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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Free Study - What's the difference...
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12/18/2005 05:15:55 AM · #1
Originally posted by bear_music:

LOL... That's an interesting story :-)

R.


It's a small internet world eh?

12/18/2005 05:14:02 AM · #2
I like how the OP never came back to react to any of the responses.

...oh, wait---

Really I thought it would be an interesting and useful discussion - I didn't have much of a strong opinion on it. Thanks to all who contributed.
12/18/2005 05:08:32 AM · #3
LOL... That's an interesting story :-)

R.
12/18/2005 05:05:49 AM · #4
Haha...sorry I have arrived late for the party...

Someone should have told me that there was a debate going on about one of my pictures...

I originally had it in my notes that I came up with the idea for the Earth Bulb picture myself...

I had the idea of doing something like this...I got the original Idea from a photo I saw that showed someone holding a can of spray paint in front of some clouds. I got some help from a couple of people on another forum I post one. They gave me the idea for the lightbulb saying that they saw one like it on the Canon forums....welllll...right before the challenge started I saw Scalverts. And I realized that it was the same one on the Canon boards that my friends were talking about...

So...It wasn't really a copy..well it was...but inadvertantly so. Anyway...I was happy how it finished and I knew that once the challenge started I was going get slammed...

Anyways...Scalverts is better than mine:P But ya gotta learn somehow eh?
12/09/2005 12:06:31 PM · #5
Originally posted by theSaj:

Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

I would be totally shocked if the light bulb shot wasn't a direct copy.


Why, when I posted over half a dozen clipart and images of similar thought and idea.



You posted clip art of a light bulb and world concept. Big deal. The technical aspect of the shot was duplicated with an earth instead of a moon. I gave it a 4 based on it's photographic merits.
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Message edited by author 2005-12-09 12:06:47.
12/09/2005 10:33:24 AM · #6
What Saj said, and to add:
this was a free study challenge: for me it meant picking on a subject that I have seen elsewhere and trying to study the technical aspects of it and replicate it. I do not think that any entry in a study-type challenge should be called on for copying. That for me was the idea of this challenge, and props to those that managed to be innovative at the same time.

I've seen 100s of photos like mine - taken from above where people are holding different crap, and I just changed what I was holding in it. Noone commented on it in that way.

But, if this were a "breaking new ground"-type challenge, then it could have been viewed differently. Trying to replicate something that was already done, could be rightfully construed as DNMC and scored down for it.

Message edited by author 2005-12-09 10:34:48.
12/09/2005 10:12:56 AM · #7
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

I would be totally shocked if the light bulb shot wasn't a direct copy.


Why, when I posted over half a dozen clipart and images of similar thought and idea.

I think the issue at hand is people who view any second viewing of an idea as "theft" and damn the scores. Not addressing the fact that the idea they are seeing may have been original to the photographer. On top of the fact that the original they saw may indeed have been "idea theft" from another.

Theoretically, Scalvert could have seen the moonbulb done elsewhere and replicated it (very well I might add) and Caleb could have truly come up with the idea all by himself. But where as we laud Scalvert on the basis of assumption that he came up with a novel idea (when for all we know he could have just been replicating an idea he had seen) and then at the same time we damn Caleb's entry because we've seen a similar and we are so arrogant and full of ourselves and all knowing so we know without a doubt our assumption that Caleb "stole" the idea is true. And we damn his photo for it.

If that does not seem like childish arrogance than I don't know what is. I am just saying "score the photo based on it's merit" with an understanding that it may lose it's "wow factor" and score lower. Heck, after seeing 6 dozen dragonfly eyes even a good photo of dragonfly eyes loses a bit of it's "wow factor" and scores appropriately. But I'm not going to slam the photo and give it a "1" or "2" just because "JoeDiddy" entered the very first "dragonfly eye" photo on DPC. That'd be stupid and wrong.

