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03/07/2006 05:02:56 AM · #226
Originally posted by Cooz:

Yeah, but EVERYONE is squeezing detail into 640...I think your image is great at both resolutions...and, yeah, the higher resolution one looks better, but EVERYONE is working within the same boundries and if your image is a 10th place entry at 640, against 640 images, it would be a 10th place entry at 800...

I think that's due to the way people vote here, and that is with their heart first and eye second...but that isn't going to change, so changing the resolution won't change someone's voting...


This is not entirely accurate, as others have since mentioned, but let me throw my 2-cent's worth in here; we wide-angle landscape photographers are at an extreme disadvantage in DPC; the details are so small in things like foliage and water that we cannot reproduce them at 640 pixels and the images look "soft" and imprecise; so we are forced to veritable contortions of USM to try to emulate sharpness, and THEN those who use ultra-contrasty modern flat-panel screens ding us with "oversharpening" comments. My 10mm landscape images show MUCH better at 800 pixels than at 640 pixels, while my set-up shots, as a rule, look about as good either way.

The 640-pixel limit, IMO, is one of the factors that contributes to the oft-mentioned DPC "style" of simple, smooth, less-detailed polycromatic images; these are what show best in the smaller format.

So going larger, hopefully, would encourage better rating of truly fine images that often don't even make it INTO our challenges because they can't be properly downsized at 640.

R.
03/07/2006 05:38:21 AM · #227
This was probably already mentioned in this thread, but I'll throw it out there again...

How about a trial 800x800 period (2 weeks / 6 challenges?) using challenge topics that specifically target the issues people have brought up (i.e. landscapes) as well as a free study of sorts, then do another poll and also analyze the challenge results for obvious anomalies (i.e. fewer number of votes because of dial-up speed issues) and then determine whether to make it permanent or not.

It seems to have worked for the Exclusive Open Challenges.
03/07/2006 05:52:35 AM · #228
I do not favor this proposal:

1-Standard screen of 1024x768 is to small.
As it is now even after F11 maximizing I still must scroll to view, vote and comment on images, particularly for portrait orientation. Even with screen redesign this problem will only be made worse, not better. 800 sized images can already be shown and shared outside challenges yet we see very little of that happening now. 640 pixels is still a standard display size at most web sites like PBase and SmugMug where there are no limiting size restrictions. 1024 X 768 screen size is just to small to support more.

2-640 levels the playing field for new photographers.
800 pixel size favors photographers with better equipment and PP skills. Most new members with limited post processing skills and poorer camera equipment will be handicaped to the point of frustration at the larger pixel size and be discouraged from participating.

3-Larger sizes encourages image theft.

This is one of those ideas that sounds good at first glance, but the current 640 is plenty good enough and a defacto standard for web images on today's screens.

Skilled photographers with good post processing skills already build and save their images for printing at larger sizes. They have the option of sharing them at larger sizes in different venues but generally do not. Why? In the "real world" of the web there still are precious few places that display pictures larger than 640 pixels now. Most professional photographer web sites today display their galleries at much less than 640 pixels.

Message edited by author 2006-03-07 06:06:07.
03/07/2006 06:07:34 AM · #229
I'm not necessarily for the change either but I do like to play devil's advocate and I respectfully disagree with this idea of a "level playing field" - it never has been, never will be and never can be a level playing field. We have 5 year old's "competing" with toy cameras, we have dial-up users, P&S, L-Lenses, Pro photographers, teenagers, Photoshop, PSP, etc. The variables on all aspects are all over the map. It seems ridiculous to say things should not be allowed because it might give some an advantage over others - this is inherent and unavoidable.

ok I'm done.

...oh, except that I also strongly disagree with "Larger sizes encourages image theft."

For the record though, I voted for "No Change" mostly because when I am uploading my challenge entry with less than ten seconds to the deadline, those extra pixels could kill my chances of even being in a challenge! ;-)

Message edited by author 2006-03-07 06:07:51.
03/07/2006 06:15:34 AM · #230
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

For the record though, I voted for "No Change" mostly because when I am uploading my challenge entry with less than ten seconds to the deadline, those extra pixels could kill my chances of even being in a challenge! ;-)

Very funny because procrastination is sooooooo... well... human. LOL!
03/07/2006 07:08:21 AM · #231
Originally posted by stdavidson:

I do not favor this proposal:

1-Standard screen of 1024x768 is to small.

2-640 levels the playing field for new photographers.

3-Larger sizes encourages image theft.


