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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> Christians Vs. Religious(other) - Evidence & Proof
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Showing posts 26 - 50 of 350, (reverse)
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02/06/2015 12:07:56 AM · #26
Originally posted by Neat:

Cory you're asking the wrong questions.

Can I ask you one?

Have you even read the bible? Not the Koran, but the Holy Bible you know the best selling book in the world that not many people even bother to read?



Uhh, you're joking right? It's FAR more common for atheists to have read the Bible than for Christians to have done so. And I mean REALLY read the thing, not just flip around getting tidbits.

So, let's be honest, have you, as a Christian, ever read it cover to cover?
02/06/2015 12:10:34 AM · #27
Originally posted by dahkota:

I think your problem lies in one of your postulates: "if you've chosen Christianity, then you have considered your options."


To be clear, you can be a Christian by choice, or by other means. But to choose, one has to have had choices (preferably choices they actually understand).
02/06/2015 12:13:47 AM · #28
[why!

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 03:25:24.
02/06/2015 12:14:40 AM · #29
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by dahkota:

I think your problem lies in one of your postulates: "if you've chosen Christianity, then you have considered your options."


To be clear, you can be a Christian by choice, or by other means. But to choose, one has to have had choices (preferably choices they actually understand).


And BTW I wasn't looking for God at the time that I discovered the bible.
02/06/2015 12:26:25 AM · #30
Originally posted by Neat:

Well miracles are definetely proof of existense of God... The list would not even fit on this page!

I didn't ask for a list of miracles. I asked how a miracle would prove the existence of any god, much less a specific one. If someone wins a lottery or survives an illness despite 100 million to 1 odds, how does that prove anything other than the person happened to be the 1 in 100 million?

Originally posted by Neat:

One third of the bible is phrophecy... the time is coming when all will find out

Much of that so-called prophecy was authored well after the event, and it's hardly compelling that a prediction an author claims was made 1000 years ago about an event that happened 50 years ago came true. The rest is fortune cookie/Nostradamus stuff applied "when all will find out" to whatever seems to fit ON TOP of your bare assumption that the Bible's prophecies are coded and we're not supposed to understand them.

Originally posted by Neat:

God gave us a list of those foods which are unclean and not to be eaten...

That list includes perfectly safe shrimp, catfish and bacon, but not deadly pufferfish, so food safety isn't a credible reason. Cory's question was how do you know you won't go to hell for eating those now?
02/06/2015 12:31:47 AM · #31
[do!

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 03:25:39.
02/06/2015 12:49:04 AM · #32
Originally posted by dtremain:


Now, to be fair, I've answered your questions. Please answer mine.

Why is it so important to you to prove Christianity is false?

...Zipping up my flame-retardant fire suit


Although I did NOT try to do so in this thread, I am known to hold this view, so I will answer in the most direct way I can.

Because I believe that such a failed epistemology is almost certain to eventually lead to the destruction of our entire species. Good enough reason?

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 02:02:26.
02/06/2015 12:51:32 AM · #33
Originally posted by Neat:



As far as pork and other unclean foods go; God gave us a list of those foods which are unclean and not to be eaten not bc He wants to deprive us but He knows if eaten they will lead to sickness in the long run, isn't it much better to have a healthy body than to pollute it with by eating all sorts of creeping and detestable animals. You won't die straight away eating them, but in the long run you will get some sort of disease from constant eating of the unclean foods.


A testable hypothesis! I like this one.
02/06/2015 12:57:59 AM · #34
Originally posted by dtremain:

The categorical dismissal of any argument that doesn't conform to the rigid but constantly shifting criteria employed by most unbelievers makes it a rather moot point to have the discussion.


Oh we do disagree here. I think you've gotten the 'who moves the goalposts' quite wrong here.

I've never asked for anything other than something logically infallible or something which is a testable and falsifiable hypothesis. I think at least 95% of Atheists would agree that this is the standard we are asking for.

If you couldn't defend it in a scientific journal, it doesn't meet muster. (and do note that EVERY time science and religion have collided Science has won out... That fact alone should cause you to seriously question what you posit as truth)

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 01:00:49.
02/06/2015 01:00:17 AM · #35
I

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 03:25:52.
02/06/2015 01:02:59 AM · #36
Unlocking The Mystery of Life - have you seen this video, well worth the look. I think a lot of scientists are changing their mind about the 'theory of evolution'

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Cory to me you seem sincere, you really look like your searching for something, we were created that way, most people think there's something missing in their life and they can't quite figure out what it is, when you find it, you know what it was after all :)

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 01:04:51.
02/06/2015 01:05:06 AM · #37
Originally posted by Neat:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Neat:



As far as pork and other unclean foods go; God gave us a list of those foods which are unclean and not to be eaten not bc He wants to deprive us but He knows if eaten they will lead to sickness in the long run, isn't it much better to have a healthy body than to pollute it with by eating all sorts of creeping and detestable animals. You won't die straight away eating them, but in the long run you will get some sort of disease from constant eating of the unclean foods.


