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10/26/2015 10:34:35 PM · #1
The former 2nd place winner has been disqualified because a valid unmarked-by-software original was not available.

It can happen to anyone...but it's a good time to remind everyone to be careful what you use to view your JPEGs on your SD/CF cards. It's best to copy them off using the stock file manaager, or at least an app you know won't modify the EXIF.

Congratulations to those in the new placements!

10/27/2015 07:43:22 AM · #2
I hate how easily the metadata on JPG files can get messed up. That's why I always download my JPGs into two folders before I do anything with them. I name one folder JPG originals and I never go near that one. And I had to buy a card reader to use with the memory card from my little Canon SX700 because it was impossible to download valid originals direct from the camera.
10/27/2015 07:51:46 AM · #3
I was hoping to possibly ribbon, but not that way. Lydia's image was one of my favorites in the challenge. :(
10/27/2015 04:32:43 PM · #4
Originally posted by backdoorhippie:

I was hoping to possibly ribbon, but not that way. Lydia's image was one of my favorites in the challenge. :(


Thanks, Jake! That's almost as good as a ribbon.

Nah... I'm just kidding. It's not at all as good as a ribbon. LOL!

But, it's really, really sweet of you! :D

I viewed my image in Windows Image Viewer and apparently, I rotated it when I viewed it.

Life happens. We all survived. :D

10/27/2015 05:34:41 PM · #5
Originally posted by Lydia:

I viewed my image in Windows Image Viewer and apparently, I rotated it when I viewed it.

No RAW file?
10/27/2015 05:36:37 PM · #6
Originally posted by Lydia:

Thanks, Jake! That's almost as good as a ribbon.

Nah... I'm just kidding. It's not at all as good as a ribbon. LOL!

But, it's really, really sweet of you! :D

I viewed my image in Windows Image Viewer and apparently, I rotated it when I viewed it.

Life happens. We all survived. :D


And that is about as close to ridiculous as things get. It has me wondering if you'd rotated it and rotated it back, and then rotated it elsewhere, would it have been an issue? And it makes me glad I'm working on a Mac, and doing EVERYTHING in Lightroom with non-destructive editing. :)
10/27/2015 05:37:09 PM · #7
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Lydia:

I viewed my image in Windows Image Viewer and apparently, I rotated it when I viewed it.

No RAW file?


can't you only shoot in jpg for minimal?
10/27/2015 05:39:23 PM · #8
Originally posted by smardaz:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Lydia:

I viewed my image in Windows Image Viewer and apparently, I rotated it when I viewed it.

No RAW file?


can't you only shoot in jpg for minimal?

Correct. You can shoot RAW+JPEG, but for DPC validation purposes only the native JPEG is a valid original; you can later reprocess the RAW file for other purposes ...
10/27/2015 07:17:54 PM · #9
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Correct. You can shoot RAW+JPEG, but for DPC validation purposes only the native JPEG is a valid original; you can later reprocess the RAW file for other purposes ...

I had a RAW image accepted for validation purposes once when I had an original requested.

Cannot that same latitude be extended to Lydia if she has a RAW file?
10/27/2015 08:59:32 PM · #10
Oh! You're the sweetest one,j Jeb!

Alas! I don't have a RAW.

Shot only in jpeg. Sigh.
10/27/2015 09:41:50 PM · #11
aweeeee so sorry!
10/27/2015 09:44:29 PM · #12
That's always what makes me cringe when it's minimal editing: working with the jpeg. I shoot RAW now, and I get paranoid working with jpegs.

That being said, I'm forever grateful to Melethia for telling me to shoot in small jpg + RAW. Then if I want to post things on social media (without bothering to clean them up), I can just use those files and not have to convert a bunch of RAW files. I just trash the small jpgs that I don't need.

sorry for the DQ, Lydia!!
10/27/2015 10:38:52 PM · #13
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Correct. You can shoot RAW+JPEG, but for DPC validation purposes only the native JPEG is a valid original; you can later reprocess the RAW file for other purposes ...

I had a RAW image accepted for validation purposes once when I had an original requested.

Cannot that same latitude be extended to Lydia if she has a RAW file?

Not under the Minimal rules.
10/28/2015 11:28:00 AM · #14
I am NOT asking for any favors, but I'd like to point out for future issues that the only "editing" that Windows Image Viewer can do, as far as I can see, is to rotate an image in quantities of 90 degrees.

Rotating an image in quantities of 90 degrees is legal under all rulesets.

