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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Should low voters have to justify their marks???
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10/08/2004 09:06:34 PM · #1
I have been looking at the results for the current masters challenge ans saw that on the winning photo, some people had marked it as a one. Surely these people are not voting fairly as there is no way that anyone, even the blind could vote that as a 1.
What I ask is this.
1. The people who voted 1, have they an entry in the challenge also.
2. Should then be contacted (randomly) and asked why they voted that picture so low.

This has probably been mentioned before, but maybe now is the time to do something about it??
10/08/2004 09:18:45 PM · #2
I asked something like this. To require comment for 1's, 2's, and 10's. The answer I got was that most of these people would just start voting 3's. So it really won't help (that'll just bring everyone's score higher). I don't know if there's anything we can do about it.
10/08/2004 09:23:34 PM · #3
IMO, you can't do anything about it.
10/08/2004 09:33:55 PM · #4
> Should low voters have to justify their marks???

No, its a vote, not a quiz.


10/08/2004 09:39:37 PM · #5
Originally posted by vfwlkr:

> Should low voters have to justify their marks???

No, its a vote, not a quiz.


Not when it purely for rigging purposes.... alledgedly..

10/08/2004 10:13:23 PM · #6
If low votes need to be justified then high votes should too... Asking for forced comments for scores of 1 is just a way to remove the anonymity of votes... Bad idea
10/08/2004 10:39:02 PM · #7
People should be able to vote however they want. The ones and twos on good photos are fairly consistent and do not seem to affect the rankings of photos, so why worry about it?
10/08/2004 10:42:53 PM · #8
no
10/08/2004 10:54:29 PM · #9
How about we just ask those who want to tell everyone!

If you gave a 1 to one of the photos in the "masters" challenge, and you would like the world to know why..... feel free to post your comments and reasons here. :)

I think open challenges are fun and all, but the scoring is of little value really. Honestly... How do you compare a little Girl blowing bubbles to a gas station? How does one decide which is a better shot between a landscape and a kiwi splashing in water? They were all really outstanding shots in their own genre.
10/08/2004 10:54:40 PM · #10
Originally posted by Jacko:

no


What he said!
10/08/2004 10:59:17 PM · #11
Should high voters have to justify their marks ?

Should anyone that doesn't conform to the average be removed from the challenge ?

How many comments like 'I don't like it - 1' do you want to read before you understand that maybe people just don't like a particular picture. It doesn't have to be a conspiracy. There have been many top 10 finishers I've given scores below 3. It wasn't to help my picture win. It was just that I didn't like the picture.

Message edited by author 2004-10-08 23:05:13.
10/08/2004 11:13:46 PM · #12
Originally posted by Gordon:

Should high voters have to justify their marks ?

Should anyone that doesn't conform to the average be removed from the challenge ?

How many comments like 'I don't like it - 1' do you want to read before you understand that maybe people just don't like a particular picture. It doesn't have to be a conspiracy. There have been many top 10 finishers I've given scores below 3. It wasn't to help my picture win. It was just that I didn't like the picture.

The real question is whether to judge an image based on a set of standards we can agree on (I believe such standards exist), or whether to express our personal taste for the image itself. Judging and voting are not the same. I feel it would be best to try and separate them. That calls for a different scoring scheme.

10/08/2004 11:20:32 PM · #13
There is already a system in place to disallow someone's scores if they are giving out too many high or low numbers. I feel that all other votes are fine and do not need to be questioned.

T
10/08/2004 11:31:50 PM · #14
But what stinks is when, let's say George knows which photo is Tom's and Tom's score is higher than his by .003. George goes back and revotes for Tom's and lowers it to a 1 instead of a 7. Now, guess who is in the lead? George!

I do think this goes on. I don't want any part of it. My score for some reason dropped that last few hours of voting for the Master's challenge.

What can we do? Nothing. There are always going to be people do that. The only thing you can do is just enjoy the fun. Let it go. (which is hard)
10/08/2004 11:44:48 PM · #15
Originally posted by Sonifo:

But what stinks is when, let's say George knows which photo is Tom's and Tom's score is higher than his by .003.


How is George going to know which photo is Tom's and what his score is currently at unless Tom is allowing George to know? I can't know what someone else's score is during the challenge unless I am on their computer or have access to their password. So if Tom is in some way allowing George to know his score then he is sharing the responsibilty of the results of those actions.