A testable hypothesis! I like this one.


Like!

Proove all things, that's what I say, don't believe me, believe the evidence.


Well, if you really will believe the evidence, there is a good deal of research out there which indicates that Shrimp are actually VERY healthy, and the dietary difference between catfish and scaled fishes is non-existent.

Pork is also known to be very healthy in comparison to the biblically accepted beef.

So, tell me what it is about this evidence which fails to make you question the accuracy of the Bible?
02/06/2015 01:05:42 AM · #38
Originally posted by Neat:

I think a lot of scientists are changing their mind about the 'theory of evolution'

You think wrong.
02/06/2015 01:07:53 AM · #39
bother!

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 03:26:07.
02/06/2015 01:08:42 AM · #40

Bye bye!

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 03:26:26.
02/06/2015 01:09:23 AM · #41
Regarding "forbidden foods", that's transcribed wisdom. Before food safety laws, before refrigeration, etc, certain things were terribly dangerous to eat. Trichinosis was endemic in swine, for example. Shrimp begin to decay very rapidly as soon as they die. Shellfish are toxin filters, and in some times of the year they are actively poisonous. So a bunch of very smart religious leaders codified this stuff into the Old Testament in the process of writing it. How else are you gonna get an entire nation, or ethnic group, to observe necessary dietary laws except by making them part of their religion?

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 01:12:05.
02/06/2015 01:10:43 AM · #42
Originally posted by Neat:

Unlocking The Mystery of Life - have you seen this video, well worth the look. I think a lot of scientists are changing their mind about the 'theory of evolution'

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Cory to me you seem sincere, you really look like your searching for something, we were created that way, most people think there's something missing in their life and they can't quite figure out what it is, when you find it, you know what it was after all :)


I am sincere, and I am searching for something (and finding it too!).. It's just that I look for truth which can be proven, not truth that is untestable.

As for the creationist stuff - I don't think ANY scientists are changing their minds - at least not scientists who specialize in relevant fields, I wouldn't have a lot of trouble believing SOCIAL scientists have converted. Absolutely NO mainstream geologist or biologist accepts "The Genesis Flood" as being defensible, there are SO many reasons it's false that it's honestly upsetting that people continue to buy into it, despite direct evidence which totally destroys the premise of the book. And this book was what lead Dr. Dean H. Kenyon (and everyone else in your video) to their beliefs. Note that Dr. Kenyon is probably the most credible scientist to ever support this, and he was a Physicist long before he was a biologist, and there's no reason that a committed Christian cannot successfully gain a PHD in a field they do not believe in. Frankly, I'm surprised that there haven't been a slew of people who go out for a Evolutionary Biology doctorate with the intent of later 'converting' to help support the neo-creationist argument. Really, I'm left to conclude that a good college education in the sciences is probably the most effective cure for this particularly malignant line of pseudo-scientific belief.

I really don't have time to break it all down, but being a fellow who holds a degree in Geology (mineralogy, but my favorite professor was a paleontologist), I think I'm probably MUCH better equipped to understand the evidence than any layperson. However, if you'd like to bring up any single point, I'll be glad to explore that with you, and demonstrate to you why the 'evidence' that you've been shown is anything but.

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 01:57:29.
02/06/2015 01:11:07 AM · #43
Our Terrorist God, written by a Christian

written by a member of this site who is a Christian but who is also examining our "Christian " beliefs and where they come from. May be of interst to some.
02/06/2015 01:12:09 AM · #44
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Regarding "forbidden foods", that's transcribed wisdom. Before food safety laws, before refrigeration, etc, certain things were terribly dangerous to eat. Trichinosis was endemic in swine, for example. So a bunch of very smart religious leaders codified this stuff into the Old Testament in the process of writing it. How else are you gonna get an entire nation, or ethnic group, to observe necessary dietary laws except by making them part of their religion?


Interestingly I hold the exact same view of this. Of course, this did nothing to answer my question, but it's good to know that we do share the same views on this matter.

Much of what is contained in the Bible is perfectly practical good advice. It's none of that which concerns me.

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 01:36:55.
02/06/2015 01:26:32 AM · #45
Originally posted by Penny Lane:

Our Terrorist God, written by a Christian

written by a member of this site who is a Christian but who is also examining our "Christian " beliefs and where they come from. May be of interst to some.


So the point is that by approaching the bible with a different mindset the entire thing changes it's nature, and God is no longer a terrorist because hell isn't really a lake of brimstone, but instead is just childish thinking?

I was not able to make any good sense out of that article - it all sounds really good until you try to summarize it, then it just seems like there are a lot of words that go around in circles. I see someone there who is taking the first steps in mental freedom - the simple act of asking questions and examining beliefs is the most powerful ally Atheists have. After all, we know that the original sin was to take in knowledge, so clearly knowing things is presented as bad - any guesses as to what I think the reason for that is?

