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12/08/2005 02:02:26 PM · #1
What is the difference between these 4 shots:
5th: ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/401/thumb/261967.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/401/thumb/261967.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
61st: ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/401/thumb/264129.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/401/thumb/264129.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
173rd: ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/401/thumb/256687.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/401/thumb/256687.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
278th: ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/401/thumb/263551.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/401/thumb/263551.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Sure there are some quality issues with some, but it looks like the Flag Art one got particularly slammed for "copying". Librodo's is probably the least exact copy and he's copying himself anyway pretty much, but the others are nearly identical.

There were several more in the group as well. Just wondering if people see something copied they get immediately jaded and don't vote on the quality of the image - probably the same people that attack others for voting images down because they are put off by nudity or other subject matter.

I didn't vote the Free Study challenge but I will admit I do tend to have a negative reaction to nearly exact copies and may knock a point off for lack of originality, but will try to give credit for the resulting reproduction.

Thoughts?
12/08/2005 02:10:08 PM · #2
I didn't vote in this one (cannot).

To me the last 2 are obviously copies and while I see the benefit of recreating them for learning (it's always possible they are unlucky if they didn't know about the other pics); I don't see the point to putting them into a challenge (just my opinion).

The egg does not look familiar to me but I think it's just the last 2 were copies of such a great concept that everybody remembers the other pics.
12/08/2005 02:14:32 PM · #3
Originally posted by robs:

I didn't vote in this one (cannot).

To me the last 2 are obviously copies and while I see the benefit of recreating them for learning (it's always possible they are unlucky if they didn't know about the other pics); I don't see the point to putting them into a challenge (just my opinion).

The egg does not look familiar to me but I think it's just the last 2 were copies of such a great concept that everybody remembers the other pics.


Even if your copying yourself, you should be knocked. There is a difference between a shooting style, and shoooting the EXACT same shot with different models.
12/08/2005 02:16:25 PM · #4
Let's see, 5th place has more appeal to me than the others. It is just plain more enjoyable to look at. it is well executed. I could look at it for hours and still enjoy it. 61st place got an 8 from me. It is a unique idea IMO and done well. Just not as pleasant to look at. 173rd got a 7 from me. This idea has been done a couple of times in recent challenges, and IMO done better then. 278th is an idea that is just plain getting old. This wasn't drastically different nor better then the last bunch of times it was done. It got a 6 from me. Not to mention it is not something that I personally found enjoyable to look at.

Jen
12/08/2005 03:26:17 PM · #5
Originally posted by MrsFuzzButt:

61st place got an 8 from me. It is a unique idea IMO and done well. Just not as pleasant to look at.
Jen


I've seen this one, probably here on DPC at some point in the past. It was better..if i recall it had little chicken foot prints walking away from the egg.

I too see little point in submitting a copy, unless it is a deja vu challenge. Of course, i'd not bother to try and copy for learning's sake without perhaps the motivation of entering it in a challenge...catch 22 there for me. But I might try some new and unique twist or angle on it.

Ideas...
tic tac toe on inside of egg, 2 sets of footprints...
state flag or british flag or the like under wet glass.
the lightbulb one to me has done a twist or new angle. Same with the girl, besides, portraits interest me as th elight and shadow, skina dneyes, and the perons' features are different every time.
12/08/2005 03:27:41 PM · #6
I'm a big fan of creativity and originality. I much rather give a higher mark to a photo that attempts that and fails then one that has zero creativity or originality and is successful in duplicating something that has already ranked well before. I think those photos (except for Librodo's) should have been ranked low.

Personally, I didn't like the originals of these shots but at least those had creativity and originality to them and these copies did not have that. Lacking that quality suddenly makes this type of shot look like nothing more than a gimmicky attempt to win a ribbon.

As for Librodo, I haven't been on this site often but even I have come across his work which is very good. I can see some penalizing him for going to the well once too often but at least he has established a style and is exploring it, which I think is the point of any kind of creative photography. Even if Librodo was just mimicking the exact same shot that someone else took it should still far out rank ones involving egg shells, light bulbs and the like which by default is going to have less going for it.

Message edited by author 2005-12-08 15:31:20.
12/08/2005 03:38:09 PM · #7
5th place is a style, not a duplicate
61st place was perhaps not well known as a duplicate (I didn't remember it)
173rd was an homage in that it wasn't the same (earth for moon, different composition). Turns out the creator says it was his own idea (I believe him, although perhaps he had seen scalvert's pic and only subconsciously copied it.
278th was a direct copy of perhaps one of the best known pictures on the site (it's the highest rated anyway). Not only that, but the flag is a freaking lightning rod these days anyway. I still gave it a 7 for a nice attempt (as I don't think it's bad to try to copy a picture you like, as long as you are willing to be measured against the original).

There you go, my take. Interestingly I gave all four entries a 7.
12/08/2005 03:50:51 PM · #8
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

5th place is a style, not a duplicate


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Compositionally, they are duplicates. You could draw an image on your view finder with a marker that had a face on the outside 3rd of the frame and flip it occasionally and you would have most of these shots nailed. I think they are good, I just like to see some range out of photographers. I was happy to see him ribbon with the pencil shot.