10/28/2015 12:02:36 PM · #15
Originally posted by Lydia:

I am NOT asking for any favors, but I'd like to point out for future issues that the only "editing" that Windows Image Viewer can do, as far as I can see, is to rotate an image in quantities of 90 degrees.

Rotating an image in quantities of 90 degrees is legal under all rulesets.


AFAIK, you are precisely correct... making this a *very* odd case. The SC normally has to assume that if a file is tagged by editing/viewing software, then they cannot know whether editing took place, so they can't compare the "original" to the submission. In the case of Windows Photo Viewer and the minimal rules, however, it seems that the software is not capable of any function that would invalidate that comparison. I don't recall this ever being discussed during my tenure on SC.
There is an open question as to how Photo Viewer "changes" the orientation of the image... it probably does not actually change image data, but just writes metadata that tells other applications how to rotate; there is the small chance that it actually reorients the JPEG data, in which case the file is definitely not an original, as re-compression would take place. I strongly suspect this is not the case.

10/28/2015 01:11:03 PM · #16
But wouldn't that open up the following loophole:

1. Edit the photo in application of choice
2. Open the photo in Windows Photo Viewer
3. Rotate

Now you have a JPEG that says it was "edited" in windows photo viewer.

Sure, if someone got caught doing that, they would be banned. But is it possible to catch this without the person fessing up?
10/28/2015 01:48:59 PM · #17
Originally posted by giantmike:

But wouldn't that open up the following loophole:

1. Edit the photo in application of choice
2. Open the photo in Windows Photo Viewer
3. Rotate

Now you have a JPEG that says it was "edited" in windows photo viewer.

Sure, if someone got caught doing that, they would be banned. But is it possible to catch this without the person fessing up?


Perhaps, perhaps not. Might even depend on the editor used. The complexity of questions like this is why the rule is the way it is. BTW, I didn't mean to imply that the conditions for validation of an original should change, and in fact I really don't believe they should.
It's one reason why I *really* don't like minimal editing. Any ruleset that rules out a RAW capture seems to me to be problematic.
10/28/2015 02:19:34 PM · #18
The big thing here, for me at least, is to make sure you always keep a backup copy of the original when shooting JPEG's for Minimal challenges. I was in a panic myself when I was asked to give my original because I'm so used to just plowing forward with RAW files that I did nothing to ensure that I didn't accidentally mess with my original. I was smart in that I made a virtual copy in Lightroom and did my desaturation on that and then resized in PS, but I'd also rotated the original image in Lightroom before making the virtual copy, so I could have easily been in the same boat as Lydia if LR adjustments weren't non-destructive.

So for the Yellow challenge, make a backup of your image before you do anything!! ;)
10/28/2015 02:27:42 PM · #19
Originally posted by Lydia:

I am NOT asking for any favors, but I'd like to point out for future issues that the only "editing" that Windows Image Viewer can do, as far as I can see, is to rotate an image in quantities of 90 degrees.

Rotating an image in quantities of 90 degrees is legal under all rulesets.

Unfortunately, this has happened countless times. It seems that the tip for properly downloading standard jpeg pics into a folder should be in a welcome packet. I can't even begin to tell you how many people have been DQed and/or lost ribbons because they allowed windows to install their files in a folder rather than doing it manually.

Message edited by author 2015-10-28 14:28:15.
10/28/2015 06:16:30 PM · #20
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Lydia:

I am NOT asking for any favors, but I'd like to point out for future issues that the only "editing" that Windows Image Viewer can do, as far as I can see, is to rotate an image in quantities of 90 degrees.

Rotating an image in quantities of 90 degrees is legal under all rulesets.

Unfortunately, this has happened countless times. It seems that the tip for properly downloading standard jpeg pics into a folder should be in a welcome packet. I can't even begin to tell you how many people have been DQed and/or lost ribbons because they allowed windows to install their files in a folder rather than doing it manually.


I've always done it manually but still couldn't get a valid original on my Canon SX700. There's something about that camera that just won't let it download without changing metadata. The only way I could find to solve the problem was to use a card reader. I still wonder whether I was making a mistake somewhere though, because it just doesn't make sense that a camera should behave that way.
10/31/2015 03:13:48 PM · #21
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Correct. You can shoot RAW+JPEG, but for DPC validation purposes only the native JPEG is a valid original; you can later reprocess the RAW file for other purposes ...

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I had a RAW image accepted for validation purposes once when I had an original requested.

Cannot that same latitude be extended to Lydia if she has a RAW file?

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Not under the Minimal rules.

Can we discuss this further?

If this is really the case, in my situation SC made an exception, or someone is not on the same page as you.