Speaking of terrorist God - in the bible God kills just short of 2,500,000 people which are directly accounted for. Including ALL the deaths he directly caused, including those without exact counts, this number goes up to something like 25,000,000 people.

Now, Satan in the bible was responsible for 10 accounted for killings, most of which were at God's behest. If you include the killings without exact numbers, the estimate rises to about 60 people.

So basically, we're left with a fellow who is a serious narcissistic psychopath and a guy who followed that psychopath for a bit before bailing out. I'm honestly not sure how anyone can read the bible and not come away thinking "Geez, that God fellow is pretty awful, and while he talks a good game about love, actions speak louder than words"..

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 01:38:22.
02/06/2015 01:30:10 AM · #46
I think most "rules" you find in scriptures ( from any religion) come from these kinds of original sorces, health and safety. Even the sex stuff I reckon. In times before contraception how did you stop unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases/infections? You told people to abstain. ( male )Masturbation as a sin comes from the fact that tribes needed to multiply their numbers and grow for survival resulting in the Monty Python "every sperm is sacred" rule. Don't waste your sperm!! Use it to inpregnate and muliply!
Many other rules come from the male dominated culture of the time and were there to keep women in their place. The verses on man laying with another man, are talking about rape and shaming and sexual sacrifices to false gods, NOT about two people of the same gender loving each other.

We read the bible today and try to read it as a literal interpretation of how we should live. I believe it is not intended as a manual for life but as one way to get a glimps of God's heart. We have to sift through what is cultural, what is relevant and what isn't.
God and science aren't polar opposites, God is in science and science is in God. God is bigger and way more fantastic than we could even try to imagine and trying to "prove" his existence is a waste of time. I have all the proof I need in the people around me, my Christian friends, my agnostic family, my athiest friends, in nature, in space, in weather, in my dogs in science and discovery. Once you let go of the "rules" God becomes more visable, more tangible :)

Here endeth the sermon lol :P

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 01:32:30.
02/06/2015 01:30:48 AM · #47
Originally posted by Neat:



I would love to see where you are getting your info from, probably faulty reasoning like a lot of studies are these days.


Umm. I included a link.

If you'd like I could go dig out some journal papers on this, but my guess is that you don't understand why those are so trustworthy, as your statement above belies a total lack of understanding of the peer-review process.

Trust me when I tell you the only people scientists enjoy calling out more than theists are other scientists.
02/06/2015 01:35:32 AM · #48
fair enough. :) thanks for taking the time to read it :)

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Penny Lane:

Our Terrorist God, written by a Christian

written by a member of this site who is a Christian but who is also examining our "Christian " beliefs and where they come from. May be of interst to some.


So the point is that by approaching the bible with a different mindset the entire thing changes it's nature, and God is no longer a terrorist because hell isn't really a lake of brimstone, bu instead is just childish thinking?

I was not able to make any good sense out of that article - it all sounds really good until you try to summarize it, then it just seems like there are a lot of words that go around in circles. I see someone there who is taking the first steps in mental freedom - the simple act of asking questions and examining beliefs is the most powerful ally Atheists have. After all, we know that the original sin was to take in knowledge, so clearly knowing things is presented as bad - any guesses as to what I think the reason for that is?

Speaking of terrorist God - in the bible God kills just short of 2,500,000 people which are directly accounted for. Including ALL the deaths he directly caused, including those without exact counts, this number goes up to something like 25,000,000 people.

Now, Satan in the bible was responsible for 10 accounted for killings, most of which were at God's behest. If you include the killings without exact numbers, the estimate rises to about 60 people.
02/06/2015 01:39:43 AM · #49
Originally posted by Penny Lane:

fair enough. :) thanks for taking the time to read it :)


You're absolutely welcome. As much as I enjoy stirring the shit, these conversations are taken seriously by me.

And frankly, I think this is one of the most fascinating threads I've yet read on the subject. I'm enjoying seeing how others come to their conclusions - and while I really have a horrible knee-jerk to the "I'm a Christian because I'm a Christian" answers, the truth is that I appreciate the honesty of that response very much.

I do think people have kind of avoided answering the actual questions as posed, but that's ok - at least they were useful in setting the ground rules for this conversation just a little differently than most of these threads, and so far it seems to be generally productive.

Sure, I want to convert every Christian in the world, but mutual understanding is the next best thing.

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 01:43:56.
02/06/2015 01:41:23 AM · #50
Originally posted by Cory:

Speaking of terrorist God - in the bible God kills just short of 2,500,000 people which are directly accounted for. Including ALL the deaths he directly caused, including those without exact counts, this number goes up to something like 25,000,000 people.

Given a fervent belief that the active, interventionist Christian God is omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent, he must be directly accountable for ALL deaths and acts of terror. If he didn't know they would occur, he's not omniscient. If he couldn't stop them from occurring, he's not omnipotent. If he knew death and terror would occur and could stop it, but chose not to, then he's not benevolent.

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 01:41:38.
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