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10/25/2018 10:26:34 PM · #51
Originally posted by salmiakki:

Originally posted by nam:

So just what IS the "current frequency"?


In 2018, there have been 5 minimal challenges completed and one in submission, more in 2017

Because I'm a bit geeky and like stats and excel, I have compiled a list of the number of minimal/expert challenges over the years.

The stats suggest that the minimal challenges are in fact more popular than the expert challenges as the average number of entries per challenge are higher for minimal than for extended. I excluded the extended free studies from these stats as there is no comparable challenge for the minimal editing ruleset. However, even including the extended free studies, the average number of entries per challenge is higher for minimal than extended/expert.

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Love the stats. Thanks!
10/25/2018 11:03:25 PM · #52
Originally posted by salmiakki:

Originally posted by nam:

So just what IS the "current frequency"?


In 2018, there have been 5 minimal challenges completed and one in submission, more in 2017

Because I'm a bit geeky and like stats and excel, I have compiled a list of the number of minimal/expert challenges over the years.

The stats suggest that the minimal challenges are in fact more popular than the expert challenges as the average number of entries per challenge are higher for minimal than for extended. I excluded the extended free studies from these stats as there is no comparable challenge for the minimal editing ruleset. However, even including the extended free studies, the average number of entries per challenge is higher for minimal than extended/expert.

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Interesting. Thanks Sarah.
10/26/2018 02:45:36 PM · #53
My vote would be "Never", but of course that is not an option. It has been pointed out that you can enter a minimally processed photo in (almost) every challenge. The usual comeback is that a minimal photo can't compete with a processed photo. So what are we really trying to prove with a minimal challenge? That someone has taken the time to change settings from RAW to JPG, that they have taken the time to learn how to process in camera? Isn't the purpose of DPC to help us improve our results? If I can spend two seconds in Lightroom correcting white balance, why spend two hours figuring out how to do it in camera?

Yes, the better the shots are in-camera, the easier it is to process. And processing cannot turn a turd into a diamond (unless you make something abstract). But a good start made great in processing is still a great image. Does it really matter how you got there?
10/26/2018 04:10:48 PM · #54
Originally posted by Elaine:

... So what are we really trying to prove with a minimal challenge? ...

So what are we really trying to prove with an Expert editing challenge? That you're awesome with photo editing skills and will spend hours in post putting together an end result?

Minimal - awesome with camera settings and getting it right pre-shutter release.
Expert - awesome with post processing skills and tweaking post-shutter release.

I'm not saying "never" to Expert challenges. There's room for both, with a pile more Standard challenges in between.
10/26/2018 04:21:01 PM · #55
Originally posted by Elaine:

My vote would be "Never", but of course that is not an option. It has been pointed out that you can enter a minimally processed photo in (almost) every challenge. The usual comeback is that a minimal photo can't compete with a processed photo. So what are we really trying to prove with a minimal challenge? That someone has taken the time to change settings from RAW to JPG, that they have taken the time to learn how to process in camera? Isn't the purpose of DPC to help us improve our results? If I can spend two seconds in Lightroom correcting white balance, why spend two hours figuring out how to do it in camera?

Yes, the better the shots are in-camera, the easier it is to process. And processing cannot turn a turd into a diamond (unless you make something abstract). But a good start made great in processing is still a great image. Does it really matter how you got there?

If you have no interest in Minimal, that's fine, but the perpetual specious caveat about entering a Minimal entry is really tiring as well as mildly insulting. It's simply not a level playing field and you know it.

The purpose is NOT to try to affect in camera processing to mimic what you would normally do in post, it's to capture a stunning image, composed and delivered as shot. That's the point of Minimal editing.

And if you can't see the value in pushing yourself to create a great image completely untouched, fine, don't enter. But this also isn't only about you, it's something that has been a part of DPC for a long time, and there are those of us that appreciate the challenge of it. I know my 4th place HM with a portrait is one of the images of which I am most proud.

