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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> That DQ in Art 2019
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01/24/2020 11:26:19 AM · #1
OK, so I need a bit of explanation on the DQ of this image by tamatama...

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/2000-2999/2968/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1244759.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/2000-2999/2968/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1244759.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

The explanation of the DQ is:

"You Must ... create your entry from 1 or more captures of a single scene (defined as a scene whose overall composition/framing does not change)." Double Exposures, wether created in-camera or in Photoshop, are not allowed in Standard Editing.

Now I fully understand the part in quotes about the overal composition/framing not changing. But I have issue with the explanation regarding double exposures in the follow-up as they are never mentioned specifically within the rules, in fact the rules state that they should be allowed as the standard editing rules state, You may... use any feature of your camera while photographing your entry. In-camera features applied after the capture are subject to normal editing rules.

What I'm looking for is a clarification, for I have actually used this feature previously (in 2017) and was not DQ'd. In my instance the camera did not move but I changed focal length during the burst. In their case the camera moved changing the framing/composition, so I get that - but then you added the thing about a double exposure. So if the camera is fixed on a tripod would double-exposures be legal or did I just skate? If mine should have been a DQ then I would ask that the rules be clarified somewhere to speak explicitly to double-exposures, either by excluding them when speaking of in-camera features or by adding something specific to "except double exposures" when mentioning "other techniques that use multiple, nearly simultaneous, images of a scene stitched together into a single image", as I certainly consider double exposures to be on of those "other techniques".

So no one has to go looking...

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Message edited by author 2020-01-24 11:32:52.
01/24/2020 12:24:08 PM · #2
Jake, try looking at it from the other direction: that "single scene" made its way into the rules as an attempt to clarify WHEN it was acceptable to use more than one exposure to create an image. Double-exposure (combining two differently-framed images) has never been allowed in DPC Standard editing or its precursors. Trying to explain this in excruciating detail runs contrary to our push to keep the rules as simple as possible. We think the rule is effective as it stands; we rarely have an issue with it.

Another example of when it shot an image down was when someone set up an HDR exposure/night shot of a lake and some sky etc, and a swan drifted into one of the exposures, so the shooter flashed the swan and left it in :-) But THAT was a changing scene, tripod be danged.

We WILL be looking at further revision of the rules when the new build goes live, so that would be a good time to bring this up and suggest rewordings.

As for your art image, yup you just skated :-) Nobody twigged to what you'd done but that was a scene whose overall framing/composition changed from exposure to exposure. If you feel bad about it in retrospect we'll be glad to DQ it :-)
01/24/2020 04:41:43 PM · #3
And I am looking at it from the other direction, which is why I posted this and which is why I suspected I had skated, even after Don (posthumous) commented suspecting it was a double (actually triple) exposure. If you didn't pick up on it after that I'll take the win (or wherever it was that it finished). ;)

I appreciate the work you all do. I'm just asking that when there are gaps in the rules that don't speak to specific functions which (almost) all cameras have that in the next rewrite you look to close them.
01/24/2020 06:09:47 PM · #4
For me the rule here is not clear concerning double exposures. You need to add "you may not create double exposures" because obviously it is allowed to use more than one picture under the standard rule set.
For you, who deal with this fine difference a lot and make up this rule for a photo site that is supposed to be fun, these rules are clear.
Somebody like me who does read the rules and thinks of following all of them and not post rather than do something 'forbidden' cannot understand easily this part of the rule. So you can stitch, do panoramas, and "you may combine the allowed images either in camera or in post-processing"
But you cannot just tilt the camera a bit in the second frame? It's not that I combined 2 totally different images - or were they supposed to be more different to be valid? Hmm ........
Please change it to make it more clear.
I will take the opportunity to thank the bosses here for all their hard work for the site. Please keep the site fun and simplify the RULES.
01/24/2020 06:37:04 PM · #5
I'm confused about what happen in the DQ'd image.

Did she take one shot, tilt the camera, and take another shot of the scene... then merge them?

Or did the camera do it "in house"?

Or what?

01/24/2020 06:43:18 PM · #6
Originally posted by Lydia:

I'm confused about what happen in the DQ'd image.

Did she take one shot, tilt the camera, and take another shot of the scene... then merge them?

Or did the camera do it "in house"?

It doesn't matter for the DQ -- if there was more than one shutter actuation and the result is not a "single continuous scene" it's not allowed, whether the combination occurred within the camera or later.

AFAIK the only legal way to make a "double exposure" under Standard is to open the shutter (long or bulb exposure) while covering/uncovering the lens with something opaque, or turning lights on and off like this....

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1202/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_874860.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1202/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_874860.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' (from Double Exposure challenge in 2010)

Message edited by author 2020-01-24 18:45:33.
01/24/2020 09:41:16 PM · #7
FWIW, I am completely impressed by the incredible creativity and outside the box thinking that goes along with these elaborate and unique images that don't pass muster.

