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07/09/2005 10:51:35 AM · #1
fate? free will? what do you think and why?
07/09/2005 11:00:18 AM · #2
Hmm...this early in the morning? Yikes! ;)

Fate and free will are two entirely different animals IMHO. One can exercise her own free will to do whatever she may, but Fate will always intervene if Fate wishes to do so. I tend to rely a lot on Karma to keep from tempting Fate too often.

Man, I think I need some more coffee. :)
07/09/2005 11:01:53 AM · #3
You may not have faith in fate, my friend. But fate has faith in you.
07/09/2005 11:07:16 AM · #4
By exercising our free will we make our own fate.

At work we once had some sort of psychologist run an interesting test. he had a scale from one to 10. 1 was along the lines of "everything is pre-determined and as an individual you have little control over most things" 10 was something like "as an individual you can control or significantly influence almost everything that happens to you and around you" The higher achievers in the group tended to score towards the 8 and 9; the lower achievers towards the 2-3.

I guess my lesson from that was the more you believe in fate, the more you are its victim. Our fate is simply the result of our own choices (OK - maybe only 90% of the time).
07/09/2005 11:12:29 AM · #5
Originally posted by laurielblack:

I tend to rely a lot on Karma to keep from tempting Fate too often.



:) I try to tempt fate as little as possible. :)
07/09/2005 11:15:00 AM · #6
" There is no chance, no destiny, no fate, that can hinder or control the firm resolve of a determined soul."

-Ella Wheeler Wilcox
07/09/2005 11:29:20 AM · #7
Originally posted by TheStick:

You may not have faith in fate, my friend. But fate has faith in you.

Somebody once asked Niels Bohr why he had a horseshoe hanging above the front door of his house.

"Surely you, a world famous physicist, can't really believe that hanging a horseshoe above your door brings you luck?".

"Of course not," Bohr replied, "but I have been reliably informed that it will bring me luck whether I believe in it or not."

--Neils Bohr (1885 - 1962)
07/09/2005 11:49:27 AM · #8
These are discussions that are best started by the young inquiring mind as they sit late at late in a hangout restaurant while the clocks ticks away and meets sunrise.

Fate has a friendlier door. Suppose you step outside your house and step on an insect. The question is: where else could that insect be at that very moment if not underneath your feet. Fate opens up the destiny vault and here you have adherents that feel that providence plays the bigger role in the equation. That insect, could have decided to enjoy life in a more productive manner but alas, here came that big foot with the screeching of the screen door and all plans were stamped out with one normal gesture: a step. Many of our dreams have been thus shattered beyond our reparation.

Free will states that we have the power to make choices. Many will question if the choices we make are predetermined. It is a highly interactive world and what we plan is dependent on so many variables.
So while fate and freewill are separate no one knows the exact chemistry of their interaction.

How many failures occur as we plan and determine our life. Is it not amazing how one single incident has the power to change and rearrange our dreams and desires.

Some say that character is destiny and this has some truth, but the truth is that there are no absolute thruth in a world that turns with so many variables. A good character determines many of one's actions but we all have seen man of good character lose the fight in some cases.

A wonderful discussion but best left for the later hours where the mind can muse and fancy that it has a grasp on the forces that shape our existence.

Message edited by author 2005-07-09 11:50:48.
07/09/2005 11:53:22 AM · #9
oh boy... not up for this debate this early.
07/09/2005 01:03:01 PM · #10
Originally posted by kyebosh:

oh boy... not up for this debate this early.

Might I suggest to all commenting but not debating, or this thread will end in the You-Know-What section instead of General Discussion where it may currently continue to reside.
07/09/2005 01:15:36 PM · #11
What a paradox! I don't want to get into this deep discussion so I will post from an articale...while I go take pictures.. :)

Einstein himself believe that "God does not play dice with the universe," and his theories support the idea of a specific path and a specific purpose for every particle--that is, Fate.

Quantum Mechanics tends to disagree, however. It introduces the idea of uncertainty into the equations of existence and through Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, it propones the idea a multitude of paths is possible for each particle, that virtual particles themselves truly are random occurrences, that Free Will is ours.

07/09/2005 01:23:09 PM · #12
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by kyebosh:

oh boy... not up for this debate this early.

Might I suggest to all commenting but not debating, or this thread will end in the You-Know-What section instead of General Discussion where it may currently continue to reside.

If that is where it is fated to be ... :p
07/09/2005 01:27:17 PM · #13
FREE WILL just has no chance when FATE determines otherwise!!!
07/09/2005 01:29:47 PM · #14
I think things happen for a reason. That there is no such thing as coincidence. My belief may come from the need to think that there is something more out there. It may also come from a way to deal with some of the things that happen(ed) to me or anyone else out there. I also like to think that although we can not always see why something happens and maybe not see any effect for years or so later that even good things come from bad experiences.

There have been accounts of people surviving the London tube blast only to go out and catch the bus that also exploded. Sure they made the choice on both accounts but perhaps it was meant to happen?
07/09/2005 01:47:16 PM · #15
Originally posted by fotoshootme:

fate? free will? what do you think and why?


honestly this has been a subject that has bothered me for many years.

I was raised in religious environments where I've been taught that God is in control and that he will ultimately have his way. Yet we are taught that there are proper behaviors and we are encouraged to "chose" these. Yet if we do not then the "system" of God has corrections (negitive consequences) built in to "assist" us to make better choices.