In fact, I am amazed when I see some amazing photo that I've never seen the like of before. (ie: ladybug, unfocused flower in background, flower re-focused in rain drop). I'd never seen such a technique before. And it had a lot of wow factor for me. I scored it very high. But numerous people expressed being tired of the water drop images and how it was similar to some photographer's work. To these people it was not novel. And they scored it lower than I did. However, it was still a very well executed photo technically. So it should still receive strong technical merit. But had someone who'd seen a similar idea given the photo "1" and stated "unoriginal" - that'd be a really unfair treatment. And this is exactly what many people are doing and expressing.

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And yes, that image caused a whole hubbub of attacks and criticisms. And spurred this same debate. Very little in this world is absolutely unique in scope. And damning someoone for failing to be is lame, moronic, insert your own adjective. I know that if I had a novel idea to me and put a lot of effort in and someone told me that it was a very well done photo but since I had "obviously" stolen the idea they gave me a "1". I'd be real pissed. Just to end it...realize you are way too stupid to make a claim that something was "obviously" idea theft. We have a patent office because numerous people come up with the same ideas independently.

I guess we should expand intellectual property rights to include photographic concepts. I mean, someone had to be the first to use a round colored filter on a book to create a heart. We should make such a photograph composition the sole proprietary idea of that one individual. All others are thieves. Anyone else who does it (regardless of discovering the idea on their own) should be penalized!

*sighs*

- Saj

12/08/2005 08:28:32 PM · #8
I don't think anyone is saying not to try or there are no benefits of learning by trying...

Message edited by author 2005-12-08 20:28:52.
12/08/2005 08:26:59 PM · #9
I have copied a photo from this website.

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I didn't enter it in a challenge but it was a challenge for me. I can honestly say I lerned more from doing that image than any image I have ever taken. I applaud anyone who tries something that has been done. It shows they are wanting to learn and it should be applauded IMO. Way to go for all those that tried something that has already been done.
12/08/2005 06:12:33 PM · #10
Originally posted by scalvert:

The top two shots in THIS challenge had at least as much in common, but they were obviously judged on their own merits.


That's sorta spooky until I realized they knew each other. I am surprised that two shots so similar would take 1st and 2nd. Interesting.
12/08/2005 06:02:55 PM · #11
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

I would be totally shocked if the light bulb shot wasn't a direct copy.


Caleb originally noted in the photographer's comments that he thought of the idea independently, then saw my shot before submitting (entirely possible). He edited that out after the voting was over, but I don't think it's such a big deal. Whether he thought of it himself or studied my entry for a week, Caleb's photo is unique in it own way. The top two shots in THIS challenge had at least as much in common, but they were obviously judged on their own merits.

I thought the egg entry was interesting because I recognized that it was nearly identical to Thamer's, yet voters who hadn't seen or remembered the first version left glowing comments praising the creativity and originality of the concept. I found it amusing, but Thamer might not agree.
12/08/2005 05:24:55 PM · #12
I would be totally shocked if the light bulb shot wasn't a direct copy.
12/08/2005 04:59:49 PM · #13
Originally posted by UNCLEBRO:

Although it is the exact same image that I saw.
And I did try to put my own twist on it, but it just looked crap in comparison.
So I blatantly plagiarized it.
And I believe the original is still superior.

And I guess that's all I've really got to say on the subject :-)


You get +2 for honesty. :)
12/08/2005 04:41:05 PM · #14
Well, I can honestly say that Iíve never seen that egg picture on DPC before.

I saw it while surfing these images surf (but, be warned, there are some scary, crappy, rude, obnoxious, pornographic and the occasional really good image on there)

Although it is the exact same image that I saw.
And I did try to put my own twist on it, but it just looked crap in comparison.
So I blatantly plagiarized it.
And I believe the original is still superior.

