything else, after Goodell screwed up the Ray Rice incident and looked like a jackass in front of the nation he put togther an investigative team. This is their first real case so they have to show Goodell and everyone else they are not a bunch of bumbling ding dongs.
I believe half of the punishment is from the ball deflation the other half is from the lies.
05/12/2015 02:13:11 PM · #147
Originally posted by nygold:

I believe half of the punishment is from the ball deflation the other half is from the lies.

The "Lesson of Watergate" (source of the "-gate" suffix for a scandal) is that the cover-up is always worse than the crime ...
05/12/2015 02:14:39 PM · #148
Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by nygold:

Originally posted by Mike:

the team is being penalized. They are without their best player for 4 games.


The team lost 2 draft picks and was dealt a million dollar fine.
Brady was hit with a 4 game suspension, there will be an appeal by Brady and my gut feeling is it will get knocked down to 2 games.


huh, just read that, i thought it was just the brady suspension.

it seems Kraft is a bit peeved, Goodell might have just signed his pink slip. Good riddance.


Kraft actually makes money on the deal.
From Adam Schefter of ESPN.
Tom Brady's 4-game suspension costs him $1,882,352 in salary. Patriots' fine is $1M. So team actually makes $882K.
05/12/2015 02:27:40 PM · #149
Originally posted by nygold:

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by nygold:

Originally posted by Mike:

the team is being penalized. They are without their best player for 4 games.


The team lost 2 draft picks and was dealt a million dollar fine.
Brady was hit with a 4 game suspension, there will be an appeal by Brady and my gut feeling is it will get knocked down to 2 games.


huh, just read that, i thought it was just the brady suspension.

it seems Kraft is a bit peeved, Goodell might have just signed his pink slip. Good riddance.


Kraft actually makes money on the deal.
From Adam Schefter of ESPN.
Tom Brady's 4-game suspension costs him $1,882,352 in salary. Patriots' fine is $1M. So team actually makes $882K.


interesting spin!
05/12/2015 02:30:34 PM · #150
I think the fines go into the NFL Charities fund ... maybe they should do the same with the wages of players under suspension.
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