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07/20/2005 01:01:34 AM · #51
Nice plate of macaroni

Nice red LED light burried underneath the pile

Nice dark room

Nice tripod

Nice idea

BAD DOG!!!!

Nice bill for repairs.

Sorry gonna skip this assignment. Should be back up Thursday.
07/22/2005 12:06:43 AM · #52
Did this class die? I havent't seen any activity here in a few days.
07/22/2005 12:08:26 AM · #53
Our mentor is on vacation and will be back on Sat.
07/23/2005 02:12:21 PM · #54
Originally posted by Britannica:

Originally posted by Digital Quixote:

... I can set my camera to “auto bracket” and it will record 3 or 5 images every time I press the shutter release, just as though I had done it manually. ...

Is the shutter firing for each image, or is this some form of in-camera post processing that lightens or darkens the image. I ask because my camera doesn't have something like this. I can set it to bracket, but I have to hold the shutter release while it takes and stores all of the exposures. It just doesn't sound like the same thing as your one click and it writes several images to the card.

David


I went back to my manual and my camera. Actually I have to press the shutter release for each photo, but the camera varies its setting each time automatically. Obviously best on a tripod shot.
07/23/2005 02:22:14 PM · #55
Originally posted by Britannica:

Originally posted by cpickett:

I have a Rebel 350, so I may not have a clue what I'm talking about. But if his is anything like mine, I have to either press the shutter button once for each exposure, or set the drive mode to "continuous", and hold it down, while it exposes the photos. Also the canon will only do three photos, instead of five. Now that may be different on the higher end ones.

Yes, that is how mine works -- I have to hold the button down if I want it to take more than one exposure. The manual says my camera will do 5 brackets, but it's always greyed out. Maybe the camera just doesn't have enough internal memory to handle more than 3 at the max size. I'll have to try shooting at lower resolutions and see if the option becomes active.

Originally posted by cpickett:

Also, to a certain extent, couldn't this be done with RAW and Photoshop? I know it's best to get it right, without post processing, but if you totally mess it up, it's at least minimally fixable.

Yes, exposure adjustments can be made in photoshop. Actually, from my perspective, anytime the image is made lighter or darker -- in whole or in part -- it's an exposure adjustment. So, the exposure could be corrected in post processing, and indeed may have to be in some cases, but since every action taken in camera and during post processing changes the image and has the potential to lose detail, the earlier it can be 'got right' the more detail and clarity the image is likely to have.

That is also something I've been thinking on today after finishing the article linked above. It is obvious that details are lost when the image is severely over or under exposed -- after all, blown highlights and blocked shadows are gone completely. But as that level of over or under exposure is reached the detail gradually disappears. I've been pondering the question, 'just how far away from perfect exposure can I go without noticable loss of detail?' I don't have an answer yet, as I'm still trying to come up with a series of tests I could do to find out. It's something I am planning on looking into this coming week -- I will of course share any conclusions I may come to on this.

David


I agree with David. You can certainly make exposure adjustments in Photoshop, or in a RAW converter. However, those tools can only adjust the data your camera has captured.

If the camera over (blown whites) or under (lost blacks) exposes a scene, it means you are losing data. And neither Photoshop nor a RAW converter can ever get it back because it was never recorded. So the first best option is to know your camera, and to set it to correctly expose in the first place. Then, you can adjust the exposure using software tools to get the image you want.
07/23/2005 02:24:23 PM · #56
Welcome back! Hope you enjoyed your vacation.

David
07/23/2005 02:29:30 PM · #57
Originally posted by Britannica:

Welcome back! Hope you enjoyed your vacation.

David


Thanks. Had a very nice week up in the San Juan Islands (Pacific waters between Washington State and British Columbia Canada).
07/23/2005 04:28:51 PM · #58
Sounds wonderful! Lots of photo opportunities?

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I nearly gave up on this assignment. I really haven't got a good understanding of how it works/helps yet. Have the manuals of both cameras out and am reading and rereading them. It's an area that I would so like to understand better as I often get it wrong.

These are my 3 most recent challenge entries and all of them 'got it wrong'. The kitten in the bucket was the worst. I set the WB to the bucket, then exposed for the kitten but the result wasn't good.