Message edited by author 2005-12-08 15:59:22.
12/08/2005 03:55:33 PM · #9
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

5th place is a style, not a duplicate


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Compositionally, they are duplicates. You could draw an image on your view finder with a marker that had a face on the outside 3rd of the frame and flip it occasionally and you would have most of these shots nailed. I think they are good, I just like to see some range out of photographers.


I think Librodo's style is fantastic. But I have to say I wonder how well images of western caucasians would fair instead of the exotic that he displays.
12/08/2005 04:00:32 PM · #10
Are we so moronic to think that people are necessarily "copying". And did not themselves have the idea as an originality (sure some state they know it's been done before but many think they have a novel idea).

In truth, there is probably very few stellar shots which have never had a similar photo made.

And it is really perturbingly annoying to expect every new member to view every past entry so as to know what's been done before or not.

I understand that the same shot seen a second time will likely score lower....but can we !@#$% stop the "you should be knocked" or "they deserved what they got for copying".

Cause to me, it's awfully rude and ignorant.

Sure...the score will reflect, but to make personal comments toward the photographer I think just goes overboard.

Rest assured, giving kudos to the first person who you saw do something does not mean they were the first. And realizing that, means that you should have some leniency if someone else comes up with an idea you've already scene but that is original to them.

This doesn't mean you won't score it lower cause hey, let's face it - there is not as much "wow factor" once you know something can be done. But it does mean you lay off the artist on a personal level.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12/08/2005 04:03:47 PM · #11
Originally posted by theSaj:

Are we so moronic to think that people are necessarily "copying". And did not themselves have the idea as an originality (sure some state they know it's been done before but many think they have a novel idea).

In truth, there is probably very few stellar shots which have never had a similar photo made.

And it is really perturbingly annoying to expect every new member to view every past entry so as to know what's been done before or not.

I understand that the same shot seen a second time will likely score lower....but can we !@#$% stop the "you should be knocked" or "they deserved what they got for copying".

Cause to me, it's awfully rude and ignorant.

Sure...the score will reflect, but to make personal comments toward the photographer I think just goes overboard.

Rest assured, giving kudos to the first person who you saw do something does not mean they were the first. And realizing that, means that you should have some leniency if someone else comes up with an idea you've already scene but that is original to them.

This doesn't mean you won't score it lower cause hey, let's face it - there is not as much "wow factor" once you know something can be done. But it does mean you lay off the artist on a personal level.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Nope. If your gonna copy someone's shot, make sure you do it better. And the bottom two are way to similar not to be copies. IMO
12/08/2005 04:12:18 PM · #12
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So you think there is no way that anyone else could ever have concieved of the same idea as Scalvert?

Scalvert is an amazingly creative and talented photographer. But so are others. And well, ideas happen.

I've seen ideas I have had done on this site. OMG...who copied who's idea?

Heck, you see it in challenges all the time where people submit the same idea or concept (both thinking they're doing something unique).

And no, not everybody has looked at EVERY DPC challenge result.

(it may be in this case that it was a copy, but i think to judge the artist without inquiring is awfully rude)

************************************

I quickly perused google.com, here is what I found:

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Message edited by author 2005-12-08 16:20:50.
12/08/2005 04:14:34 PM · #13
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I try not to vote down for obvious copies but the problem is that the initial impact has been lost. Instead of thinking "wow, that looks really neat," I think "wow, that looks just like the one that Scalvert just did." I think emotional impact is a big part of photography. To make up for the loss of that initial impact, I think the technical portion really has to overcompensate - and probably has to be better than that of the "original." So I think it's rather difficult to take an exact copy, which, for the mostpart, these are, and score as highly as the first one did.
12/08/2005 04:18:41 PM · #14
Originally posted by "mk":

I try not to vote down for obvious copies but the problem is that the initial impact has been lost. Instead of thinking "wow, that looks really neat," I think "wow, that looks just like the one that Scalvert just did." I think emotional impact is a big part of photography.


And that's totally understandable. And I expect people to vote lower because of it. But I get annoyed at people who want to vote it a "1" or criticize the photographer "simply" because they've seen the idea before.

That's going beyond loss of "wow factor" and merely becoming ignorant "spite".

(This is clearly demonstrated by such comments as "get what they deserve", such a statement does not reflect a loss of "wow factor" rather it reflects an individual viewer placing the blame of their having seen the idea before solely on the artist as a fault. And that to me is just mean.)

Message edited by author 2005-12-08 16:22:16.
12/08/2005 04:28:24 PM · #15
Obviously, it is time for another challenge like this.

Or did we just have it :-)

Seriously, if you have an idea that was already presented here, do your best. There will be prejudice against you, and if you fail to meet the set standard, the voters will kill your photo. If you meet or exceed the quality, then it will still be voted lower just 'cause.

I would like to be able to try some of the photos that have been done before here, actually I did it once, only not in a noticeable way (at least nobody commented on it as such)

If you are doing a deja-vu image, be prepared to handle the mixed vote. It will be most likely accepted the same way as a nudie shot.
12/08/2005 04:29:11 PM · #16
Originally posted by theSaj:

Originally posted by "mk":

I try not to vote down for obvious copies but the problem is that the initial impact has been lost. Instead of thinking "wow, that looks really neat," I think "wow, that looks just like the one that Scalvert just did." I think emotional impact is a big part of photography.