Kudos to one and all that push the envelope. I am in awe....
01/24/2020 09:44:28 PM · #8
Originally posted by tamatama:

For me the rule here is not clear concerning double exposures. You need to add "you may not create double exposures" because obviously it is allowed to use more than one picture under the standard rule set.
For you, who deal with this fine difference a lot and make up this rule for a photo site that is supposed to be fun, these rules are clear.
Somebody like me who does read the rules and thinks of following all of them and not post rather than do something 'forbidden' cannot understand easily this part of the rule. So you can stitch, do panoramas, and "you may combine the allowed images either in camera or in post-processing"
But you cannot just tilt the camera a bit in the second frame? It's not that I combined 2 totally different images - or were they supposed to be more different to be valid? Hmm ........
Please change it to make it more clear.
I will take the opportunity to thank the bosses here for all their hard work for the site. Please keep the site fun and simplify the RULES.

The problem with "making it more clear" is that when we write a rule that says SPECIFICALLY you may not do "X" people start to assume that everything "not X" must be legal. So we try to write a rule that's more inclusive than exclusive. And we end up with the following:

"You Must ... create your entry from 1 or more captures of a single scene (defined as a scene whose overall composition/framing does not change)."

And there you have it: you can combine images that "stack" without deviation (HDR and Focus Stacking) and you can combine images in a panoramic manner to encompass a wider scene, but you can't combine more than one "view" of a scene into a single image.
01/25/2020 01:42:30 PM · #9
Bear's job is tough, sorting out all these complicated details. I recall back when things were pretty cut and dried in here. Now, everyone wants an explanation. DPCers are a lot more outspoken when it comes to challenge rules, etc. DPC has become more of a learning platform.. interesting. ;-)
01/25/2020 07:24:43 PM · #10
It's not MY job per se, it's SC's job. I seem to do most of the talking, but SC was fully invested in the decision.
01/25/2020 07:34:48 PM · #11
You're like the legal counsel for DPC. ;-)
01/26/2020 03:54:58 PM · #12
Originally posted by Bear_Music:


The problem with "making it more clear" is that when we write a rule that says SPECIFICALLY you may not do "X" people start to assume that everything "not X" must be legal.


I agree that explicitly stating that a technique is not allowed might lead folks to believe that executing that technique as a single image with a single actuation would also not be allowed. But that doesn't mean that further clarification isn't necessary. Perhaps it's sufficient to say in the rule that says you may use any in-camera function that you also state "provided it does not violate other Standard editing rules"? People can spend significant time and energy creating images for this place, so when I see an image that technically violates the spirit of one rule while clearly complying with another I feel for that person. If this was the first time I'd seen something like this I would say, "Well, OK, lesson learned", but it's been happening for the entire tenure of my time here. No one wants to turn the rules into an Apple User Acceptance Agreement, but I do believe that when you get to a rewrite that perhaps we can have a period of public comment where we can try and plug some of the holes?
01/26/2020 06:43:09 PM · #13
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:


The problem with "making it more clear" is that when we write a rule that says SPECIFICALLY you may not do "X" people start to assume that everything "not X" must be legal.


I agree that explicitly stating that a technique is not allowed might lead folks to believe that executing that technique as a single image with a single actuation would also not be allowed. But that doesn't mean that further clarification isn't necessary. Perhaps it's sufficient to say in the rule that says you may use any in-camera function that you also state "provided it does not violate other Standard editing rules"? People can spend significant time and energy creating images for this place, so when I see an image that technically violates the spirit of one rule while clearly complying with another I feel for that person. If this was the first time I'd seen something like this I would say, "Well, OK, lesson learned", but it's been happening for the entire tenure of my time here. No one wants to turn the rules into an Apple User Acceptance Agreement, but I do believe that when you get to a rewrite that perhaps we can have a period of public comment where we can try and plug some of the holes?

Originally posted by Standard Rules:

You may...

*
combine the allowed captures either in-camera or in post-processing.
*
use any feature of your camera while photographing your entry. In-camera features applied after the capture are subject to normal editing rules.

01/26/2020 08:48:21 PM · #14
Originally posted by digifotojo:

Bear's job is tough, sorting out all these complicated details. I recall back when things were pretty cut and dried in here. Now, everyone wants an explanation. DPCers are a lot more outspoken when it comes to challenge rules, etc. DPC has become more of a learning platform.. interesting. ;-)

I'm not so sure. I remember some VERY "energetic" forum threads, with a lot of back and forth of deciphering the "rules". The past couple of years have been substantially more mellow and hardly any contentious banter over how the rules are read. The updated "Standard" editing rules are much more flexible than they were "back in the day".
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