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edited with first improvement idea.......I think with the kitten shot. I should have set the WB on the b/g, then spot metered on the kitten to get the exposure right. Could also have edited it a lot better.

Used the Sony 717 with all the shots (both challenges and exposure examples) as the canon hadn't come back by then. I'm going to set it up and have another attempt to see if I can get it right. Will have to find another model though as that kitten has now been rehomed.

Message edited by author 2005-07-24 08:43:54.
07/23/2005 08:09:36 PM · #59
Originally posted by suemack:

Sounds wonderful! Lots of photo opportunities?


Absolutely. We have a cabin up there and I took my "Hope of Harbor" photo for the Hope challenge there. It was a lot sunnier and warmer this time. If I have time, I'll edit this post and add a couple of other photos here.

On your kitten, bike-jumping, and mom-and-daughter-jumping photos you said you got them mostly wrong. What you posted was after post-processing. I'd like you to go back to the originals if you have then and carefully and thoughtfully critique the exposure in light of what we've been learning. Feel free to edit your post to include your critique or PM me if you'd rather. Tell me what you felt worked ... there are quite a few things ... and what you would do differently if you could reshoot (to get an exposure you feel would be better.)

I have one other comment on your kitten picture which has nothing to do with exposure. You left it in "Gray Scale" color space. (I assume you used this to desaturate it.) My counsel would be to always leave a photo you post to the web (DPC or other) in sRGB color space. This is the best color space to preserve the fidelity of color, brightness and contrast when viewed on the web through a browser. Printing would be different. When I copied your photo into Photoshop, it looked noticeably different from what I saw on DPC due to the color space issue. Photoshop makes the color space conversion easy. Use Edit/Convert to Profile.

Message edited by author 2005-07-23 20:59:44.
07/23/2005 08:42:46 PM · #60
I'm sorry I'm so far behind (again!). I've been swamped this week. I hope to be able to do the assignment tomorrow, if it's not too late.

I hope you had a great trip Charles and I'm sure we'd all love to see some photos if you don't mind sharing.
-Laura
07/23/2005 08:49:26 PM · #61
Originally posted by sheapod:

I'm sorry I'm so far behind (again!). I've been swamped this week. I hope to be able to do the assignment tomorrow, if it's not too late. -Laura


Not too late; Go for it! Remember, we are buying exposure insurance by bracketing so I expect to see differences in the photos through EV Comp implemented by bracketing.
07/24/2005 12:55:52 AM · #62
I am late by a little its after midnight going into sunday morning..
Hey Sue, I like them blues, I can't believe you would give up...
I almost did too after I seen the outcome of these darn noodles on the plate, the light looks yellowish..
I kept the macro on and should of used aperature priority...
I tried though and what I learned about doing this is the exposure settings can make a big difference in the light when changing the EV it affects the f stop aperature very much.. My camera seems to have less range then in my canon EOS 650, by the dials and such I am going to have to get my film developed but I tried this experiment with it as well. when I do I will have my images put on a disk so I can post them here. Could be a week or so before I do though..
The canon has shutter speeds of 1/2000 to 30s, B, 6 segments or 6.5% spot metering...

In my fugi... (exposure compensation is adjustable from -2.1 to +1.5 exposure equivalents (EV) in one-third-step increments. This is stated in my manual..)
Anyways by going up in the EV it made the image brighter.
By going down the image got darker..
It didnt lose data only light...the darker it got the more shadows there was..the lighter it got the shadows grew lighter as well..

I am still studying about this stuff..spent a couple of days of trying to understand my manual for this camera...read a lot of reviews too..
So here are my pics for this..Wich by the way I dont think I gave the camera time to focus in I wasnt pressing it half way allowing the focus I was just shooting..so I learned something else as well...:) What I dont understand is the bracketing stuff.. I have a way to set my images in the camera 4 ways..Is this like DPOF Digital Print Order FOrmat ? still confused a bit? Continuous shooting mode option for capturing a rapid succession of images is not available for this camera either...
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Message edited by author 2005-07-24 02:14:00.
07/24/2005 01:46:53 AM · #63
Here is one of the best explanations or reviews for this camera if anyone is interested in the info or helping me to understand my camera a bit more.... :)
Ugghhh..
Fugi Fine pix 3100 review
07/24/2005 10:44:43 AM · #64
Welcome back.

