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11/19/2019 03:39:01 PM · #26
Originally posted by Elaine:

People don't seem to understand the photo is still processed, the photographer just has less control over the processing.

Rant over.

This is where your photographic knowledge and skill come in. You need to assess your subject, composition and lighting, and pre-visualize what processing (i.e. settings) will be needed to get the best possible output without further manipulation or experimentation.
11/19/2019 03:49:39 PM · #27
Originally posted by marnet:

Originally posted by Cory:

Get it right in camera.


I am trying to understand why would you need to do it these days when we have so many wonderful tools for post-processing and "pre-processing" in the camera! My thinking is:

1.(...)
2.(...)
3.(...)
4.(...)

Any other reasons?


I mean, aside from the fact that it drives you to become a better photographer?

Sure. Here are two reasons, one objective, one personal.

The objective reason is that when you're shooting for minimal DOF, especially for psudo Brennizer stuff you want to use every possible bit of the scene preserved, any cropping or rotation is a loss of important negative space / bokeh. And I for one have paid a lot of money for the ability to deliver the good on this.

Which brings me to the personal reason: I bought very expensive gear so I could avoid needing to do lots of post processing. Because I spent the time to learn to get it right in camera, and because I have killer gear, my need for editing has diminished greatly from where it was a couple years ago.

I don't have time to edit stuff, so it's important for me to just get it right in camera.

I view these challenges as an opportunity for me to show off my investments in skill and gear, as well as viewing it as a great learning opportunity/challenge for those who haven't put in the time and effort yet.
11/19/2019 04:31:03 PM · #28
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Elaine:

People don't seem to understand the photo is still processed, the photographer just has less control over the processing.

Rant over.

This is where your photographic knowledge and skill come in. You need to assess your subject, composition and lighting, and pre-visualize what processing (i.e. settings) will be needed to get the best possible output without further manipulation or experimentation.


Lets add a little more perspective to the Minimal Challenge:

In my camera if I shoot JPG I can alter everything.
Sharpness, Contrast,, Color Tints
Aspect Ratio: 6x4, 8x10, 1x1 etc etc
I can choose Vivid, Natural, Muted, Mono etc
Art filters: Pop Art, Soft Focus, Pale and Light, Grainy Film, Pin Hole, Diorama, Cross Process, Dramatic Tone, Sepia, Key Line, Watercolour, Vintage, Partial Color, Bleached Bypass,

So I am in effect doing photoshop in my camera at the time I shoot and its all allowed because I'm shooting a JPG

Some of the processes offered by my camera may not even be allowed in Standard Editing

Yet ... you all call this Minimal Editing.

Am I missing something here.

Message edited by author 2019-11-19 16:50:27.
11/19/2019 04:49:01 PM · #29
Cory, those of us who shoot in RAW can still get much right in the camera. I could see a rule set that only allows global editing, even limiting the amount of global edits. No cropping, rotating, etc. THAT would improve my photography, and I do think about framing, DOF, shutter speed, etc. before I click.

Maria - exactly. Learning how to manipulate inside my camera or phone does not make me a better photographer. I could edit a well-done RAW photo much faster than figuring out camera settings.

Maybe change the name of the rule set to In-Camera Editing. At least admit the photos are edited by the camera or phone.
11/19/2019 04:54:31 PM · #30
Originally posted by Elaine:

Cory, those of us who shoot in RAW can still get much right in the camera. I could see a rule set that only allows global editing, even limiting the amount of global edits. No cropping, rotating, etc. THAT would improve my photography, and I do think about framing, DOF, shutter speed, etc. before I click.

Maria - exactly. Learning how to manipulate inside my camera or phone does not make me a better photographer. I could edit a well-done RAW photo much faster than figuring out camera settings.

Maybe change the name of the rule set to In-Camera Editing. At least admit the photos are edited by the camera or phone.


A better name might be 'JPG from Camera" or something along those lines because minimal editing isn't really a true statement.
11/19/2019 05:05:53 PM · #31
Originally posted by RamblinR:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Elaine:

People don't seem to understand the photo is still processed, the photographer just has less control over the processing.