To the people who seem to be so vehemently opposed to Minimal editing challenges.....it's just like being opposed to anything in life that's optional. If it's not your cup of tea, DON'T participate. But don't speak up in opposition to people who do want to participate, especially when it doesn't affect you in the slightest. To deny someone else something because you don't approve, or have any interest, is simply imposing your will on others, which, historically, does not end well.
10/26/2018 04:27:51 PM · #56
Originally posted by Elaine:

... So what are we really trying to prove with a minimal challenge? ...

Originally posted by glad2badad:

So what are we really trying to prove with an Expert editing challenge? That you're awesome with photo editing skills and will spend hours in post putting together an end result?

Minimal - awesome with camera settings and getting it right pre-shutter release.
Expert - awesome with post processing skills and tweaking post-shutter release.

I'm not saying "never" to Expert challenges. There's room for both, with a pile more Standard challenges in between.

Another good point. You don't hear people who don't participate in the Extended editing challenges trying to shut them down entirely. Why then is there a distinct notion being permeated to do so with Minimal? Accoding to Sara's research, there are more participants for minimal than Extended, so what the heck???

I love looking at the Extended offerings, they're amazing! But I'd rather chew my own arm off than spend two hours editing one image.

It's funny, 'cause I spend so little time editing any more. I learned HERE at DPC that the better image I shoot initially, the less time I have to spend in post.

Guess what? It's TRUE!!!!
10/26/2018 04:54:43 PM · #57
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

To deny someone else something because you don't approve, or have any interest, is simply imposing your will on others, which, historically, does not end well.

Puritanism is the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
10/26/2018 04:58:49 PM · #58
Disclaimer: I don't shoot for Minimal challenges. While I see (great) value in getting things right at the time of capture, to me that does not imply that *no* optimizations are done later.
That said, I recognize that others in the community like these challenges. Seems that the consensus is that the current frequency is acceptable to most, but that a substantial number of folks would like a slightly increased frequency. I'm fine with that.
10/26/2018 06:44:14 PM · #59
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

You don't hear people who don't participate in the Extended editing challenges trying to shut them down entirely.


I've heard plenty of that, actually. I think there is blame on both sides. But you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides

10/26/2018 07:46:27 PM · #60
fake news.

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

You don't hear people who don't participate in the Extended editing challenges trying to shut them down entirely.


I've heard plenty of that, actually. I think there is blame on both sides. But you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides
10/26/2018 11:08:48 PM · #61
Even the experts say to shoot in RAW and make at least global adjustments with Camera RAW or Lightroom. If you want things straight out of the camera other than composition, focus and exposure you just as well use the program mode. Some of you need to get out of the stone-age and use the tools available.
10/26/2018 11:29:00 PM · #62
Learn your camera. Read the manual. Those are also tools that will serve you well.
10/26/2018 11:32:18 PM · #63
Originally posted by gipper11:

Even the experts say to shoot in RAW and make at least global adjustments with Camera RAW or Lightroom. If you want things straight out of the camera other than composition, focus and exposure you just as well use the program mode. Some of you need to get out of the stone-age and use the tools available.

Experts???

Do tell, what may they be?

Guess what?

If you're a good photographer, you don't need a bunch of post-processing to create a good image.

Over time, you'll learn this.

Message edited by author 2018-10-26 23:32:45.
10/27/2018 12:00:17 AM · #64
I don't believe I said a bunch of post-processing, I said some global adjustments. Most of the experts are not on this site, just take a look at the car detail contest going on right now and you may see what I am talking about. More than half the photographs probably should not even be accepted as being worthy of being entered into the contest because they are of such poor quality. I probably won't learn this overtime the same as you haven't.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by gipper11:

Even the experts say to shoot in RAW and make at least global adjustments with Camera RAW or Lightroom. If you want things straight out of the camera other than composition, focus and exposure you just as well use the program mode. Some of you need to get out of the stone-age and use the tools available.

Experts???

Do tell, what may they be?

Guess what?

If you're a good photographer, you don't need a bunch of post-processing to create a good image.