I am having the same questions as Tracy. I have taken several groups of shots. My camera will only take 3 (it appears). Adjusting the exposure from -2 to a +2 and the autobracket from -1 to +1 in 1/3 increments. What is actually happening. I have searched for my manual and unable to locate. This process has opened up alot for me as now I have a less likely chance of missing the right exposure.

Message edited by author 2005-07-24 10:47:15.
07/24/2005 01:41:19 PM · #65
Originally posted by bcoble:

... Adjusting the exposure from -2 to a +2 and the autobracket from -1 to +1 in 1/3 increments. What is actually happening. ...

The EV compensation lets us think about exposure (making the image lighter or darker) in terms of stops of light. Bracketing does this automatically, by taking seperate exposures both light and darker than the exposure the camera is set to. This gives a bit of insurance on getting the exposure as light or dark as needed. It's not that we will want or have any use for more than one of the exposures, but it increases the chance of having one we like. It's a lot like firing off 5 frams/sec to have a better chance of getting the timing right on an action shot -- except it is getting exposure right, not timing.

BTW: He has been leading us from completely automatic exposure (using whatever the meter gives us) to some control (EV compensationing the meter reading) to slightly more control with bracketing (multiple exposures at different EV compensations). He is slowly leading up to full manual control of the exposure (adjusting the aperture, shutter and sensitivity manually) -- which will answer more fully what is actually happening with different exposures and why they are darker or lighter than other exposures.

Originally posted by bcoble:

... I have searched for my manual and unable to locate. ...

Panasonic doesn't offer the manual for your camera as a download for some reason (very odd in todays market), but it can be downloaded here for a small fee ($1.99). I have never done business with them so I know nothing about them -- but, due to copywrites and such, I would suspect the manual they have to download is one they wrote themselves, not the one Panasonic provided with the camera. It's an option, should you choose to take it, but use at your own risk.

David
07/24/2005 02:34:55 PM · #66
I was out this morning and saw some bracketing photo ops. Actually, I have been manually bracketing all summer in an attempt to get a shot right LOL

I chose a subject not too bright, yet not all in shadow either. The results are noticeable.

Here are the 3, all STOOC and in this order: plus 1, Normal, minus 1 (the 1 refers to a notch, a 1/3 stop, I assume?)

PLUS 1
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NORMAL
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MINUS 1
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07/24/2005 03:48:14 PM · #67
I have a question.

Once you set up the bracketing and take your first shot do you make any adjustments for your second and third? Or is the camera doing this for me? I tried a few shots before the dog toppled my experiment and broke my lens. Each time I set up for a shot and was happy with my settings I would take my first shot. I would check the exp. meter in my camera view finder before snapping my next shot and the meter was off. Do I leave it at what ever this setting is or adjust again? Also, if I am snapping something that is moving how will bracketing help me if the scene changes?
07/24/2005 03:58:02 PM · #68
Originally posted by jtf6agent:

I have a question.

Once you set up the bracketing and take your first shot do you make any adjustments for your second and third? Or is the camera doing this for me? I tried a few shots before the dog toppled my experiment and broke my lens. Each time I set up for a shot and was happy with my settings I would take my first shot. I would check the exp. meter in my camera view finder before snapping my next shot and the meter was off. Do I leave it at what ever this setting is or adjust again? Also, if I am snapping something that is moving how will bracketing help me if the scene changes?


I confess I mostly manually bracket. But I tried it out on my D70 and all you do is press the shutter again. This assumes bracketing is turned on. So 3 brackets, three presses. No adjustments by you needed in between since the camera handles the change in EV Comp automatically. In fact I would click 3 times one-right-after-the-other ... i.e. 3 shots that would be the same or or very similar except for the EV Comp. What you are trying to do is get the same shot with bracketed EV Comp. Does that make sense?
07/24/2005 05:36:10 PM · #69
Exercise 2:

A couple of pictures from a very shaggy bush in our back yard with purple flowers on it. My camera only has two metering modes so I can't do the three the assignment called for. Both images are un-cropped, resized shots, with the metering being centered on the petal just above the center of the fore-most flower.

