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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Why do we score so low ?
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11/17/2005 01:08:14 AM · #1
Just been reading a couple of other threads which got me thinking and thought I would post a few questions.

Why are the best photographers on the site average score only around 6 ?

Why do only a handful of shots end up with a score over 7 in each challenge ?

Why does on a whole the voters on this site vote so low ?

This is not intended as a witch hunt I'm just curious to here some views on this. I strongly believe this site has some awesome talent and there is some incredible shots taken in each challenge but we all score shots lower then you would expect.



11/17/2005 01:29:00 AM · #2
i think its has a big contribution from the fact that the voters are also participating in the challenge and almost everybody wants to win. So, if someone wants to win how can he vote someone more than what he is scoring. Some people do vote higher than what they are getting but this factor i guess plays a role.
11/17/2005 01:29:38 AM · #3
I vote according to how others vote on my photo...but i was wondering the same thing...
11/17/2005 01:47:19 AM · #4
earlier once i posted that i do not like everybody voting but the fact that people participation is also important, i have come up with another scheme. I think we shall have both ways, that people shall also vote and then a panel of 5 people, who are not participating in the competion, and thought to be good at photography judge the same photos.
Now the final score shall be some what like this
lets say due to public voting one scores V score out of 10, and for the same photo judges give J out of 10,
so the final score would be = 0.6 * V + 0.4 * J

this will take down on the bogus 1 votes. Since a good photograph shall be judged high by both people and judges and bad will be voted low by both judges and people over all. But this might compensate the bogus votes, if the difference is high, that is if i get too many bogus, that will be somewhat rectified by judegs.

We take a simple example, imagine some one scores 6.2 by voting, and he got 25 bogus 1s , which shall be at least 4.5 (around average)
and let 250 people voted on his image.
so he scored = 250 * 6.2 = 1550,
so we take down bogus ones and add average to it
so new score shall be 1550 - 25 * 1 + 25 * 4.5 = 1637.5
that would make it = 1637.5 / 250 = 6.55 as score

now lets say judges gave that photo 7 out of 10 since it was good photo.
so by our formula we have = 0.6 * 6.2 + 0.4 * 7 = 6.52

which is not bad estimation. I hope admin give a thought to this.
11/17/2005 01:51:07 AM · #5
I've posted this before but here it is again. It has to be a really outstanding photo for me to vote a 10! Most of my votes are around the 4 - 7 mark. Any less than that means I don't particularly like the photo or it doesn't meet the challenge etc. Titles don't influence me none and most of the time I don't read them. I'm not trying to be mean by giving lower scores to some photos but I am being honest. The photos have to appeal to ME, afterall, isn't that the idea of voting?
11/17/2005 01:51:54 AM · #6
Some people don't give out "10's" unless it's absolutely perfect. Some might not even issue "10's".
11/17/2005 01:59:55 AM · #7
Originally posted by zxaar:

Now the final score shall be some what like this
lets say due to public voting one scores V score out of 10, and for the same photo judges give J out of 10,
so the final score would be = 0.6 * V + 0.4 * J


The idea of a weighted system has appeal to it. I'm afraid that this would represent an impossible challenge to the judges, all of whom would have to carefully vote on everything in every challenge. The move away from the fully democratic voting system in place would also likely upset a lot of people.

I think there are two major reasons for the way we vote: 1) using the results of other challenges as a model for voting and 2) lack of time for careful analysis.

Since, as you say, most challenges have only a very few images over 7, this, I think, translates to a vote of 7 meaning "excellent image." Compare this with what might be a more "objective" method of voting: 7/10 = 70% = above average but still significantly lacking. I do not think that this latter voting method is employed by very many at DPC at all.

Also, it takes a long time to sort through a challenge of even 150 images and rank them with any degree of consistency and care. The second and third pass that some voters make is, I think, crucial to voting fairly, but again I suspect that few voters do this. The result is a lot of rough voting with an aberrant clump in the 4-6 range.
11/17/2005 02:03:00 AM · #8
i think judges could change every challenge, but you are right.
11/17/2005 02:04:48 AM · #9
i personally vote 1 if i surely know that the image shall be disqualified and does not meet challenge requirements. Like using natural light in artificial light competition for example.
11/17/2005 02:12:13 AM · #10
Originally posted by zxaar:

i personally vote 1 if i surely know that the image shall be disqualified and does not meet challenge requirements. Like using natural light in artificial light competition for example.


I don't know if you have been told before but you should still vote every image as if it is legal even if you suspect it isn't. Secondly the example you have given is not grounds for DQ.
11/17/2005 02:14:51 AM · #11
hummm ....

Originally posted by keegbow:

Originally posted by zxaar:

i personally vote 1 if i surely know that the image shall be disqualified and does not meet challenge requirements. Like using natural light in artificial light competition for example.


I don't know if you have been told before but you should still vote every image as if it is legal even if you suspect it isn't. Secondly the example you have given is not grounds for DQ.
11/17/2005 02:18:13 AM · #12
Originally posted by keegbow:

Why does on a whole the voters on this site vote so low ?


EddyG has proven using statisticts that voters who did not participate, on the average, score 1 point higher than voters who participated.

It is also human to score photographs that in your opinion are not better than your entry, below your current score.

The combination of the two drags average scores down.
11/17/2005 02:22:57 AM · #13
what about if the voters do not know their scores till the end, and these are participating in the challenge. Will be interesting to see how they behave.

Originally posted by Nitin:

Originally posted by keegbow:

Why does on a whole the voters on this site vote so low ?


