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03/04/2003 10:10:17 AM · #1
Well, both of my entries this week have been disqualified. The program I use has a transparent, faded border option. If you look closely at the submission, you can actually see the lines of the border, showing it was not fading that I did. I read that borders were legal, so I put them on. Evidently, this is done differently in Photoshop 7, and is illegal. Anyway, I have gotten tons and tons of comments saying it's illegal, so I am aware of that now, and thanks for the votes anyway! It's a bummer because they were great shots without borders too!

So, what kinds of borders are okay? Just simple lines? The program I use has all the borders together, and there are about 200 of them. I know to stay away from anything that looks transparent now!
03/04/2003 10:14:13 AM · #2
they haven't been disqualified yet...
03/04/2003 10:16:20 AM · #3
I don't know that they will be disqualified either... hang in there for a while :)
03/04/2003 11:24:00 AM · #4
Hi John - they don't have access to the program I used, and my originals don't have the borders (obviously). They said they would review it, but made it clear that fading was not allowed. Thanks for the encouragement though! Maybe I spoke too soon??? What kinds of borders ARE legal? Like I said, I have a ton of them, but they are all grouped together, so I'd like to be safe.
03/04/2003 11:47:05 AM · #5
Originally posted by tcherring:

Hi John - they don't have access to the program I used, and my originals don't have the borders (obviously). They said they would review it, but made it clear that fading was not allowed. Thanks for the encouragement though! Maybe I spoke too soon??? What kinds of borders ARE legal? Like I said, I have a ton of them, but they are all grouped together, so I'd like to be safe.


i don't know the answer to that question myself. There is nothing in the rules that says u can't do a fade border. I believe that when the rule was written, the intention was adding border around the edges of the photo rather than applying border effects to the photo itself. The rule is not very clear.

To be on the safe side, I would either not use borders or use borders around the outer edges of the photo...

03/04/2003 11:51:00 AM · #6
The rule is:

Borders: Your submission may include a border, but the border may not contain any text, clip art, photographs, or other artwork.


In my opinion, your photos do not break any rule here. Your border does not contain text, clipart, photographs, or other artwork.

The main issue here is that you have, in fact, applied a 'filter' border that has modified your photograph. The issue here is that the filter that you applied did not modify the entire photo... only the outer portions of it. The rules that apply to the use of filters do specify that the modification must be applied to the entire image... does that make sense?

I know it's a grey area and you are new here. I would hang tite until some decision is made. I would also probably suggest using simple outline borders until this rule is clarified...

John Setzler

03/04/2003 03:05:33 PM · #7
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to not be able to use faded borders or even premade clip art borders as long as they don't contain artwork. They are just borders. If you have a program that easily creates nice borders then I see no problems with it. I wa going to include a thin 1 or 2 pixel line inside the edges several pixels but I wasn't sure if that was still considered a border. So I didn't.

T

Message edited by author 2003-03-04 15:12:23.
03/04/2003 03:22:57 PM · #8
Thanks for the clarification, John. I'm not upset about it at all - I am obviously still learning, and like I said, I don't take offense easily. What you said made sense, and if they do disqualify me, I will understand. Thanks for looking into it for me, I appreciate it!!
03/04/2003 03:31:48 PM · #9
The ironic thing is that the border didn't really change the image, LOL! It would have been just as good without it. Oh well, live and learn, right??? Thanks again!
03/04/2003 05:05:16 PM · #10
I had considered borders before, myself, but am just leaving them out. The thing is, Photoshop Elements (and I imagine 7, etc.), you can add borders at the touch of the button. Where do those stand? They can be pretty fancy, but many are "area" selective and does not pertain to the whole pic, and to me, not allowed. Yes, borders can really punch up a photo (I think I am aware of which photo is tcherring's is--very nice!), and here I think would make a difference in a lot of votes. But, I would like my photographs to be evaluated as they look on their own and I can package them later in nice frames/borders, etc. So, I guess I would just say..."why even have or allow borders?"
03/04/2003 05:33:27 PM · #11
There is no problem with a border constructed within the editing program and as part of the image. I think the main problem with the ones under discussion (I haven't seen them) is that they apply a filter to a specified area. It is not so much a question of whether the final border is "legal", but whether it was constructed using DPC-legal techniques.

Applying a gradient will probably violate one of the other editing rules. Placing a border from another program or file seems to violate the "no added art" provisions.

I use borders almost all the time, but I've been trying to stick to simple 1 or 2 color narrow solids. I think the most extreme I've gotten at DPC is one where I applied a Gaussian Blur.
03/04/2003 05:48:12 PM · #12
ok ok. I think I understand what the problem is and the easy solution. The reason your borders, if I'm understanding them right, are suspect, is that they faded into the image. This would be the same as if you had applied a gradient masking filter to the image for a vignetting effect. The simple solution is not to use a feathered border. That is what feathering does. You can easily change the number of feathered pixels down to 0 (I think it is normally set at 7 or something for some reason) I think this has happened to a lot of people before and I agree that is is pretty silly. I think we should be able to spot edit sometimes anyway. Hope you make it through the disqualification process!
03/04/2003 05:57:37 PM · #13
tcherring, sorry to hear about the DQ, i hope it works out for you. I thought your borders were beautiful and would like to know what program you used to achieve it. Can i get a border like that using photoshop? if so how?
03/04/2003 06:22:49 PM · #14
Originally posted by shutterfly:

tcherring, sorry to hear about the DQ, i hope it works out for you. I thought your borders were beautiful and would like to know what program you used to achieve it. Can i get a border like that using photoshop? if so how?