Rant over.

This is where your photographic knowledge and skill come in. You need to assess your subject, composition and lighting, and pre-visualize what processing (i.e. settings) will be needed to get the best possible output without further manipulation or experimentation.


Lets add a little more perspective to the Minimal Challenge:

In my camera if I shoot JPG I can alter everything.
Sharpness, Contrast,, Color Tints
Aspect Ratio: 6x4, 8x10, 1x1 etc etc
I can choose Vivid, Natural, Muted, Mono etc
Art filters: Pop Art, Soft Focus, Pale and Light, Grainy Film, Pin Hole, Diorama, Cross Process, Dramatic Tone, Sepia, Key Line, Watercolour, Vintage, Partial Color, Bleached Bypass,

So I am in effect doing photoshop in my camera at the time I shoot and its all allowed because I'm shooting a JPG

Some of the processes offered by my camera may not even be allowed in Standard Editing

Yet ... you all call this Minimal Editing.

Am I missing something here.

Nope -- you have it exactly -- get everything "right" before pushing the shutter. The contest is to see who can do this the "best" ...

The only reason it's a JPEG is because there is no way to display a RAW image SOOC -- it requires additional processing. Some cameras let you save in TIFF format -- that should be an acceptable substitute for the JPEG.

And there's no rule saying you can't shoot RAW+JPEG and process the heck out of the RAW image for your own purposes, just use the JPEG for your entry.
11/19/2019 05:31:30 PM · #32
Minimal editing tests your ability to make good decisions before pressing the shutter button. These are good skills to have. Making better decisions before you shoot often means less time is spent processing and better post processed results. Minimal may not by my favorite editing rule set, but I know it is for several in this community. That is good enough for me.

Minimal editing is essentially minimal post processing. You can do just about what ever you'd like in terms of the pre-processing.
11/19/2019 06:17:36 PM · #33
The entire point of this is to be as freaking hard as possible.

Maybe we should call this one "Expert" and remove the entire idea of naming challenges based on their editing difficulty.

I bet it'd be more popular if people thought of it as the hardest possible challenge type.

(ETA: before anyone jumps in to say that getting rid of the current classification system is stupid, don't worry, I agree. That was simply rhetorical, not a serious suggestion)

Message edited by author 2019-11-19 18:19:41.
11/19/2019 06:58:51 PM · #34
Originally posted by RamblinR:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Elaine:

People don't seem to understand the photo is still processed, the photographer just has less control over the processing.

Rant over.

This is where your photographic knowledge and skill come in. You need to assess your subject, composition and lighting, and pre-visualize what processing (i.e. settings) will be needed to get the best possible output without further manipulation or experimentation.


Lets add a little more perspective to the Minimal Challenge:

In my camera if I shoot JPG I can alter everything.
Sharpness, Contrast,, Color Tints
Aspect Ratio: 6x4, 8x10, 1x1 etc etc
I can choose Vivid, Natural, Muted, Mono etc
Art filters: Pop Art, Soft Focus, Pale and Light, Grainy Film, Pin Hole, Diorama, Cross Process, Dramatic Tone, Sepia, Key Line, Watercolour, Vintage, Partial Color, Bleached Bypass,

So I am in effect doing photoshop in my camera at the time I shoot and its all allowed because I'm shooting a JPG

Some of the processes offered by my camera may not even be allowed in Standard Editing

Yet ... you all call this Minimal Editing.

Am I missing something here.

I'd like to refer you back to my earlier post:

Originally posted by bear_music:

So many phonecams and p&s cams have modes and features that can't be emulated by higher-end, "pro" cameras except in post. We hope that people will follow the spirit of the thing and pretend they are shooting Kodachrome slides back in the day. If we get to a point where that's not happening, we'll probably have to get rid of the ruleset :-(


That's the long and short of it. These are meant to be old-school, throwback challenges AND they closely emulate the way MOST people capture and present their images, i.e. "shoot 'n post to social media of your choice" with NO time taken for post-processing. If we stray too far from that concept, if people feel this absolute compulsion to push the processing beyond the spirit and call it "legal", then that will be the end of the ruleset. We have not found a good way to write a rule that covers all possibilities of enhancement, so we just hope the shooters and the voters will "play fair"