This is with Pattern metering:
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This is with Spot metering:
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David
07/24/2005 05:49:01 PM · #70
Ok, so here are my photos. Please try to ignore the horrible composition and shallow DOF. I had already put everything away when I realized I had the aperture on 2.0 -- I have such hopes that someday I'll remember to check that before I take a picture. I'm starting to have my doubts though. lol
Also the light is directly above instead of indirect like it is supposed to be. Anyway, I decided to go ahead and use these as they show what a huge difference bracketing can make.
What I've learned here is that when you have a stationary object it just makes sense to bracket for exposure. Why do it in post processing if you don't have to? As David explained earlier you risk losing data that way.
I've glanced through my manual and learned I can, at least, also bracket the flash and the white balance (which would help me tremendously). Now all I have to do is learn how to do it....and more importantly REMEMBER to do it.

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I'm headed to Chicago for a few days starting tomorrow but I'll check back in when I return.
-Laura
07/24/2005 06:02:01 PM · #71
Exercise 3:

I didn't have any macoroni that I could use, so I used a few pieces of Honeycomb's instead -- it has gradual tones and good texture as well, so hope it was a good choice.

At 1/3 stop intervals (EV: -2/3, -1/3, 0, +1/3, +2/3):
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At 2/3 stop intervals (EV: -5/3, -2/3, 0, +2/3, +5/3):
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At 1 stop intervals (EV: -2, -1, 0, +1, +2):
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The lighting is from a 4-way globed ceiling fixture above and to my right, with a white paper placed around the back of the plate (just out of camera view) to keep the kitchen from being reflected in the plate.

Before choosing the exposure I metered each important part of the scene; a Honeycomb (EV +1/3), the flat of the plate (EV +1), the curve of the plate that didn't get as much light (EV +2/3), the counter top (EV 0) and the shadow of the plate (EV -5/3). Exposure I used as center point of the bracket was choosen because it is roughly halfway between the high and low points -- just coincidence it was also the metered reading of the counter top. Looking at the histograms of each one shows me I made a good choice, with the 'humps' of the detail mostly centered around the middle of the histogram.

David
07/24/2005 06:06:43 PM · #72
bcoble
I also posted this on your evaluative metering shot but I wanted to make sure you received it so I'm copying it here. You may already have this information. If so...disregard. :-)

The FZ20 does allow you to see the histogram. In fact, unlike the dslr's you can see a real time histogram and know before you even press the shutter what the exposure is going to be. The FZ20 is my back up camera and from my experience with it, I always had to have the EV Comp set about 2/3 under to yield good results. Also, if this is a frequent problem you might try the lens hood that came with the camera.(If you can find it that is. It took me hours to locate mine.) It blocks out a lot of light. I still have my manual so if there are any questions you'd like answered feel free to PM me or post in the thread. If I know the answer I'll tell you, if I don't...I'll look it up! :-)
-Laura
07/24/2005 06:40:27 PM · #73
Originally posted by papagei:

Here are the 3, all STOOC and in this order: plus 1, Normal, minus 1 (the 1 refers to a notch, a 1/3 stop, I assume?)

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I am going to respond here because this is an excellent example of bracketing and I can draw some lessons from it.
Lesson 1: Actually none of these is poorly exposed. Good Job Ingrid! It is obvious, however, that bracketing gives us a range of exposure from lighter to darker.
Lesson 2: We are NOT trying to get 3 good exposures with this technique, just 1. The bracketing of EV Comp is insurance that increases the chances of getting one good exposure.
Lesson 3: Which is the best exposure? To my eye, the middle exposure looks best SOOTC. But my eye would be wrong. Both the middle and the left images have blown whites. Blacks are pretty much fine in all three. The right most photo is "best exposed" because we have good tonal range, no blown whites and no lost blacks.
Lesson 4: So why don't I like the right photo better? Because it's dark. However, since I have essentially 100% of the image data captured, I can now make the best photo using Photoshop. There are several approaches. Photoshop CS/CS2's Shadow (22) / Highlight does a pretty good job. In earlier Photoshop versions as well as CS/CS2 Brightness (15) / Contrast (20) looks pretty good. Or another choice Levels (RGB 8/1.23/241) looks pretty good. Even Auto Levels and Auto Contrast does okay.
Lesson 5: With time you will learn better and better how your camera works. It may be that you find all normally metered photos are a little dark, or a little light and you will, out of habit, use a "standard" (for you and your camera) EV Comp. When that happens, Grasshopper, you and your camera will have "bonded!"

