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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> My first DQ *8^(
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07/13/2005 07:15:46 PM · #26
Originally posted by louddog:

I thought I heard zoom blur wasn't allowed in advanced editing? I don't keep up on advanced editing though.


It isn't clear from the board if this is indeed a zoom blur, but if this is a zoom blur then the cross should have been in the center of the original picture. That means he moved a major element to the right for better composition which is probably against the rules.
07/13/2005 07:38:53 PM · #27
The Radial Blur Filter allows you to specify which area of your image you wish the blur to radiate from...you can move the center that way...this is probably what caused that far left side to be soooo blurred...I didn't go crazy with the blur, but with it being so far from the center of the blur, it probably had a greater blur effect.

I'm confused still on this ruling, especially with the comments like "You over-did the blurring and it changed your image too much" Couldn't someone conceivable use any of the PS effects (bright/contrast/hue/sat) or filters or levels or anything so much that it alters the image dramatically? Are all of these policed as strictly...should I start being careful not to over-brighten the image to the point of somewhat hiding a flaw that I see?

I'll be the first to admit that this image looks absolutely nothing like the original...major cropping/sepia/blur/etc...but I would just like to know where that line is in the sand where you can't go beyond it or you risk getting DQ'd...

The rules say to be careful becuase dramatically altering an image may result in poor votes from the voters...but nothing about being careful not to cross the line where that alteration becomes DQ'able

I would just like to say...I agree completely with any ruling passed down by the SC...I love this place too much to let this bend me out of shape...I just want to know when/where I need to be careful to keep this from happening again...I'm not here to fight this ruling...I just want to know why...


07/13/2005 07:45:32 PM · #28
For what it's worth, I really liked the picture and gave you an 8 (or somewhere between 7-10, I already don't remember).
07/13/2005 07:55:17 PM · #29
Just a couple of thoughts:

I don't think there *can* be a line drawn as to what is and what isn't DQ'able.. I think that it will always come down to the submitter's choices vs. the opinions of the SC. These kinds of things are far too objective to have a line drawn. A submitter will either just have to a: submit and take their chances, b: use a little discretion and/or common sense before submitting, c: pull back on the post-processing after a DQ so as not to get another one, but enjoy pushing the boundaries for the first, or d: Any and/or all of the above :)

It would *also* help if the voters weren't constantly rewarding obviously over-processed photos in challenges.. but hey, that's just a part of life.. and my being an idealist isn't going to change anything

Message edited by author 2005-07-13 19:56:08.
07/13/2005 07:58:48 PM · #30
Originally posted by sacredspirit:

As hurtful as it may be I believe in the rules, keeping everybody honest. However I really dont know what DP wants from me as an original file. I know that if whatever is in question, whatever part of the picture that looks altered, if you ask yourself could ACDsee do it (realistically), and the answer will be "no", it is clearly as original as it was when i clicked it.

I sort of feel like DP is saying its ok to enter, but not ok to do well. And I only feel this way for the lack of seriously looking at this photo. After looking at it, it is clearly original.


I also got a DQ for my Leading Lines :( I was excited when my photo ranked fifth. However, I too had issues regarding my original file. In as much as SC's MK tried to help me out figuring how the EXIF got altered, I have to accept that fact that it had changed and I couldn't do anything about it. This experience has not deterred me from entering the challenges though.

My answer is to move on and do your best on other challenges. It's unfortunate that DCP removes your DQed entry from your portfolio and removes the favorites. I think it shouldn't be that way but they set the rules right?

I can't even link my DQed image on this thread. The best I can do is to have people click on my name and see that awful pink band across one of my challenge entries :(

07/13/2005 08:07:58 PM · #31
I understand completely, and I want the rules in place as much as the next, for the same reasons as everybody else to properly keep the challenges honest.

Without further hesitation I will bow before the DP administration, in saying, i took the stupid pill here. I dont know exactly how you want me to keep the pictures more original than I have, and to this point 15 or so challenges later it hasn't been a problem. I guess I will just have to do more research.

As a "note" to anybody else. If you have a default editor for your photos beware of the occuring problem. I would suggest something, but I dont know what the solution is.
07/13/2005 08:12:22 PM · #32
Originally posted by Talarria:


So then we should not use ACDSee to get the images from our camera to the computer. Thanks.


See my DQ thread and here's the comment I received from SC. It's very helpful.

For future challenges, here is the advice that another SC member
said to pass along:

Follow this procedure:

1.) Copy his files (with the operating system) to an "archive" directory
2.) Copy again to a working directory the files he wants to work on
3.) Edit using the files in the working directory. When finished with a submission...
- Create a directory for this challenge
- Save the as-submitted file and a copy of the original in there. Again, emphasize
that the original should be copied there using the OS, and that any time a file
is opened and re-saved using editing software, it is no longer an original.