T
10/08/2004 11:46:38 PM · #16
Look at how many people knew which photo was mine in the Member's challenge. Lots!
I am not saying that they lowered their scores! I am not accusing anyone.

I also knew which one was heida's just by the editing. :-)

Originally posted by timj351:

Originally posted by Sonifo:

But what stinks is when, let's say George knows which photo is Tom's and Tom's score is higher than his by .003.


How is George going to know which photo is Tom's and what his score is currently at unless Tom is allowing George to know? I can't know what someone else's score is during the challenge unless I am on their computer or have access to their password. So if Tom is in some way allowing George to know his score then he is sharing the responsibilty of the results of those actions.

T


Message edited by author 2004-10-08 23:47:25.
10/08/2004 11:48:53 PM · #17
This is a problem which finds no happy answers. The site gives each member the right to vote as he likes. Some members take this responsibility with great respect and they follow voting guidelines.
Their true objective is to advance the quality of the site and to pay respect where respect is due.

A small group use the voting tool as a punitive weapon. Some have a distaste for the studio shot, others have a distaste for images they feel have stretched the rules and some vote low on something that looks too good simply because they have the power to upset the cart. Others vote against images which may beat theirs and the reasons continue and are too many to enumerate.

A small example, after 100 votes my image in the master's was in the low 5.4. Well, look at the votes. Meanwhile I voted in my regular style and I even commented that I am giving an image a seven, even though I know that this will spread my divide even greater, but that the work before me, and most, deserved my high scoring. No, I was not giving out tens, but the greater span ran berween 6 and 9.

So yes, there are many reasons and if you follow some threads you will see a group that sets up to vote low certain images. I remember in the Blue Moon challenge, a thread arose which promised to vote down to 1 and 2 any images which contained a moon. This prompted me to put an entry with a fake moon to invoke their petty ire even more.

Voting is what it is but the consolation is that when there are over 300 votes, these low votes have virtually no effect. When the voting is less, it hurts more because often it spells the difference between the coveted prizes.

It is the nature of the beast and the only defense is to increase the voting so that the voting count is as high as possible. Everybody who care should vote and this being done will take care of the spoiler votes.
10/09/2004 01:31:24 AM · #18
in many ways, watching your score fluctuate is no different than watching waves come up on the beach. some crash, some slide in. sometimes they come one after another, and then there are calm lulls.

the voting is like this, and you will drive yourself absolute batsh*t trying to understand why your score seems to drop wildly during a certain period. there is no more predictability here than forecasting how far the next wave will come up the beach. the only safe thing to do is to stop watching your score, pick up your camera, and go shoot something.

Message edited by author 2004-10-09 01:31:51.
10/09/2004 01:43:25 AM · #19
I tried explaining low votes in the current challenge. What I got was a lot of PMs telling me that I didn't know what I was talking about, didn't I see this or that, why they did too meet the challenge to the letter, etc., etc. Do these folks have the right to question my comment (even though I didn't say what my vote was) - sure they do. But I'll be rethinking my position about being so open in the future.
10/09/2004 01:45:57 AM · #20
Originally posted by Gatorguy:

I tried explaining low votes in the current challenge. What I got was a lot of PMs telling me that I didn't know what I was talking about, didn't I see this or that, why they did too meet the challenge to the letter, etc., etc. Do these folks have the right to question my comment (even though I didn't say what my vote was) - sure they do. But I'll be rethinking my position about being so open in the future.

i guess if you wanted to have fun, you could go through an entire challenge, vote everyone a 10, but leave them a comment that they didn't meet the challenge, then have fun reading all the pms...
10/09/2004 02:34:45 AM · #21
It would be very hard for DPC to do anything that would improve the voting system that we already have. We all just have to be honest with our votes and forget about our average when voting. Some of the ways we can do this is:
1. Donít share your submission with anyone that has the ability to vote, prior to and during the challenge. Not even for advice from friends and fellow DCPíers.
2. If you feel like your may adjust votes because of you current average [which is wrong] go to DPC Home > My preferences and look on the right side of the screen and uncheck the box that says ďmy scoresĒ then scroll down and click save. You will not be able to view your current scores but you can still view your comments during voting by click on your submission thumbnail on DPC home page during the challenge.
3. Donít PM or email a voter because of his/her comment. I have been guilty of this even as recent as yesterday. After thinking about what I had done I knew I had made a mistake. Comments help me and by emailing the voter I may cause them to comment less.
Other than that everyone just be honest. I think 99% of the voters are honest and lets have fun.