And I guess that's all I've really got to say on the subject :-)
12/08/2005 04:38:52 PM · #15
I wont say it's true of every copied idea, but for most of the ones I saw in this challenge, they had:

a) as mk said, lost their wow factor
and
b) not been executed as well as the original

Taking for example, the ones mk posted above:
*Hatched egg: I much prefer the depth of field, lighting and asthetics (i.e. rough markings vs. even fine point pen) of the earlier version.
*Bulb: For starters, the composition of scalvert's is infinately more appealing. The glow around the moon and the addition of the stars also give it a lot more atmosphere and make it feel more real. And I really dislike the blue glow on the hand in the earth version, it seems totally unnatural and screams computer screen to me.
*Flag drops: Though I do like the lighting in the new version, I much prefer the composition and bokeh of setzler's original.

I didn't get the chance to vote on all of these, but none of them would have gotten all that great of a score from me. Even if it's a cool looking shot, it's not creative if it's a direct copy of someone else. You need to make it your own somehow (the earthbulb is the only one that even attempts to do this, and barely; and look at the egg, the composition is nearly identical). Even had these been excecuted well technically, I would not have given them the creativity points I would have given the originals as it wasn't the second photographer's creativity that created the idea (note, this is only the case in blatent copies...I know some images look similar by coincidence, but most of the ones refered to in this thread are to similar to be coincidence. If there's even a slight chance it's a coincidence, I'll give the photographer the benefit of the doubt (actually, in this challenge, I skipped voting on one photo because I was pretty sure it was a blatent copy but didn't want to nock them down if it wasn't). A well excecuted copy (a blatently obvious one) would probably get a midrange score from me, i.e. an average of a high technical score and a low creativity score.

Message edited by author 2005-12-08 16:43:20.
12/08/2005 04:33:35 PM · #16
there is definately a "formula" for success here, really out of the box stuff dosent usually appeal to the masses as much as the drop of water, or the macro flowers. but its ok though, those who don't shoot that stuff know it..
12/08/2005 04:29:11 PM · #17
Originally posted by theSaj:

Originally posted by "mk":

I try not to vote down for obvious copies but the problem is that the initial impact has been lost. Instead of thinking "wow, that looks really neat," I think "wow, that looks just like the one that Scalvert just did." I think emotional impact is a big part of photography.


And that's totally understandable. And I expect people to vote lower because of it. But I get annoyed at people who want to vote it a "1" or criticize the photographer "simply" because they've seen the idea before.

I also consider the possibility that the submission may be from a new member, who's never even seen the gallery of DPC Classic Images -- they may as well have come up with the idea quite as independently as the first person to submit a classic-technique to DPC. For example, John's freely stated that he'd seen the idea/technique for "Liberty and Justice" in a magazine or somewhere -- his just happened to be the first one submitted to this site. I just try to judge each image on its own merits as much as I can.
12/08/2005 04:28:24 PM · #18
Obviously, it is time for another challenge like this.

Or did we just have it :-)

Seriously, if you have an idea that was already presented here, do your best. There will be prejudice against you, and if you fail to meet the set standard, the voters will kill your photo. If you meet or exceed the quality, then it will still be voted lower just 'cause.

I would like to be able to try some of the photos that have been done before here, actually I did it once, only not in a noticeable way (at least nobody commented on it as such)

If you are doing a deja-vu image, be prepared to handle the mixed vote. It will be most likely accepted the same way as a nudie shot.
12/08/2005 04:18:41 PM · #19
Originally posted by "mk":

I try not to vote down for obvious copies but the problem is that the initial impact has been lost. Instead of thinking "wow, that looks really neat," I think "wow, that looks just like the one that Scalvert just did." I think emotional impact is a big part of photography.


And that's totally understandable. And I expect people to vote lower because of it. But I get annoyed at people who want to vote it a "1" or criticize the photographer "simply" because they've seen the idea before.

That's going beyond loss of "wow factor" and merely becoming ignorant "spite".

(This is clearly demonstrated by such comments as "get what they deserve", such a statement does not reflect a loss of "wow factor" rather it reflects an individual viewer placing the blame of their having seen the idea before solely on the artist as a fault. And that to me is just mean.)