I don't see a specific exclusion of a simultaneous RAW image as a validation tool.

Obviously, if you're shooting RAW & jpeg, the image will be the same, but shouldn't there be a specific clause in the minimal rules stating that the RAW image will NOT be accepted for validation?

That way if it's spelled out, it's etched in stone. (Hopefully, this not being spelled out will not cause a retroactive DQ for me, but hey.......rules is rules!)
10/31/2015 04:08:34 PM · #22
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Correct. You can shoot RAW+JPEG, but for DPC validation purposes only the native JPEG is a valid original; you can later reprocess the RAW file for other purposes ...

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I had a RAW image accepted for validation purposes once when I had an original requested.

Cannot that same latitude be extended to Lydia if she has a RAW file?

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Not under the Minimal rules.

Can we discuss this further?

If this is really the case, in my situation SC made an exception, or someone is not on the same page as you.

I don't see a specific exclusion of a simultaneous RAW image as a validation tool.

Originally posted by Minimal Rules:


You may not:

* Use a RAW original or RAW conversion software. You may shoot in RAW+JPG mode, provided you use the JPG original to create your entry.

It says that the JPEG is the "original" -- if you could submit the RAW file there's no way to demonstrate that the submission is the same as the (possibly non-existent) JPEG, and that it has not been processed to appear differently that the simultaneous JPEG would.

For example, I might be shooting RAW+JPEG (if I had a DSLR) and have forgotten that I have the WB set to Tungsten (I have done this), so all my JPEGs are blue. No problem, if I can take the RAW file and change the WB to daylight it will look great -- so great it wins a ribbon. No problem that is, if I can conveniently "lose" the stupid blue JPEG original and submit the RAW file ... :-(
10/31/2015 05:22:36 PM · #23
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Minimal Rules:


You may not:

* Use a RAW original or RAW conversion software. You may shoot in RAW+JPG mode, provided you use the JPG original to create your entry.

It says that the JPEG is the "original" -- if you could submit the RAW file there's no way to demonstrate that the submission is the same as the (possibly non-existent) JPEG, and that it has not been processed to appear differently that the simultaneous JPEG would.

For example, I might be shooting RAW+JPEG (if I had a DSLR) and have forgotten that I have the WB set to Tungsten (I have done this), so all my JPEGs are blue. No problem, if I can take the RAW file and change the WB to daylight it will look great -- so great it wins a ribbon. No problem that is, if I can conveniently "lose" the stupid blue JPEG original and submit the RAW file ... :-(

I understand the principle......and as the RAW file cannot be changed, your RAW image would still show the WB issue.

At risk of shooting myself in the foot, I did have a RAW file accepted to validate my entry about two and a half years ago.

I'm just saying that if it's stated that this will not happen, then it would be clear.
10/31/2015 07:21:19 PM · #24
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

At risk of shooting myself in the foot, I did have a RAW file accepted to validate my entry about two and a half years ago.

That would have been under advanced editing or basic editing, then, where you'd mistakenly worked on an original JPG. Or that's my guess, anyway; the RAW'S perfectly acceptable as a proof file in that situation. For the matter of that, people who have slow connections can shoot RAW+JPG small and use the JPG for proof on an image processed off the RAW: it's a lot smaller to upload so it's faster. But of course, as always, it's dangerous to rely on a jpg for proof, on basic principles.

Anyhow, if you can show us a case where we validated a MINIMAL entry via a RAW capture, I wish you would; if it really happened someone goofed big-time.
10/31/2015 07:24:43 PM · #25
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

At risk of shooting myself in the foot, I did have a RAW file accepted to validate my entry about two and a half years ago.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

That would have been under advanced editing or basic editing, then, where you'd mistakenly worked on an original JPG. Or that's my guess, anyway; the RAW'S perfectly acceptable as a proof file in that situation. For the matter of that, people who have slow connections can shoot RAW+JPG small and use the JPG for proof on an image processed off the RAW: it's a lot smaller to upload so it's faster. But of course, as always, it's dangerous to rely on a jpg for proof, on basic principles.

Anyhow, if you can show us a case where we validated a MINIMAL entry via a RAW capture, I wish you would; if it really happened someone goofed big-time.

It was for this one......my one & only Fourth Place and one of my fav pics of my little girl.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1719/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1057303.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1719/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1057303.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Note the second to last comment......I had already mentioned in the challenge thread that I thought I was DQed for not being able to produce the jpeg file.

Sigh...

Edited to ask.....do you save the validation files for the 1st thru 5th place winners in perpetuity?

Message edited by author 2015-10-31 19:26:30.
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