Over time, you'll learn this.
10/27/2018 02:14:35 AM · #65
Originally posted by gipper11:

I don't believe I said a bunch of post-processing, I said some global adjustments. Most of the experts are not on this site, just take a look at the car detail contest going on right now and you may see what I am talking about. More than half the photographs probably should not even be accepted as being worthy of being entered into the contest because they are of such poor quality. I probably won't learn this overtime the same as you haven't.


Wow.

You're something special, aren't you?

Maybe someday us underachievers can be good like you.

Message edited by author 2018-10-27 02:15:15.
10/27/2018 02:32:31 AM · #66
Let's all stop getting personal -- it's starting to sound too much like the real world. :-(
10/27/2018 04:38:09 AM · #67
Actually I am special, you may be also.. But that really has nothing to do with using the tools used by most photographers. The days of the film camera is long gone. I realize they still exist but are rarely used nowadays. As far as reading the manual, and learning my camera, I already have thank you very much for the suggestion even though it was meant in a snobbish way goad2badad.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by gipper11:

I don't believe I said a bunch of post-processing, I said some global adjustments. Most of the experts are not on this site, just take a look at the car detail contest going on right now and you may see what I am talking about. More than half the photographs probably should not even be accepted as being worthy of being entered into the contest because they are of such poor quality. I probably won't learn this overtime the same as you haven't.


Wow.

You're something special, aren't you?

Maybe someday us underachievers can be good like you.
10/27/2018 07:40:07 AM · #68
Originally posted by gipper11:

Actually I am special, you may be also.. But that really has nothing to do with using the tools used by most photographers.

Um.... The tool we're talking about here is the camera. The purpose of the Minimal ruleset is ti limit the entry to that alone. Nobody is disputing that there are a myriad of tools available. This rather contentious discussion is about the frequency of these challenges.

WHY it has become so contentious escapes me entirely.

If you don't like the ruleset..... DON'T ENTER!

If you think it's a waste of your time.... DON'T ENTER!

If you don't want to look at a bunch of mediocre images...(Certainly not MY viewpoint when voting)...... DON'T ENTER!

If, for whatever reason the ruleset, the images offered up for voting, the angst of not being able to PP to your liking, or any other reason, thought, inclination doesn't make the chsllenge work for you, then..... DON'T ENTER!

When a challenge rolls out, you look at the ruleset, the description, and any other details like time limit (Speed challenges), extra rules, and anything else that is relevant to your decision to shoot for the challenge. There was just a foliage challenge. If you live in New Mexico, that's not a particularly relevant challenge topic. But you don't see people griping about that 'cause those folks are going to knock 'em out of the park when a "Desolation" challenge comes along.

So to reiterate..... If you don't want to enter a Minimal challenge..... DON'T ENTER!

But don't begrudge the people who like them.
Originally posted by gipper11:

The days of the film camera is long gone.

ARE long gone.
Originally posted by gipper11:

I realize they still exist but are rarely used nowadays.

For some reason, they're used a lot in schools for teaching. That makes zero sense to me. Darkroom skills are to me like having to learn algebra. When are you ever going to use that in real life???
Originally posted by gipper11:

As far as reading the manual, and learning my camera, I already have thank you very much for the suggestion even though it was meant in a snobbish way goad2badad.

Honestly? The snobbery/snarkiness that's coming out is in response to the ignorant comments being made by people in this thread who seem so vehemently opposed to this ruleset.

"I don't want to shoot or look at mediocre images."

"More than half the photographs probably should not even be accepted as being worthy of being entered into the contest because they are of such poor quality."

Just freakin' wow...

TBH, I don't think there is anyone that good that they can take those kind of stances and and get away with it. This *IS* supposed to be a place where people can come to learn and grow.

If I was an up and coming photog, which I still am as I find the Minimum ruleset my best platform for pushing me out of my comfort zone and pushing me to learn to be a better PHOTOGRAPHER, and I read this thread, I'd pretty much get the impression that there are some pretty arrogant people who aren't much interested in helping out. Maybe that would explain some of the exodus from this site.