Message edited by author 2005-12-08 16:22:16.
12/08/2005 04:14:34 PM · #20
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I try not to vote down for obvious copies but the problem is that the initial impact has been lost. Instead of thinking "wow, that looks really neat," I think "wow, that looks just like the one that Scalvert just did." I think emotional impact is a big part of photography. To make up for the loss of that initial impact, I think the technical portion really has to overcompensate - and probably has to be better than that of the "original." So I think it's rather difficult to take an exact copy, which, for the mostpart, these are, and score as highly as the first one did.
12/08/2005 04:12:18 PM · #21
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So you think there is no way that anyone else could ever have concieved of the same idea as Scalvert?

Scalvert is an amazingly creative and talented photographer. But so are others. And well, ideas happen.

I've seen ideas I have had done on this site. OMG...who copied who's idea?

Heck, you see it in challenges all the time where people submit the same idea or concept (both thinking they're doing something unique).

And no, not everybody has looked at EVERY DPC challenge result.

(it may be in this case that it was a copy, but i think to judge the artist without inquiring is awfully rude)

************************************

I quickly perused google.com, here is what I found:

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Message edited by author 2005-12-08 16:20:50.
12/08/2005 04:03:47 PM · #22
Originally posted by theSaj:

Are we so moronic to think that people are necessarily "copying". And did not themselves have the idea as an originality (sure some state they know it's been done before but many think they have a novel idea).

In truth, there is probably very few stellar shots which have never had a similar photo made.

And it is really perturbingly annoying to expect every new member to view every past entry so as to know what's been done before or not.

I understand that the same shot seen a second time will likely score lower....but can we !@#$% stop the "you should be knocked" or "they deserved what they got for copying".

Cause to me, it's awfully rude and ignorant.

Sure...the score will reflect, but to make personal comments toward the photographer I think just goes overboard.

Rest assured, giving kudos to the first person who you saw do something does not mean they were the first. And realizing that, means that you should have some leniency if someone else comes up with an idea you've already scene but that is original to them.

This doesn't mean you won't score it lower cause hey, let's face it - there is not as much "wow factor" once you know something can be done. But it does mean you lay off the artist on a personal level.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Nope. If your gonna copy someone's shot, make sure you do it better. And the bottom two are way to similar not to be copies. IMO
12/08/2005 04:00:32 PM · #23
Are we so moronic to think that people are necessarily "copying". And did not themselves have the idea as an originality (sure some state they know it's been done before but many think they have a novel idea).

In truth, there is probably very few stellar shots which have never had a similar photo made.

And it is really perturbingly annoying to expect every new member to view every past entry so as to know what's been done before or not.

I understand that the same shot seen a second time will likely score lower....but can we !@#$% stop the "you should be knocked" or "they deserved what they got for copying".

Cause to me, it's awfully rude and ignorant.

Sure...the score will reflect, but to make personal comments toward the photographer I think just goes overboard.

Rest assured, giving kudos to the first person who you saw do something does not mean they were the first. And realizing that, means that you should have some leniency if someone else comes up with an idea you've already scene but that is original to them.

This doesn't mean you won't score it lower cause hey, let's face it - there is not as much "wow factor" once you know something can be done. But it does mean you lay off the artist on a personal level.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12/08/2005 03:55:33 PM · #24
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

5th place is a style, not a duplicate


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Compositionally, they are duplicates. You could draw an image on your view finder with a marker that had a face on the outside 3rd of the frame and flip it occasionally and you would have most of these shots nailed. I think they are good, I just like to see some range out of photographers.


I think Librodo's style is fantastic. But I have to say I wonder how well images of western caucasians would fair instead of the exotic that he displays.
12/08/2005 03:50:51 PM · #25
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

5th place is a style, not a duplicate


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Compositionally, they are duplicates. You could draw an image on your view finder with a marker that had a face on the outside 3rd of the frame and flip it occasionally and you would have most of these shots nailed. I think they are good, I just like to see some range out of photographers. I was happy to see him ribbon with the pencil shot.

Message edited by author 2005-12-08 15:59:22.
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