1-Standard screen of 1024x768 is i believe not any more a "standard" just because people dealing with photography and image manipulation programs are in need for bigger resolution and i think that over 85% of DPC members are using 1280x1024 (or even 1400×1050 or 1600x1200) considering they are using 17'' monitors

2-Disagree, even a new photog would like to see more details on hers/his photo and opportunity to adjust minor details in advanced editing challenges, so this is no deal for me :-)

3-again disagree ... even with 800x800 thief can do nothing except print to 15x10cm with questionable quality since it varies from maker to maker

peace,
goran

edit:typo

Message edited by author 2006-03-07 07:08:57.
03/07/2006 07:15:12 AM · #232
not to add insult to injury but with all the talk about switching to resolution to 800 etc. wouldn't it be just as important to see the average size monitor used by people??? A photo thats 640 tall already takes up the majority of the screen and you have to keep scrolling when commenting.
03/07/2006 07:22:22 AM · #233
Originally posted by gooc:

1-Standard screen of 1024x768 is i believe not any more a "standard" just because people dealing with photography and image manipulation programs are in need for bigger resolution and i think that over 85% of DPC members are using 1280x1024 (or even 1400×1050 or 1600x1200) considering they are using 17'' monitors

well we'll find out if you're right on the 17th. I use a large monitor/resolution at home for working on my pics, but I don't vote at home cause I'm normally working on pictures or shooting pictures. So I do my voting at work on a 1024x768.
03/07/2006 07:36:58 AM · #234
I would support more detail.

My support for 800px is conditional on the following suggestions.

Small DPC Header on 800px voting pages: the ribbon and dpchallenge logo should be smaller and fit within the taskbar area. This would give people an extra 30 or so pixels at the top of the screen (which is commonly the problematic dimension).

plus

Recommendation to "hit F11" somewhere in the voting instructions, which minimises explorer or firefox task bars etc (another 60 or so pixels in many people's case).

It is at the very least worth an experiment!

Message edited by author 2006-03-07 07:39:24.
03/07/2006 07:37:05 AM · #235
I would be extra concerned about theft and I also don't like scrolling around to see images...or at least do as little scrolling as possible.
Knowing myself, if voting became more of a pain I would do a lot less of it.

I will keep my images at 640 regardless or extend my borders and if I can't compete at that size I might bow out.

People continually warn me about theft and are surprised that I don't seem to care much about it but I'm beginning to change my thinking.

Message edited by author 2006-03-07 08:07:18.
03/07/2006 08:17:40 AM · #236
Oh my, it's been put to a vote on the home page. I don't know what I want. Maybe I should raffle off my vote.

:-O
03/07/2006 08:24:52 AM · #237
I sometimes have a hard time keeping an image to 640 pixels AND the 150kb size. This is due to the crops I may have to do on the photo. Therefore, belonging to another site that allows for larger images where I have no problems like this, I am for the 700 x 700 here.

I get a lot of comments at times that my images are too small, however, they are only so in meeting the requirements here in regards to 150kb and pixel size allowed. I don't know why this occurs. I have tried saving in several modes and nothing seems to work. So it would be personally easier for me at the 700 x 700.

Rose
03/07/2006 08:32:59 AM · #238
As far as theft is concerned, simple solution is 800 only available to paying members. Unless we can't even trust ourselves...

BTW when you count up the votes if 800x800 doesn't win, they should all be counted for 800x700. If 800x700 doesn't win either, both 800x800 and 800x700 should be counted for 700x700 etc etc. You get the idea.
03/07/2006 09:11:33 AM · #239
Originally posted by jadin:

As far as theft is concerned, simple solution is 800 only available to paying members. Unless we can't even trust ourselves...


I'm not sure how you see that? Theft isn't only an internal issue but external as well. Anyone on the planet can view our images, save or print them. I also assume there might be a majority here that could care less either way, while other might feel totally compromised. (remember Gibun, aka Doc Ventor)

I hope people stay considerate of all the angles when voting.

Message edited by author 2006-03-07 09:14:45.
03/07/2006 09:14:52 AM · #240
Originally posted by Rose8699:

I get a lot of comments at times that my images are too small


Where??? I looked and didn't see any.
03/07/2006 09:19:45 AM · #241
Originally posted by pawdrix:

I would be extra concerned about theft and I also don't like scrolling around to see images...or at least do as little scrolling as possible.
Knowing myself, if voting became more of a pain I would do a lot less of it.

I will keep my images at 640 regardless or extend my borders and if I can't compete at that size I might bow out.

People continually warn me about theft and are surprised that I don't seem to care much about it but I'm beginning to change my thinking.

I'm thinking pretty much the same way you are on this:
1) The scrolling and voting issue.
2) Keep my images to 640 regardless.
3) Worried about theft issue. (there are microstock sites out there already that accept 600px images)


03/07/2006 09:32:16 AM · #242
I'm for no change.
I don't like scrolling to vote.
I'm also dial-up (no other options in my area). Most times I'm signed in at 38 which is up from 21 most of the winter ? .
It takes me forever to vote and lately I've only been hitting 25 percent or so.
As for theft, I recently admired a craftsman's work at the local flea-market and asked if he took the photos. His response was. "I found them on the web." When I asked about copyright he replied. "What are the odds that anyone will ever see their work here. If they do, I'll just remove it from my display."
I was pretty shocked that he was so bold!
His lack of integrity and respect for the photographer saddened me.
03/07/2006 09:34:35 AM · #243
Originally posted by pawdrix:

Originally posted by jadin:

As far as theft is concerned, simple solution is 800 only available to paying members. Unless we can't even trust ourselves...