Ditto.
03/04/2003 07:17:58 PM · #15
Hi everyone! First of all, thanks for the kind words... it's not a big deal, I'm still learning how this whole process works. And hey! It's not like the pictures have scored a perfect 10 anyway!!!

As for the program I used, it's a low-end program that I am crazy about. I have PhotoShop as well, but the one I use all the time is Nova Photo Explosion Deluxe. I swear it's the coolest program out there. It runs for about $50, and I call it the "Photo Shop for Dummies". Very easy to use - even my 8 year old has done some cool things with it. Their frames are all-inclusive, so I selected the faded border thinking I was following the rules. It's okay...I think I will just avoid borders from now on!!

Anyway, thanks again for all the clarification!!
03/04/2003 08:10:06 PM · #16
Thanks for the info tc! and hey don't give up on those borders, they can really make a photo look beautiful, like you did.
03/04/2003 08:16:39 PM · #17
For the people wondering if you can do it in Photoshop, trying searching for Photoshop actions. There are quite a few border actions that you can download.
03/04/2003 08:18:28 PM · #18
tcherring, WELCOME to dpc
Your photos are both wonderful and we will learn a lot from YOU.
If they do get dq'd maybe you will post them somewhere else for us to enjoy. Or maybe enter them in POTD.
03/04/2003 08:53:36 PM · #19
Drew - Langdon...It has been said before, perhaps many times, why not stop this eternal problem with BORDERS - prohibit/eliminate borders. For god's sake, who needs borders if your photograph stands by itself!!
03/04/2003 10:11:39 PM · #20
Such a shame! I voted on both your pictures and they are both beautiful! Better luck next time!
03/05/2003 06:35:09 PM · #21
As far as I can tell your photos are still here (I hope I'm right). I can't see any reason why they should be disqualified, and I certainly don't agree with JEM that all borders should be banned. The people who really go over the top with borders are doing their photos more harm than good anyway, and if we tell them that in the comments they are learning something from it. The main objective here surely is to learn things we can use in the real world, so why should there be so much emphasis on disqualifying pictures anyway?
03/05/2003 08:07:01 PM · #22
Originally posted by tcherring:

Well, both of my entries this week have been disqualified. The program I use has a transparent, faded border option. If you look closely at the submission, you can actually see the lines of the border, showing it was not fading that I did. I read that borders were legal, so I put them on. Evidently, this is done differently in Photoshop 7, and is illegal. Anyway, I have gotten tons and tons of comments saying it's illegal, so I am aware of that now, and thanks for the votes anyway! It's a bummer because they were great shots without borders too!

I wonder if you are benefiting from any sympathy voting since some DPCers seem to know which images are your submissions and the challenges are not yet closed?
So, what kinds of borders are okay? Just simple lines? The program I use has all the borders together, and there are about 200 of them. I know to stay away from anything that looks transparent now!
03/05/2003 08:31:54 PM · #23
If your shot is the shot I think it is then I think it should be disqualified, the border definatley changes the photo and gives it a mood that would not have been achieved nearly as well without it. It is not fair to the rest of us. I understand that you did not know the rules and I feel sympathy for you, but I do not think it is fair since it does affect the image in a huge way.
03/05/2003 08:36:24 PM · #24
I think the reason there is this rule about borders is that there has to be a line drawn somewhere, if you'll excuse the pun. Obviously, the intention is to promote photography over digital manipulation of photos: so at some point there has to be a rule that says 'this is as far as you can go'.

If the shot in question is the one I think it is (and I'm pretty certain it is) then I personally had no abjections, and rated it pretty highly; however, it is definitely against the rules as they stand ... except if you manged to apply some kind of parabolic transparency effect to the whole picture you could probably come up with a similar effect.

And I think that border *does* have a strong impact on the shot.

Also, borders can really make or break a shot. Most of the photos we view here are seen against a grey background: a small border allows you to add your own background, to an extent. A black border can lighten the impression of a dark photo, and a white the reverse ...

There. What a lot of points. Still like your shot though, tcherrring.

Ed

//www.edclarke.org.uk
03/06/2003 04:03:49 AM · #25
Originally posted by JEM:

Drew - Langdon...It has been said before, perhaps many times, why not stop this eternal problem with BORDERS - prohibit/eliminate borders. For god's sake, who needs borders if your photograph stands by itself!!


1. It seems a majority of site users want borders.
2. Prohibiting borders forces us to disqualify photographs where cropping errors result in the photographer leaving an accidental border along one margin -- it happened nearly every week.

-Terry
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