I'm really surprised.
10/27/2018 07:43:00 AM · #69
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Let's all stop getting personal -- it's starting to sound too much like the real world. :-(

Yah, sorry for my part in that.

I'm really at a loss to understand the arrogant and derogatory commentary on this subject.

It's just a question as to whether you want more or less of these challenges.

It seems like some people feel violated by the ruleset's existence.

WTF???
10/28/2018 10:34:31 AM · #70
Originally posted by gipper11:

Even the experts say to shoot in RAW and make at least global adjustments with Camera RAW or Lightroom. If you want things straight out of the camera other than composition, focus and exposure you just as well use the program mode. Some of you need to get out of the stone-age and use the tools available.


Well said! There actually is no such thing as an unprocessed photo with a digital camera. The difference in JPEG and RAW is who/what does the processing. With a JPEG, the camera determines what is best for your photo; with RAW, the photographer determines it.
10/28/2018 10:49:09 AM · #71
Originally posted by gipper11:

Even the experts say to shoot in RAW and make at least global adjustments with Camera RAW or Lightroom. If you want things straight out of the camera other than composition, focus and exposure you just as well use the program mode. Some of you need to get out of the stone-age and use the tools available.


Originally posted by Elaine:

Well said! There actually is no such thing as an unprocessed photo with a digital camera. The difference in JPEG and RAW is who/what does the processing. With a JPEG, the camera determines what is best for your photo; with RAW, the photographer determines it.


So what's your point???

You don't like Minimal. We get it. You don't have to beat it to death.

So *DON'T* freakin' enter Minimal challenges.


10/28/2018 10:51:38 AM · #72
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by gipper11:

Even the experts say to shoot in RAW and make at least global adjustments with Camera RAW or Lightroom. If you want things straight out of the camera other than composition, focus and exposure you just as well use the program mode. Some of you need to get out of the stone-age and use the tools available.


Originally posted by Elaine:

Well said! There actually is no such thing as an unprocessed photo with a digital camera. The difference in JPEG and RAW is who/what does the processing. With a JPEG, the camera determines what is best for your photo; with RAW, the photographer determines it.


So what's your point???

You don't like Minimal. We get it. You don't have to beat it to death.

So *DON'T* freakin' enter Minimal challenges.


My point is that "straight out of the camera" is not unprocessed.
10/28/2018 11:01:00 AM · #73
Originally posted by Elaine:



Well said! There actually is no such thing as an unprocessed photo with a digital camera. The difference in JPEG and RAW is who/what does the processing. With a JPEG, the camera determines what is best for your photo; with RAW, the photographer determines it.


So maybe we should change the name of the rulesets. How about 1. what the camera creates . and 2. what the photographer creates?

(and yes, I'm kidding, but think about it for a minute)..

10/28/2018 11:28:21 AM · #74
Originally posted by Elaine:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Elaine:

Well said! There actually is no such thing as an unprocessed photo with a digital camera. The difference in JPEG and RAW is who/what does the processing. With a JPEG, the camera determines what is best for your photo; with RAW, the photographer determines it.

<snip>...So what's your point??? ...<snip>

My point is that "straight out of the camera" is not unprocessed.

Of course the camera makes processing choices, however, much of that process is driven by choices the photographer makes prior to pressing the shutter button. The obvious choices are related to exposure settings, but also direct input to jpg output such as sharpness, contrast, and saturation. Those last three can be set usually in a couple of ways depending on your brand of camera and they can have a big impact on jpg output. Just assign a memory button on your camera to use those choices and you're good to go.
10/28/2018 03:33:20 PM · #75
I am not a big fan of Minimal Editing challenges. If they were eliminated completely I would not miss them. However, it is obvious that there are some people in this community that love Minimal challenges and look forward to them. Given that, I think going from one Minimal every two months to one a month would be fine to me. Sparing six more challenges a year would still leave me lots of non-Minimal challenges to enter.
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