Using this strategy, he always has at least one untouched copy of the original.
He also has both the original and the submitted file in a directory that is named
for the challenge, and so will be easy to find.
07/13/2005 08:20:53 PM · #33
Was that chinese? LMAO, no, I think i got it, maybe? TY for your time and effort, and to everybody else as well.
07/14/2005 12:35:07 PM · #34
Originally posted by rikki11:

Originally posted by Talarria:


So then we should not use ACDSee to get the images from our camera to the computer. Thanks.


See my DQ thread and here's the comment I received from SC. It's very helpful.

For future challenges, here is the advice that another SC member
said to pass along:

Follow this procedure:

1.) Copy his files (with the operating system) to an "archive" directory
2.) Copy again to a working directory the files he wants to work on
3.) Edit using the files in the working directory. When finished with a submission...
- Create a directory for this challenge
- Save the as-submitted file and a copy of the original in there. Again, emphasize
that the original should be copied there using the OS, and that any time a file
is opened and re-saved using editing software, it is no longer an original.

Using this strategy, he always has at least one untouched copy of the original.
He also has both the original and the submitted file in a directory that is named
for the challenge, and so will be easy to find.


Thanks so much for passing this information along. I know it may seem redundant for some of you that have been at this a long time, but for us newbies, is there somewhere to make this information available on a regular, easily accessable basis? There will be more people joining this site who wont know this. So, I have a few days to now, before the next challenge deadline, figure out how to stop ACDSee and PS Elements from automatically getting the pictures from the card reader. Will have to ask the Hubby how to do that.

Thanks! Karin.
07/14/2005 12:45:11 PM · #35
See Im thinking that I installed ACDsee for my camera, and at that point the only connecting device i have to put photos on pc is the cord that goes into the pc, now my assumption was that after traveling through the cord ACDsee is the landing pad.

(----now right here is my question, at this point does ACDsee snatch my photos as default editor, or is it after I rotate and save, or can I possibly take them from the memory card and choose a different landing pad. I thought it had to be ACDsee, which is why Im so uneasy about being DQ'd, well that and it is a blatently obvious original.----)

Message edited by author 2005-07-14 12:50:03.
07/14/2005 12:53:19 PM · #36
When the camera is connected, it should show up in My Computer (Windows) or on the Desktop (Mac) as another peripheral device, like an external hard drive. Copy the files the way you'd copy any other file from a CD or floppy, by dragging from the current location to the target folder.

If that isn't working, get a card reader! I've gotten one on sale for under $10 which reads 8 kinds of cards--it's a huge time-saver, simple, and saves wear and tear on the camera and batteries.

Like here!

Message edited by author 2005-07-14 12:54:24.
07/14/2005 01:01:13 PM · #37
Perhaps what is needed, with a link from the editing rules, is a tutorial on how to download images in a way that is acceptable to dp.

For example I've downloaded with Adobe, Nikon, Canon, and Windows software. I've never bothered to look an make sure that any or all of these don't change the critial data and thus could make it impossible to validate the image.

I also suspect that finding out from the various sofware products/Camera vendors, etc. if they change the critical data would not be easy. That is not the kind of thing they are going to shove in your face.

Of course I have yet to enter a photo - so no DQ risk so far.

07/14/2005 01:02:58 PM · #38
Very cool General, ty. So in essence you are saying that the camera is a driver in and of itself, and there is no need for ACDsee to work along side of it to view, or preserve originals.

Now would you happen to know if ACDsee can preserve original as long as the picture stays unmanipulated by the program.

Because for some reason I am thinking that rather the folder be in ACDsee or somewhere else or even viewed in ACDsee it shouldn't affect the file itself until manipulated and saved as such.
07/14/2005 01:07:37 PM · #39
They will all change the EXIF data to show that the program has somehow processed the image. Once that occurs, there's no way to verify that nothing else has been changed.

I'm not sure why people seem to have so much trouble with this ... just treat an image file like any other file for the purposes of copying or moving it around. If you wanted to copy an Excel or Word file to a floppy you wouldn't routinely launch the program, open the file, and SaveAs; I suspect most people would find the file in a directory and drag it to the destination folder. Do the same with your originals and you won't have a problem (with EXIF).

Message edited by author 2005-07-14 13:08:17.
07/14/2005 01:10:11 PM · #40
And thats fine General, but whats bothering me here is that ACDsee automatically launches, as soon as I turn my camera on via the cord. Its supposed to thats why I installed it. (i think)
07/14/2005 01:11:47 PM · #41
Honestly, I've only hooked my camera directly to the computer once; my older one has a serial connection, and it took about an hour to copy a card's worth of files. Otherwise, I always use a card reader. It is so much easier!
07/14/2005 01:15:20 PM · #42
Originally posted by sacredspirit:

...ACDsee automatically launches, as soon as I turn my camera on via the cord.