I'm not sure how you see that? Theft isn't only an internal issue but external as well. Anyone on the planet can view our images, save or print them. I also assume there might be a majority here that could care less either way, while other might feel totally compromised. (remember Gibun, aka Doc Ventor)

I hope people stay considerate of all the angles when voting.


How is it an external issue if only paying members can view the images at the larger size?
03/07/2006 09:36:05 AM · #244
I've voted against changing the size limit beyond 640 in the poll. I wouldn't mind a limit of 800 wide if height is still held to 640. I don't want to scroll to see an entire image when voting. I don't want to have to buy a new monitor to stay in the game and be competitive here at dpc. I would be adamantly against any sort of auto-resizing, no matter how well it worked, because I feel that we should all be viewing the exact same images when voting.

I have read this entire thread, and others before it, and still don't find any real need to make this change, just a desire on the part of a vocal few. And, to me, the arguments in favor just don't outweigh the arguments against it. They don't even come very close. Statements like "It's 2006" or "let's come out of the dark ages" are not really anything more than slogans, not convincing reasons.

I don't think that the fact that the vocal few keep bringing this idea up ad nauseum, and attracting a predictable internet mob-mentality following, is sufficient reason to make this change.

BTW, anyone who doesn't understand that an increase in image size will result in an increase in image theft needs to rethink the issue and face reality. dpc is already a favorite hunting ground for those who like to take another person's work for whatever reason. There will be more of that. And that will lead to some of our better photographers leaving. I'm talking about those who are already selling there work (be it dreamstime, Alamy, or DPCPrints) and understand the potential for financial loss when images are stolen. They will not want to put their work up for free at the increased size, and they understand that they won't be able to compete if they don't, so they are out of here. Please don't act surprised when it happens.
03/07/2006 09:38:15 AM · #245
Originally posted by jadin:

Originally posted by pawdrix:

Originally posted by jadin:

As far as theft is concerned, simple solution is 800 only available to paying members. Unless we can't even trust ourselves...


I'm not sure how you see that? Theft isn't only an internal issue but external as well. Anyone on the planet can view our images, save or print them. I also assume there might be a majority here that could care less either way, while other might feel totally compromised. (remember Gibun, aka Doc Ventor)

I hope people stay considerate of all the angles when voting.


How is it an external issue if only paying members can view the images at the larger size?

I wouldn't want only paid members to look at my pictures, that would mean less comments.
03/07/2006 09:52:07 AM · #246
I'm all for 800x800.

I participate at another site that asks for 800px on the long edge. So when I have a decent shot that I've worked up for DPC, I will resize it for DigitalImageCafe. When I do this, I feel that the larger image resolution gives more impact.

I also feel that the larger resolution will help some of us to improve. You can get away with some imperfections, such as soft focus, at 640 that would be harder to hide at 800. Also, it would make cropping more important in-camera than in post processing. So, with the larger size, we would need to concentrate on the in-camera product more rather than relying on post-processing.

There is an asterisk to what I'm saying ... I work on a Gateway 21" with a 1680x1050 resolution. I've got a feeling that I'm in a minority working at that high resolution.
03/07/2006 09:55:19 AM · #247
Originally posted by jadin:

Originally posted by bluenova:

How is it an external issue if only paying members can view the images at the larger size?

I wouldn't want only paid members to look at my pictures, that would mean less comments.


Am I not explaining this clear enough? Paying members would view your images at 800x(700/800). Everyone else would still be able to view them at 640x640.

Message edited by author 2006-03-07 09:56:23.
03/07/2006 10:00:23 AM · #248
Originally posted by jadin:

Originally posted by jadin:

Originally posted by bluenova:

How is it an external issue if only paying members can view the images at the larger size?

I wouldn't want only paid members to look at my pictures, that would mean less comments.


Am I not explaining this clear enough? Paying members would view your images at 800x(700/800). Everyone else would still be able to view them at 640x640.

Ah I see, sorry. I think I would still prefer an option on the profile (perhaps only for paid members) to be able to view 640 or 800.
03/07/2006 10:18:31 AM · #249
Originally posted by bluenova:

Originally posted by jadin:

Am I not explaining this clear enough? Paying members would view your images at 800x(700/800). Everyone else would still be able to view them at 640x640.

Ah I see, sorry. I think I would still prefer an option on the profile (perhaps only for paid members) to be able to view 640 or 800.


Exactly what I want!
03/07/2006 10:43:48 AM · #250
Originally posted by bluenova:

Originally posted by jadin:

Originally posted by jadin:

Originally posted by bluenova:

How is it an external issue if only paying members can view the images at the larger size?

I wouldn't want only paid members to look at my pictures, that would mean less comments.


Am I not explaining this clear enough? Paying members would view your images at 800x(700/800). Everyone else would still be able to view them at 640x640.

Ah I see, sorry. I think I would still prefer an option on the profile (perhaps only for paid members) to be able to view 640 or 800.

Wouldn't that require automated/computed resizing of images? If yes, it's definitely a NO from me. ;^)
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