Message edited by author 2004-10-09 02:35:39.
10/09/2004 10:48:29 AM · #22
Originally posted by lenkphotos:

The real question is whether to judge an image based on a set of standards we can agree on (I believe such standards exist), or whether to express our personal taste for the image itself. Judging and voting are not the same. I feel it would be best to try and separate them. That calls for a different scoring scheme.


I'm not sure how this is possible. Art is so subjective, and so variable in perception from one person to the next that it does not seem realistic to have everyone judging a photo using the same standards. What is the old adage? One person's garbage is another person's treasure? Something along those lines, anyway.

I would definitely be interested in the standards you mention, though.

Message edited by author 2004-10-09 10:48:55.
10/09/2004 12:00:24 PM · #23
Threads like this one seem to repeat every few months. How do you guys know so much about what is in the minds of those who cast low votes, their motivations?

And how come nobody complains about high votes for images they don't care for? Why isn't there talk about ulterior motives and name calling directed at people who vote high?

Isn't it all just people not accepting the fact that someone else doesn't like an image as well as they do?

In my scheme for voting I make an effort to decide which are the best and the worst entries in every challenge, and therefore, give at least one 1 and one 10 almost every time. Anyone want to psychoanaylze that?
10/09/2004 12:10:32 PM · #24
Originally posted by coolhar:

In my scheme for voting I make an effort to decide which are the best and the worst entries in every challenge, and therefore, give at least one 1 and one 10 almost every time. Anyone want to psychoanaylze that?

Sounds like a definite case of latent sanity.
10/09/2004 12:19:59 PM · #25
Originally posted by SDW65:

It would be very hard for DPC to do anything that would improve the voting system that we already have.

In my opinion, I'm not sure this is necessarily true. Although I've brought this up in the past (read my posts in this thread and this thread), I'll mention it briefly again for those that are new. Other sites address the issue of "unreasonable votes" through the concept of "voter karma".

Basically, it is an automated system that determines how much your vote will count towards the final results. (Right now on DPC, every vote counts the same, unless the "vote scrubber" determines you are voting too many pictures with 1's or 2's in which case all your votes in that challenge are ignored.) If you vote reasonably, you karma is "high" and your votes count like they do today. But if your voting habits show that you vote unreasonably, your votes count less and less (until you start to vote reasonably again).

Whenever this concept is brought up, people cry "No way! That system sucks! If I want to vote a picture a 1 I should be able to!" without realizing how the whole system works. You need to understand deviation, karma, etc. and how the various aspects of participating on the site affect those things. For example, your karma would also increase when you vote on more than the required minimum: you'd get some amount for voting on 50%, a little more for 75% and even more for voting on 100% of the challenge entries. Same thing with comments.

And when you vote, just because you gave a ribbon-winner a 1 does not mean that next time your votes would count for less, as long as you voted reasonably on the majority of the other images. The karma "ding" on that image would be offset by the karma calculations on the other images in the challenge. The system that Worth1000 uses to determine whether your vote is reasonable is simply based on your vote being within +/- 3 of the final score. So if the ribbon winner scored a 7.000, you could have ranked that picture anywhere from a 10 to a 4 and you would be considered to have voted reasonably -- plenty of latitude to express your "personal" feelings about the photo. It obviously must have some redeeming qualities (which voters should learn to recognize) to have won a ribbon. Likewise, if the last-place image had a 4.000, you could vote it anywhere from 7 to 1 and be considered to be voting reasonably on that image. So if someone had their friends sign up and give that image a 10 and all the rest a 1, their scores would have much less of impact on the final results because of the "unreasonable" natures of their votes.

Quoting from the Worth1000 FAQ:

"This is not a system of punishment and reward, nor is it a judgement of your personal tastes. It's merely a way to measure your ability to discern actual image quality, and allows plenty of room for your individual tastes to come into play without damaging your karma. It maximizes the effects that consistantly fair and observant voters have on an entry's average, and minimizes the effects that 'quirky' or downright dishonest voters can have. Trust us. It works."

I don't want to re-hash all of the specifics again here; you can read the above-referenced threads for more information and previous reaction.

On an unrelated note: I am all for having scores hidden until the results are posted, and have been a proponent of that for a long time. I do think seeing your current score influences "self-serving" voters.

Message edited by author 2004-10-09 12:29:30.
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