Frankly, I don't understand why this is such a hot-button issue for so many folks; it's not as if we don't give y'all PLENTY of opportunities to strut your stuff, is it?
11/19/2019 08:04:40 PM · #35
Why is it so hard to understand what Mark and Cory and the General have said? It is all about BEFORE rather than AFTER. The more things you can get right BEFORE the less crap you have to deal with AFTER.
11/19/2019 10:20:28 PM · #36
Originally posted by tnun:

Why is it so hard to understand what Mark and Cory and the General have said? It is all about BEFORE rather than AFTER. The more things you can get right BEFORE the less crap you have to deal with AFTER.


seriously.
11/19/2019 11:56:19 PM · #37
Oh ... I don't have a problem with it at all.

I don't generally enter it because I shoot RAW

For those that shoot JPG and enjoy this challenge that's fabulous.
I wouldn't want it to be stopped and I'm not suggesting it shouldn't exist.
I do understand the concept of the challenge and it is something I try to do all the time when shooting.

Originally posted by bear_music:
So many phonecams and p&s cams have modes and features that can't be emulated by higher-end, "pro" cameras except in post. We hope that people will follow the spirit of the thing and pretend they are shooting Kodachrome slides back in the day. If we get to a point where that's not happening, we'll probably have to get rid of the ruleset :-(

I have read the MINIMAL Ruleset and it doesn't specify anywhere that you can't adjust everything in the camera before taking the shot so the above comment doesn't make sense. You would first have to amend the Ruleset to show that that is how the shot is to be taken. Advise that its a basic JPG shot and no Art Filters etc can be used. You can adjust sharpness and contrast settings only. Just saying.

11/20/2019 12:59:03 AM · #38
Originally posted by tnun:

Why is it so hard to understand what Mark and Cory and the General have said? It is all about BEFORE rather than AFTER. The more things you can get right BEFORE the less crap you have to deal with AFTER.

So shooting RAW and post-processing is CRAP, and a lot of DPCers are limited in their mental capabilities that it is SO HARD for them to understand?

It is SAD that the discourse very quickly degrades to aggression and bad language. So much hatred in this world these days, so sad :(
11/20/2019 07:17:38 AM · #39
Originally posted by marnet:

Originally posted by tnun:

Why is it so hard to understand what Mark and Cory and the General have said? It is all about BEFORE rather than AFTER. The more things you can get right BEFORE the less crap you have to deal with AFTER.

So shooting RAW and post-processing is CRAP, and a lot of DPCers are limited in their mental capabilities that it is SO HARD for them to understand?

It is SAD that the discourse very quickly degrades to aggression and bad language. So much hatred in this world these days, so sad :(

You don't see the irony with your post?
11/20/2019 08:35:33 AM · #40
"Take a picture in which something is missing."

So many possibilities! Looking forward to seeing some very creative takes on this challenge. :-)
11/20/2019 12:20:52 PM · #41
Originally posted by glad2badad:

"Take a picture in which something is missing."

So many possibilities! Looking forward to seeing some very creative takes on this challenge. :-)


maybe my brain.
11/20/2019 12:27:09 PM · #42
Originally posted by tnun:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

"Take a picture in which something is missing."

So many possibilities! Looking forward to seeing some very creative takes on this challenge. :-)

maybe my brain.

Ummm ... that's going to call for a VERY creative title!
11/20/2019 12:33:01 PM · #43
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by tnun:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

"Take a picture in which something is missing."

So many possibilities! Looking forward to seeing some very creative takes on this challenge. :-)

maybe my brain.

Ummm ... that's going to call for a VERY creative title!

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/22/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_2895.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/22/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_2895.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
11/20/2019 12:39:00 PM · #44
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by tnun:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

"Take a picture in which something is missing."

So many possibilities! Looking forward to seeing some very creative takes on this challenge. :-)

maybe my brain.

Ummm ... that's going to call for a VERY creative title!