And that's totally understandable. And I expect people to vote lower because of it. But I get annoyed at people who want to vote it a "1" or criticize the photographer "simply" because they've seen the idea before.

I also consider the possibility that the submission may be from a new member, who's never even seen the gallery of DPC Classic Images -- they may as well have come up with the idea quite as independently as the first person to submit a classic-technique to DPC. For example, John's freely stated that he'd seen the idea/technique for "Liberty and Justice" in a magazine or somewhere -- his just happened to be the first one submitted to this site. I just try to judge each image on its own merits as much as I can.
12/08/2005 04:33:35 PM · #17
there is definately a "formula" for success here, really out of the box stuff dosent usually appeal to the masses as much as the drop of water, or the macro flowers. but its ok though, those who don't shoot that stuff know it..
12/08/2005 04:38:52 PM · #18
I wont say it's true of every copied idea, but for most of the ones I saw in this challenge, they had:

a) as mk said, lost their wow factor
and
b) not been executed as well as the original

Taking for example, the ones mk posted above:
*Hatched egg: I much prefer the depth of field, lighting and asthetics (i.e. rough markings vs. even fine point pen) of the earlier version.
*Bulb: For starters, the composition of scalvert's is infinately more appealing. The glow around the moon and the addition of the stars also give it a lot more atmosphere and make it feel more real. And I really dislike the blue glow on the hand in the earth version, it seems totally unnatural and screams computer screen to me.
*Flag drops: Though I do like the lighting in the new version, I much prefer the composition and bokeh of setzler's original.

I didn't get the chance to vote on all of these, but none of them would have gotten all that great of a score from me. Even if it's a cool looking shot, it's not creative if it's a direct copy of someone else. You need to make it your own somehow (the earthbulb is the only one that even attempts to do this, and barely; and look at the egg, the composition is nearly identical). Even had these been excecuted well technically, I would not have given them the creativity points I would have given the originals as it wasn't the second photographer's creativity that created the idea (note, this is only the case in blatent copies...I know some images look similar by coincidence, but most of the ones refered to in this thread are to similar to be coincidence. If there's even a slight chance it's a coincidence, I'll give the photographer the benefit of the doubt (actually, in this challenge, I skipped voting on one photo because I was pretty sure it was a blatent copy but didn't want to nock them down if it wasn't). A well excecuted copy (a blatently obvious one) would probably get a midrange score from me, i.e. an average of a high technical score and a low creativity score.

Message edited by author 2005-12-08 16:43:20.
12/08/2005 04:41:05 PM · #19
Well, I can honestly say that Iíve never seen that egg picture on DPC before.

I saw it while surfing these images surf (but, be warned, there are some scary, crappy, rude, obnoxious, pornographic and the occasional really good image on there)

Although it is the exact same image that I saw.
And I did try to put my own twist on it, but it just looked crap in comparison.
So I blatantly plagiarized it.
And I believe the original is still superior.

And I guess that's all I've really got to say on the subject :-)
12/08/2005 04:59:49 PM · #20
Originally posted by UNCLEBRO:

Although it is the exact same image that I saw.
And I did try to put my own twist on it, but it just looked crap in comparison.
So I blatantly plagiarized it.
And I believe the original is still superior.

And I guess that's all I've really got to say on the subject :-)


You get +2 for honesty. :)
12/08/2005 05:24:55 PM · #21
I would be totally shocked if the light bulb shot wasn't a direct copy.
12/08/2005 06:02:55 PM · #22
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

I would be totally shocked if the light bulb shot wasn't a direct copy.


Caleb originally noted in the photographer's comments that he thought of the idea independently, then saw my shot before submitting (entirely possible). He edited that out after the voting was over, but I don't think it's such a big deal. Whether he thought of it himself or studied my entry for a week, Caleb's photo is unique in it own way. The top two shots in THIS challenge had at least as much in common, but they were obviously judged on their own merits.

I thought the egg entry was interesting because I recognized that it was nearly identical to Thamer's, yet voters who hadn't seen or remembered the first version left glowing comments praising the creativity and originality of the concept. I found it amusing, but Thamer might not agree.
12/08/2005 06:12:33 PM · #23
Originally posted by scalvert:

The top two shots in THIS challenge had at least as much in common, but they were obviously judged on their own merits.


That's sorta spooky until I realized they knew each other. I am surprised that two shots so similar would take 1st and 2nd. Interesting.
12/08/2005 08:26:59 PM · #24
I have copied a photo from this website.

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I didn't enter it in a challenge but it was a challenge for me. I can honestly say I lerned more from doing that image than any image I have ever taken. I applaud anyone who tries something that has been done. It shows they are wanting to learn and it should be applauded IMO. Way to go for all those that tried something that has already been done.
12/08/2005 08:28:32 PM · #25
I don't think anyone is saying not to try or there are no benefits of learning by trying...

Message edited by author 2005-12-08 20:28:52.
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