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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Border inside photo
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06/02/2003 01:35:36 AM · #1
Anyone wanna explain how to put a line inside the photo as in the third place winner "Beaute Naturelle". I know we're being lenient with the borders, but I thought they couldn't contain photographs... that doesn't include another part of the same photograph? What would be the difference (as far as rules) between this and someone putting a box around only a small section of the shot (say someone's head) and calling the rest border?

I'm not attacking this shot at all. It was one of my top votes. I just wanted a rule clarification.
06/02/2003 01:45:44 AM · #2
hmm, good post. I'm also wondering what is allowed and what's not. What if someone submitted a 4x6 photo, but with a 2x3 frame in the form of a thin white line? is that allowed?
06/02/2003 02:16:21 AM · #3
To me, this is spot-editing. I'm all for allowing spot-editing in all challenges here, but as it stands I thought that altering pixels differentially inside the confines of the photo was against the rules. If these are allowed, wouldn't I be able to add a little cloned border in the corner of one of my photos to 'enhance' it?

Down with confusion, up with unrestricted eiditing. It'll make photos around here a whole lot better...
06/02/2003 04:29:55 AM · #4
The only way I can think how to do this would be to make a selection where you want the border and add a stroke to it. And I agree with everything jimmy said.

Message edited by author 2003-06-02 04:30:17.
06/02/2003 04:39:44 AM · #5
I would SelectAll (allowed), contract the selection by N pixels, and stroke the selection.

You are not actually adding a photo to the border this way, you are covering part of the existing photo.

Judging from what I've done on the past few borders, pretty much anything you do starting from that full rectangular selection is permissible, so long as you are not ADDING art or type.

Best to not worry about borders as it is pretty much anything goes...just copy the ones you like and vote down the ones you don't...

Message edited by author 2003-06-02 04:40:33.
06/02/2003 10:15:27 AM · #6
So if I SelectAll, contract the selection by N pixels, and applied a filter to the selection that would also be legal?

The way I understand the current rules, you apply a filter (or stroke) to the whole image not to a selection as described above.

I think this would be ok because I prefer more editing but I also think it should be included in the rules.

edit: After looking at the image again it looks like the white line was drawn because on my monitor it looks like it is closer to the right side than the other three sides. hmmm.

Message edited by author 2003-06-02 10:36:46.
06/02/2003 11:37:15 AM · #7
Originally posted by goodtempo:

edit: After looking at the image again it looks like the white line was drawn because on my monitor it looks like it is closer to the right side than the other three sides. hmmm.


It could have originally been even, then cropped after it was added to make it seem closer to the right.
06/02/2003 12:19:03 PM · #8
true

Originally posted by Konador:

Originally posted by goodtempo:

edit: After looking at the image again it looks like the white line was drawn because on my monitor it looks like it is closer to the right side than the other three sides. hmmm.


It could have originally been even, then cropped after it was added to make it seem closer to the right.

06/02/2003 01:02:51 PM · #9
Originally posted by goodtempo:

So if I SelectAll, contract the selection by N pixels, and applied a filter to the selection that would also be legal?

No, I don't think so. Most of the filters are illegal anyway. And while we are (apparently) allowed to use the selection to apply color, we are NOT allowed to apply any filter or adjustment to a selected area of the photo.
06/02/2003 01:29:04 PM · #10
Indigo,

All I did was "select" a part of the photo and then selected a color for the stroke, that's it. No filters no editing photos or pices, etc.

thank's for your interest,

LM

06/02/2003 01:54:03 PM · #11
Spot-Editing: Absolutely no spot-editing is allowed. The use of any type of selection tool is prohibited except to select a non-feathered, non-anti-aliased rectangular area for cropping.

I'm pretty sure you just said you used a selection tool - I'm also pretty sure that the Site Council thinks anything other than text is perfectly allowed. I wasn't the one who recommended you for DQ, but only because of the admin note - I thought you'd explained a legal way to do it, but you obviously did not.
06/02/2003 02:31:04 PM · #12
This is more out of personal interest than doing for a DPC entry...

I've tried to reproduce this border method on a photo of mine. I follwed GeneralE's approach of selecting and then reducing the border by say 20 pixels. Its from here I dont seem to be able to finish correctly. So, the method i've been doing is to Select All, then Select --> Modify --> Border (Change this to say 20), if I then do Edit --> Stroke (say set to 2) I always end up with a feathered border instead of a solid line, and I cant find the correct option in Stroke to get a solid line. If anyone can see where I'm going wrong or can tell me how to get this right I'd appreciate it.

Alan
06/02/2003 02:36:47 PM · #13
Use the rectangular marquee.
Make a selection.
Right click.
Stroke.
set options.
Ok.

done.
06/02/2003 02:41:54 PM · #14
Thanks Mavrik, that got it!

Addition: Is there a way to do it by selecting all then decreasing the selection (without using Modify --> border) as this would ensure perfectly sized selection as opposed to judging by eye and possibly getting it a bit skewed

Message edited by author 2003-06-02 14:46:31.
06/02/2003 02:55:22 PM · #15
I think that feathered border is a PS7 thing (bug?) that we tried to turn off and couldn't. Try using PS5 if you have it around and see if that works.

If you put up the info window, you can probably use the pen tool to make a rectangular path, which you can then stroke directly or convert into a selection. Probably NOT DPC-legal, though....

Message edited by author 2003-06-02 14:56:54.
06/02/2003 03:04:05 PM · #16
Originally posted by GeneralE:

I think that feathered border is a PS7 thing (bug?) that we tried to turn off and couldn't. Try using PS5 if you have it around and see if that works.