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/22/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_2895.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/22/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_2895.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

LOL Show off.
11/20/2019 03:59:35 PM · #45
Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Originally posted by tnun:

Why is it so hard to understand what Mark and Cory and the General have said? It is all about BEFORE rather than AFTER. The more things you can get right BEFORE the less crap you have to deal with AFTER.


seriously.


So I spend a few hours figuring out how to get my camera to do what I could do in 5 minutes in Lightroom and that makes me a better photographer? We will just have to agree to disagree on this.
11/20/2019 06:33:39 PM · #46
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by tnun:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

"Take a picture in which something is missing."

So many possibilities! Looking forward to seeing some very creative takes on this challenge. :-)

maybe my brain.

Ummm ... that's going to call for a VERY creative title!

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/22/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_2895.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/22/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_2895.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

LOL Show off.


I was looking at the other monument as the subject. I guess I just have a dirty mind!
11/20/2019 06:35:07 PM · #47
Originally posted by Elaine:

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Originally posted by tnun:

Why is it so hard to understand what Mark and Cory and the General have said? It is all about BEFORE rather than AFTER. The more things you can get right BEFORE the less crap you have to deal with AFTER.

seriously.

So I spend a few hours figuring out how to get my camera to do what I could do in 5 minutes in Lightroom and that makes me a better photographer? We will just have to agree to disagree on this.

No, that's SO not the point. In photography, as in virtually any other enterprise you could name, the closer you nail a thing from the get-go, the better the final result will be. A properly-exposed image is the first step along the road to a superbly-finished image. This should be obvious to everyone.

A properly-framed image (that requires no cropping) will produce a better result than an image that requires extreme cropping. A little forethought at the framing and shooting stage will save a lot of work at the finishing stage. As with any sort of "crafty" process, be it photography or painting or cooking or woodworking or knitting, the better you understand (and care for) your tools and the better you appreciate the fundamental processes that go into a finished work, the more potential you have to really shine.

So my question is, "What's the payoff in RESISTING this?" What does any photographer have to GAIN by not internalizing the gestalt of his tool (the camera) and his interaction with it?
11/20/2019 06:37:22 PM · #48
I'm gonna move this back to the "photography" thread now that the suggested challenge has been implemented :-)
11/20/2019 06:45:50 PM · #49
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I'm gonna move this back to the "photography" thread now that the suggested challenge has been implemented :-)

... and that was the craziest "Challenge Suggestion" thread I've ever started! Totally picked the wrong forum section, but in the end it worked out. ;-)
11/21/2019 03:47:47 PM · #50
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Elaine:

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Originally posted by tnun:

Why is it so hard to understand what Mark and Cory and the General have said? It is all about BEFORE rather than AFTER. The more things you can get right BEFORE the less crap you have to deal with AFTER.

seriously.

So I spend a few hours figuring out how to get my camera to do what I could do in 5 minutes in Lightroom and that makes me a better photographer? We will just have to agree to disagree on this.

No, that's SO not the point. In photography, as in virtually any other enterprise you could name, the closer you nail a thing from the get-go, the better the final result will be. A properly-exposed image is the first step along the road to a superbly-finished image. This should be obvious to everyone.

A properly-framed image (that requires no cropping) will produce a better result than an image that requires extreme cropping. A little forethought at the framing and shooting stage will save a lot of work at the finishing stage. As with any sort of "crafty" process, be it photography or painting or cooking or woodworking or knitting, the better you understand (and care for) your tools and the better you appreciate the fundamental processes that go into a finished work, the more potential you have to really shine.

So my question is, "What's the payoff in RESISTING this?" What does any photographer have to GAIN by not internalizing the gestalt of his tool (the camera) and his interaction with it?


Absolutely think about exposure and framing before taking the shot. It's the "processing" part - setting sharpness, color, etc in the camera that would take the time to figure out. I can do global adjustments to a RAW photo in a few minutes. I would have to learn the jpeg functions to take a great shot for the Minimal ruleset. My resistance is to spending time learning something that I would never use except to enter Minimal challenges.
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