In any event, consider EV bracketing as a routine part of your photo taking workflow. It will give you more images to choose from when you edit, and you'll get a better exposure as a result.

Message edited by author 2005-07-24 18:43:29.
07/24/2005 07:21:48 PM · #74
Originally posted by sheapod:

{snip} ...
What I've learned here is that when you have a stationary object it just makes sense to bracket for exposure. Why do it in post processing if you don't have to? As David explained earlier you risk losing data that way. I've glanced through my manual and learned I can, at least, also bracket the flash and the white balance (which would help me tremendously). Now all I have to do is learn how to do it....and more importantly REMEMBER to do it.
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... {snip}

Laura, this is a nice study of the effects of bracketing. By bracketing in full stops you have really illustrated how EV Comp can change the exposure your camera records. Good job with that! You have already drawn some good lessons from this and I'll add a just two more.
Lesson 1: Bracketing by full stops is a bit extreme. Bracketing in 1/3 or 1/2 stop intervals will narrow the range of exposures and still give you the insurance you want.
Lesson 2: Remember, what we want is all the light data to be captured by the camera. We don't want to lose any whites or any blacks. If we can do this in the camera, it gives us maximum flexibility in Photoshop to play with our image and improve it. As David has reminded us, what we lose in the camera, we can never get back in Photoshop.

Message edited by author 2005-07-24 19:22:12.
07/24/2005 07:50:55 PM · #75
Originally posted by Britannica:

At 1/3 stop intervals (EV: -2/3, -1/3, 0, +1/3, +2/3):
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208313.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208313.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208311.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208311.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208309.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208309.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208310.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208310.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208312.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208312.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

At 2/3 stop intervals (EV: -5/3, -2/3, 0, +2/3, +5/3):
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208317.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208317.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208313.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208313.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208309.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208309.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208312.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208312.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208316.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208316.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

At 1 stop intervals (EV: -2, -1, 0, +1, +2):
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208321.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208321.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208315.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208315.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208309.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208309.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208314.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208314.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208320.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/18722/thumb/208320.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Wow David, this is terrific! You've gone over and above the call of duty here. You make me proud! I am pleased you included in your post how you did it. Worth reading and learning from. As with the others, let me draw a few lessons from this.

Lesson 1: The greater the bracket interval size, the greater will be the variation in exposure across the bracket. When the EV interval is 1, it goes from pretty white to pretty dark. When it's 1/3 the gradations are more subtle. With many cameras, you can choose the interval size. So choose it to fit how you work and the "spread" you're after.
Lesson 2: Note that the middle row of images are exactly the same. Why? Because they are all exposed at EV +0 ... i.e. no EV Comp adjustment at all. Logical, right?

So, Oh Wise One, what's the best exposure? Beats me.

Lesson 3: One way to think about it is to ask in which exposures has David a) achieved good tonal range; b) created no blown highlights; c) lost no blacks? These are probably good candidates for best exposed.
Lesson 4: Another way to think about it relates to how David would crop the image. If he cropped each of his 15 photos according to his purpose for the photo, one of those crops will be "best" according to a, b, & c above.

There may be other subtle factors in choosing the best. But here's the real lesson for bracketing EV Comp ...

Lesson 5: Using EV Comp in the first place, and bracketing around your best metering method EV 0 will buy you insurance that you'll get at least one good one. Then let the games begin in Photoshop. With that best exposed original, you will have seized the high ground in your battle for a ribbon!
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