If you put up the info window, you can probably use the pen tool to make a rectangular path, which you can then stroke directly or convert into a selection. Probably NOT DPC-legal, though....


I also have PSP 6, but the only method i can find in there is to do a PS 7 type method of simply doing a stroked rectangle as you suggest. Seems as if there is no effective way of doing this type of border and ensuring a perfectly sized border, never mind, I'm sure they'll look good anyway if used :o)
06/02/2003 03:04:53 PM · #17
The admin note was for a different reason, not for the border issue which seems to still be open now. Any admins want to take this issue up and give us a ruling?


Originally posted by mavrik:

Spot-Editing: Absolutely no spot-editing is allowed. The use of any type of selection tool is prohibited except to select a non-feathered, non-anti-aliased rectangular area for cropping. [/b]

I'm pretty sure you just said you used a selection tool - I'm also pretty sure that the Site Council thinks anything other than text is perfectly allowed. I wasn't the one who recommended you for DQ, but only because of the admin note - I thought you'd explained a legal way to do it, but you obviously did not.
text
06/02/2003 03:16:26 PM · #18
Originally posted by goodtempo:

The admin note was for a different reason, not for the border issue which seems to still be open now. Any admins want to take this issue up and give us a ruling?


Originally posted by mavrik:

Spot-Editing: Absolutely no spot-editing is allowed. The use of any type of selection tool is prohibited except to select a non-feathered, non-anti-aliased rectangular area for cropping. [/b]

I'm pretty sure you just said you used a selection tool - I'm also pretty sure that the Site Council thinks anything other than text is perfectly allowed. I wasn't the one who recommended you for DQ, but only because of the admin note - I thought you'd explained a legal way to do it, but you obviously did not.

Remember that most stuff posted by Site Council members here in the forums still represent our OPINION, not a definitive ruling, unless it is clearly so stated (and hopefully with the rules referenced), or it's posted by Drew or Langdon (it's their site, and they can do what they want).

I myself have been surprised lately at the latitude (and attitude) afforded borders. The most consistent response seems to have been border it however you want, and accept the consequences in the form of your vote results, but not as a DQ.
06/02/2003 08:47:58 PM · #19
It seems possible to create this border without selecting a part of the image, and without completely relying on freehand drawing. I did it like this:
1.) Select the rectangle tool
2.) Click the "paths" button on the toolbar
3.) Create the path (click & drag)
4.) Adjust position as necessary (don't think size can be adjusted)
5.) Select brush and set properties
6.) Reselect rectangle tool (path button still highlighted)
7.) Right click on the path, select stroke path
8.) Select "brush from the dialog"
9.) Click OK

The path is stroked with the brush and color selected. None of the image was ever selected.
06/03/2003 02:23:46 PM · #20
Originally posted by kirbic:

It seems possible to create this border without selecting a part of the image, and without completely relying on freehand drawing. I did it like this:
1.) Select the rectangle tool
2.) Click the "paths" button on the toolbar
3.) Create the path (click & drag)
4.) Adjust position as necessary (don't think size can be adjusted)
5.) Select brush and set properties
6.) Reselect rectangle tool (path button still highlighted)
7.) Right click on the path, select stroke path
8.) Select "brush from the dialog"
9.) Click OK

The path is stroked with the brush and color selected. None of the image was ever selected.


Wouldn't the first step here violate the rules? "Spot-Editing: Absolutely no spot-editing is allowed. The use of any type of selection tool is prohibited except to select a non-feathered, non-anti-aliased rectangular area for cropping."

I think the picture in question is great and I'm not saying it should be DQ'd - but I still don't understand how the border created was done so within the challenge rules.
06/03/2003 02:30:18 PM · #21
It is a great shot and worthy of the award. However, if it breeches the rules (as lmhr's explanation seems to suggest to a layman like me) it must go.

If it doesn't, then other fine photographers here who have had excellent work DQed for similar doings have a genuine reason to complain. I always think of Ben Robert's fabulous castle picture that won first place only to be DQed for a small infringement.


06/03/2003 02:46:41 PM · #22
Originally posted by tjuneau13:

I think the picture in question is great and I'm not saying it should be DQ'd - but I still don't understand how the border created was done so within the challenge rules.


It wasn't. The admins don't care about border rules. Run with whatever you'd like.
06/03/2003 02:48:50 PM · #23
There were so many petty DQs with border issues, that we decided to just let anything go for borders.
06/03/2003 02:53:44 PM · #24
D&L need to change the rule then. Or at least this should be an "official" change to policy, not something the Council dreamed up one Saturday morning and decided to let slide - it's obviously been a major issue around here for awhile.
06/03/2003 03:26:52 PM · #25
A couple things worth noting:

The border rule and the image editing rule are separate and distinct line items. Some things that are illegal to do to your photograph are legal to do to create your border (for example, use of a selection tool, filter or action to create a drop shadow). Artwork is specifically prohibited within the border rule to prevent people from abusing the rule to, among other things, include multile photographs (a triptych where two images are part of the border) or to include logos. Text is prohibited to help maintain the anonymous spirit of the challenge.

At the time that we wrote the border rule, we considered including language that required the border must fully contact the outer edges. Ultimately, that wording was rejected.

An admin note is only added to a photograph after the photographer has provided the administrators with an unaltered original and the steps taken to produce the final image. If they cannot duplicate the result, the image is not considered proven and can not receive a note. There have been cases where a photograph was disqualified for a different issue than what we requested proof for; when we review a DQ request all aspects of the submission are considered.

Abuse of the border rule to spot-edit a photograph will result in disqualification.

-Terry

Note: This post has been reviewed by an administrator and represents an official position of DPChallenge.

Message edited by author 2003-06-03 15:29:58.
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