Right now I feel like God has put us all on a train destined to some end, but while we are aboard we are free to move about the cabin.
07/09/2005 01:56:22 PM · #16
The physical universe is, at it's most basic level (that we know of, anyway), completely random chaos. There is no order and no structure -- but this chaos gives rise to random occurances of patterns. This structure, first at the sub-atomic level, interacts with each other based on laws that are a part of the structure. This eventually creates the universe in all it's wonder. (I know, there are other theories, but this is the one that is backed up most solidly by observation, and is sufficient to explain it -- no sense complicating it or this discussion by getting side-tracked into that discussion). This structure that became the universe has a lot of inertia to it -- that is, it doesn't give in easily to change. But there is also the ever present influence of the underlying chaos. Thus the universe has a set course that it follows and does not easily alter from, but this course is kept from getting stale by the minor alterations that occur due to the randomness it is based on.

What does this have to do with the discussion? The material universe is not going to change its course and can be said to be fated or destined to continue as it is.

But what does that have to do with us? That depends on if you think yourself to be a part of this wildly spinning ball of mud or if you consider yourself to be something apart from this world and only animating a part of it for your own purposes. I see the fate/free-will debate as one product of whether or not we are just hunks of meat or if we are something else that animates that meat.

We, as individuals, are quite deeply intermixed with the lives of others and the course of the universe -- everyday events influence us and the decisions we make. But, no matter how mired down in trying to cope with the world at large and no matter how much some individuals try to disprove it, we each are capable of thought that is not based on past experience or on the alignment of the stars or any other part of the material universe. It is this ability to make decisions and create thoughts completely independant of anything else that blows fate out of the water.

The material universe is destined to follow the dictates of the forces that are a part of it, but we as indivduals are not. Every time we make plans for the future -- we are taking our fate into our own hands. The success of doing so is a matter of how well we plan -- bad planning or false or missing data can cause failure, but the attempt is still ours to make. When we move a plan forward, resistance if felt -- this is not the cold hand of fate keeping us in line, but is the inertia of the universe that resists all change. It's nothing personal, although we have a tendency to personalize everything.

Succeed or fail in any of our plans is completely up to us, there is no fate quiding our future -- although the same could be said to not be true when talking of the material universe.

David
07/09/2005 02:13:54 PM · #17
My vote goes to....

' . substr('//www.kpriest.com/dpchallenge/freewilly.jpg', strrpos('//www.kpriest.com/dpchallenge/freewilly.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Sorry for crashing. I go away now. :P

07/09/2005 02:19:09 PM · #18
We are all just part of the infinite fractal where fate and faith are inseperably intertwined.
07/09/2005 02:24:01 PM · #19
Goethe said: "Whatever you can do, or think you can, begin it; boldness has genius, magic, and power in it."

Fate or free will is an irrelevant issue if you are unwilling to make an attempt. Belief in predestination, if used to justify inaction ("It makes no difference what I do, so why try?") is a copout. So from a strictly functional point of view, it makes sense to live your life proactively, always trying, always reaching, willing to accept setbacks.

How else can you determine what your "fate" is, except to attempt to carve it as large as you can?

Robt.

Message edited by author 2005-07-09 14:24:39.
07/09/2005 07:26:24 PM · #20
Thanks to ALL! I love ALL your responses!

07/09/2005 07:43:18 PM · #21
I believe that in general, our lives turn less on gigantic decisions than on the collection of minor and often unobserved choices. Of course there will be gigantic exceptions.
07/09/2005 08:01:12 PM · #22
Unless you have the power/means to support you, you have no real free will over real important issues. The power/means is the the product of fate.
07/09/2005 08:09:42 PM · #23
don't really understand why this is in a photography website but...I believe there is no such thing as fate. Everything that happens is a direct cause of people's choices...kinda like the Matrix.
07/09/2005 08:36:31 PM · #24
I believe that in life there is a certain degree of both. Our decisions in life however seemingly insignificant, do constatly effect us and change who we are. We do have power over what we do each day so we must embrace it. As a my Old temstament lit teacher pointed out, all of the prophets went out of their way to seize their own destiny. A famous saying comes to mind but I honestly can't remember who said it or exactly how it goes but this is the jist of it.

"Be wary of your thoughts, for thoughts become words, words become actions, actions become character, and character becomes destiny."

Just a few thoughts, but more imporantly than the answer, is asking the question.
07/09/2005 10:42:31 PM · #25
I have a shackled will.

Every time I engage it in some way, the shackles tighten. Those who provide no evidence of a will of their own, by their indifference, shake my confidence and rob me of even the thinnest hope. Those who oppose me, often have reasons for doing so. I have had to find that their reasons and my reasons are not as far apart as it often appears at the beginning of our dance.

Free will, to me, is a naive utopia, an Americanism or, if taken seriously, a poor joke told by an absolute dictator. I have enough trouble to keep my thoughts free of desire, influence and hear-say without wishing to unleash my individual bent upon others, unless it it tempered by some measure or measures to make it 'reasonable' to do so.

Fate is that which comes before me, helps or hinders me. It is that which results. To me, to accept fate does not mean at all to give up and to falter. It means, instead, to involve truth and the weather before deciding on a course.

Message edited by author 2005-07-09 23:45:45.
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