That's for convenience, not necessity. You can either find and disable that preference, or quit ACDsee after it launches and drag the files off your card manually. Another option would be to use ACDsee as usual, but don't erase the files off your card. When ACDsee is finished downloading, make another copy of the files directly off the card and burn a backup CD (a good practice anyway).
07/14/2005 01:28:03 PM · #43
ok call me bullheaded, but I think....no..no...I know I got it now.

Now somebody wrench the stake outta of my heart for the DQ im gonna get and my first photo running over a 6.5. And it was original by golly...it was it was it was. LOL.
07/14/2005 03:18:52 PM · #44
Originally posted by GeneralE:

They will all change the EXIF data to show that the program has somehow processed the image. Once that occurs, there's no way to verify that nothing else has been changed.

I'm not sure why people seem to have so much trouble with this ... just treat an image file like any other file for the purposes of copying or moving it around. If you wanted to copy an Excel or Word file to a floppy you wouldn't routinely launch the program, open the file, and SaveAs; I suspect most people would find the file in a directory and drag it to the destination folder. Do the same with your originals and you won't have a problem (with EXIF).


I had no idea that ACDSee or PS Elements altered the EXIF - did not even know what EXIF was until yesterday! And, being the tcheno pesant that I am, I do actually open Excel or Word to save to a floppy.... :) Did not know until your post that you could do it any other way! (feeling really blonde now!)

Anyways, now that I know to just 'drag and drop' and bypass ACDSee or PS Elements, I will have to get the hubby to show me how to do that, and how to stop ACDSee and PS Elements from both starting up automatically as soon as I plug in that card reader.

Gosh, when I decided to get into digital photography and visited here, I never thought I would be forced to learn how to use this silly computer thing! Guess that is a good thing - wont have to bug DH every time the computer acts up and wont do what I want it to do.

Thanks for all the help. I learned something very useful today!
07/14/2005 04:06:43 PM · #45
Learning is what this site is all about ... just don't be frustrated when you don't learn it all at once. I've been using Photoshop on digital photos since 1989 (version 2.0 on a black-and-white computer!) and I learn new things from people here all the time.
07/14/2005 04:30:14 PM · #46
Some how this seems to be getting very complicated.

After reading all of this I come to the conclusion that in order to preserve the EXIF data in it pure form I have to:

1. Download the data as if it came from an external hard drive using a card reader or treating the camera that way.

2. Make a copy of all of the images.

3. Never - ever open any of the original images with any kind of editing or viewing software. - This may seem extreem, but without a good bit of work I don't see how anyone knows what software will edit the EXIF data.

07/14/2005 04:31:37 PM · #47
You can open the images in editing software, just don't save them with it. All software will edit the EXIF data.
07/14/2005 05:35:27 PM · #48
Are you shore, and is there any way to check the EXIF to tell if it has been modified - at least easily.

I ask because back in my point and shoot days I always used the Microsoft Picture and FAX viewer to download my file directly from the camera. Then when I got a better camera and attempted to rotate the image it gave me a warning that doing so would permanatly reduce the quality of the picture - due to it's size. I get the warning even if I don't save the image, all I do it try to rotate it. So something seems to be going on. I am left feeling that if the image was not so big it would do the rotation and might just save something - without telling me.
07/14/2005 06:32:14 PM · #49
Originally posted by rikki11:

I can't even link my DQed image on this thread. The best I can do is to have people click on my name and see that awful pink band across one of my challenge entries :(

Not sure why they would make the image available, but not allow the thumb image link thing to work on DQ images - maybe just a side-effect of the functionality. Of course, for everything there is always a work-around...

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/352/thumb/196073.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/352/thumb/196073.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Sorry, that's really all I can contribute to this thread except to say that both Cooz and rikki11 are taking this very well, as do the majority, IMO. Condolences and congratulations. Very nice photos, both.

oh, I think it was Artyste who mentioned the "line" and I would like to say that the blur/post-proc thing is too highly subjective. The zoom and radial blurs use a numeric value - seems simple enough to at least provide an example value of what would be considered illegal. And if it is a matter of judgement anyway, the SC should look through the Challenge Archives with side-by-side photos (original and submitted) to help guide them to be consistent. My two cents.
07/14/2005 06:43:54 PM · #50
I think the thumbs will work once the voting is concluded and the image appears at the end of the challenge results. While the voting is active, the path to the images does not coincide with the path specified in the "thumb" shortcut--there's hidden code you don't see when you use the Thumbs button.

I'm not sure we should post dq'd entries during the voting anyway, any more than a current entry. There have been rare cases of a DQ'd image being renstated, and the discussion of the DQ'd image will inevitiably color people's opinions of the images still being voted on, if not invite outright comparisons.

I really think the time to discuss DQs and outtakes is after the voting is over, when they can be freely discussed in comparison to the actual entries.

Message edited by author 2005-07-14 18:44:26.
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