EddyG has proven using statisticts that voters who did not participate, on the average, score 1 point higher than voters who participated.

It is also human to score photographs that in your opinion are not better than your entry, below your current score.

The combination of the two drags average scores down.
11/17/2005 02:33:42 AM · #14
Originally posted by zxaar:

i personally vote 1 if [it] does not meet challenge requirements. Like using natural light in artificial light competition for example.


I decide on my initial impression of the image, then if it uses natural light for example I deduct points from my original impression. I don't think I should vote an image 1 if it is a great photo that happens to misplaced, but I'm not going to give it my full vote either. Just how I work with that.
11/17/2005 02:35:19 AM · #15
Originally posted by Nitin:

Originally posted by keegbow:

Why does on a whole the voters on this site vote so low ?


EddyG has proven using statisticts that voters who did not participate, on the average, score 1 point higher than voters who participated.

It is also human to score photographs that in your opinion are not better than your entry, below your current score.

The combination of the two drags average scores down.


Yes I do remember seeing that. It adds more weight to the argument of only voting on the challenges you have not entered especially now that we have two open challenges to enter.
11/17/2005 02:36:13 AM · #16
Originally posted by zxaar:

what about if the voters do not know their scores till the end, and these are participating in the challenge. Will be interesting to see how they behave.

Originally posted by Nitin:

Originally posted by keegbow:

Why does on a whole the voters on this site vote so low ?


EddyG has proven using statisticts that voters who did not participate, on the average, score 1 point higher than voters who participated.

It is also human to score photographs that in your opinion are not better than your entry, below your current score.

The combination of the two drags average scores down.


You can't take the up date button away from us :)
11/17/2005 02:43:32 AM · #17
it could make a good genetic algorithm based project, where people evolve to vote based on these constraints, if i get time i will try to write comp prog to simulate it,
11/17/2005 03:05:59 AM · #18
Originally posted by zxaar:

i personally vote 1 if i surely know that the image shall be disqualified and does not meet challenge requirements. Like using natural light in artificial light competition for example.


How do you know an image will be disqualified???

Not even SC knows that unless a validation request is made and they deliberate on it.

If you suspect a photo has grounds for a disqualification, the proper procedure is to click on the button to request validation for it and then to vote on it as if it is totally legal!
11/17/2005 03:13:14 AM · #19
Sorry here when i say disqualify i mean does not meet the cretiria of challenge. (I used the word because if the entry does not meet the cretiria i feel it should be disqualified), And then i am free to vote, as others are.

Originally posted by taterbug:

Originally posted by zxaar:

i personally vote 1 if i surely know that the image shall be disqualified and does not meet challenge requirements. Like using natural light in artificial light competition for example.


How do you know an image will be disqualified???

Not even SC knows that unless a validation request is made and they deliberate on it.

If you suspect a photo has grounds for a disqualification, the proper procedure is to click on the button to request validation for it and then to vote on it as if it is totally legal!
11/17/2005 03:16:54 AM · #20
Originally posted by zxaar:

Sorry here when i say disqualify i mean does not meet the cretiria of challenge. (I used the word because if the entry does not meet the cretiria i feel it should be disqualified), And then i am free to vote, as others are.


I don't think the photo should be disqualified if it doesn't meet the criteria. It should only be disqualified if the entrant breaks the rules set. If you don't feel that it meets the criteria of the challenge then vote it accordingly.
11/17/2005 04:00:23 AM · #21
that is why i give one to it, and mention that in comment.

Originally posted by Makka:

Originally posted by zxaar:

Sorry here when i say disqualify i mean does not meet the cretiria of challenge. (I used the word because if the entry does not meet the cretiria i feel it should be disqualified), And then i am free to vote, as others are.


I don't think the photo should be disqualified if it doesn't meet the criteria. It should only be disqualified if the entrant breaks the rules set. If you don't feel that it meets the criteria of the challenge then vote it accordingly.
11/17/2005 05:19:06 PM · #22
edit

Message edited by author 2005-11-17 17:20:11.
11/17/2005 05:28:21 PM · #23
Originally posted by zxaar:

i think its has a big contribution from the fact that the voters are also participating in the challenge and almost everybody wants to win. So, if someone wants to win how can he vote someone more than what he is scoring. Some people do vote higher than what they are getting but this factor i guess plays a role.


I don't think so - I and a lot of others do not enter into a lot of challenges but still vote.
11/17/2005 05:32:19 PM · #24
Heck, I use to be kind of a cranky voter, giving out alot of 2s,3s, & 4s, but now, I tend to think much more liberally. I mean, if it is a decent photo, how can I give it only a 5 on a scale of 10? To me, anything meeting the challenge and technically decent (in focus, etc) will get a minimum of 5, probably higher from me. Just my 2 cents.
11/17/2005 05:38:41 PM · #25
Originally posted by Nitin:

Originally posted by keegbow:

Why does on a whole the voters on this site vote so low ?


It is also human to score photographs that in your opinion are not better than your entry, below your current score.


I am currently in my 3rd challenge entry, and I did think about this point. I wanted to be "fair" so I decided that prior to looking at my score in the Light II entry, I would go through and vote on all the entries. Granted that my initial vote will not be the final standing but I normally don't deviate by more than 1 point from my original.

I also voted on the same night on the Camouflage challenge and did find it slightly easier to vote on a challenge that I didn't enter. Still, I will go through those before the week's over and give each my final score and comment. Just my 2 cents.
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