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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Hmmm, I'm changing my mind.
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01/12/2006 05:24:41 AM · #26
I don't see why a person who can afford a Rebel would want to consider a P&S? Even with a point and shoot, you would still need to carry a tripod, and if you are a serious photographer, you would still need to carry a couple of filters and maybe a lens hood, an extra battery, memory cards... you get the idea.

Even with a point and shoot, it is not possible to 'just grab the camera and go'. I have a FZ20, and I always carry everything with me, not just the camera. Marco lenses, filters, charger, lens cleaner, tripod etc. If I get a dSLR, I will be used to carrying stuff.

So please get a Rebel and not a FZ30 or whatever else you are considering if you can. It will go a long way and there will be lots of room to expand and improve.
01/12/2006 06:14:37 AM · #27
I agree heather... I went to dpreview and did a side by side of all these cameras...
and found interesting infomation...
the 815 had the lowest user rating with the 8080 and the s9000 and the FZ30 having the best user ratings.

Originally posted by HBunch:

Lots of neat info in this thread. I'm not upgrading or anything, heck, I don't know how to use the one I've got (oly e10), but it was fun to read anyway.


Message edited by author 2006-01-12 06:29:51.
01/12/2006 07:35:57 AM · #28
Originally posted by legalbeagle:


If you bought the Digital Rebel with 17-85mm IS kit, you would never *have* to take the lens off and could treat it in exactly the same way. It would have a slightly better focal range than the pro815. You would have all the functionality (and more) of the pro815 and the other cameras mentioned here, and would have the option of other lenses and accessories (which you need never explore if it is not relevant to you).

Clear and concise said legalbeagle, Rose8699 you should be able to make right decision just on this observation.

Message edited by author 2006-01-12 07:37:32.
01/12/2006 07:45:56 AM · #29
I have just looked at the pro815 spec and I was slightly mislead by BearMusic's earlier post on that camera's range: the 35mm equivalent to its maximum range is 28 - 420 mm equiv. (15x zoom), F2.2-4.6. This is not v wide angle, but it is quite a long zoom. You could get a 28-300mm (45mm-480mm equiv) single lens (Tamron do a cheapish one), but that range is quite hard to replicate in a single lens.

However, the quality difference (esp at high ISOs) evidenced here would convince me:

//www.dpreview.com/reviews/samsungpro815/page14.asp

Plus the 18 second write time for a RAW file is unholy!
01/12/2006 08:35:37 AM · #30
Originally posted by ignite:

I don't see why a person who can afford a Rebel would want to consider a P&S? Even with a point and shoot, you would still need to carry a tripod, and if you are a serious photographer, you would still need to carry a couple of filters and maybe a lens hood, an extra battery, memory cards... you get the idea.

Even with a point and shoot, it is not possible to 'just grab the camera and go'. I have a FZ20, and I always carry everything with me, not just the camera. Marco lenses, filters, charger, lens cleaner, tripod etc. If I get a dSLR, I will be used to carrying stuff.

So please get a Rebel and not a FZ30 or whatever else you are considering if you can. It will go a long way and there will be lots of room to expand and improve.


For the past 3 months I have been told the same. "Got DSLR, this way you can upgrade". And I totally see that and figure anything else would be a rip off in the long run. However, I really have to focus on what I do for photography and what I like to shoot and what I have access to shoot.

To list a few..

1. I haven't traveled outside of an hour in over 5 years.
2. What I shoot is really pretty close shots. I don't really need to find that bird in the marsh (to answer bear_music), as most birds I shoot in Florida are in your face birds. They are not very lucid to find. For instance, beach birds of all types are just there, and the pond birds are just there, and the blue jays, cardinals, etc are naturally at my back window on a daily basis. I really don't intend to hike through the woods, go up mountinous regions, or as poor shutterpug...LOL...fall through thin ice while trying for the perfect waterfall shot. Pretty much where I live, everything I wan is at my fingertips. I just don't want to lug around a full case of equipment. When those flocks of night birds are ready to fly, I just want to look up and flick the button. I don't want to say "birds wait! I need to fix something first!". LOL...

Besides, I am used to point and shoots. I do really just throw it in my purse. I mentioned the tripod, but rarely would use it unless I am doing a pre-planned trip to a city area and for a night shot on lets say a 30 shutter speed at 800iso, which can be done with the pro815. There is not more than one photo in my entire port here in which I used a tripod. And my camera has no stabalizer, so I think I am pretty good at that.

3. As for being noisey, I take that you mean the photo it takes and not the camera itself being noisy? I know the pro815 specifies in the review that it prides itself on having less noisy shots.

4. For upgrading later, this may never be an option for me. SS checks don't exactly afford you the chance, not even in savings, to upgrade lenses, etc. I have found recently that filters are most likely all I would need - whether to beef up a macro, or star effects rather than wide shutter speeds or however it is done in camera, to shine minimizers with the poloarizer. Yesterday I just went out and literally just held the filter in front of my camera and took the shot, and they came out wonderful. No tripod, no attachments, just holding it. At only $20 to $40 a pop for Cokins, I think that is far more of a better approach then paying over $400 for a lense I may not need but once in a blue moon, whereas with the filters, I can pop them to use or not at any given moment.

Taking all of this into consideration, that is why I would prefer the point and shoot over the more expensive prospects of the dslr at this time. It is for what I shoot. I really don't travel the world, and I find there is a lot that I won't need with the rebel. As a matter of fact, my sisterinlaw owns the rebel. It is in a huge case with accessories. She just whips out the camera itself and starts shooting. She can't (or doesn't) view what she took as she took it in LCD to even at least get an idea of what came out. I know not to rely on the LCD myself, but I like the instant seeing of the shot without going to settngs to look. She just leaves everything on auto, and the only difference between her shots and mine of the same subject was the auto settings worked better than all the manual manipulation I had to do, in which during that time, I lost shots as she kept shooting.

With the pro815, I can DO auto, but I can also have the shots come out as hers too, knowing what I am doing more now.

Legalbeagle, I read your post, and I think those examples are rather severe. LOL....My 3800 takes better shots then what they portrayed of the pro815 on that site..LOL, and I think they really didn't seem to put much into the settings of the pro815 in those examples. The pro815 review I read, said even at the high iso's the pro815 takes great shots with little to no noise.

I will check into others mentioned here and make a decision and see if I see anything that pops out at me. Mostly what I like to see is the photo examples of each, but NOT in that way that link gives them. LOL....

Rose

01/12/2006 08:55:15 AM · #31
I think the camera your looking at sucks to be honest with you. If not the Rebel XT I'd probably go with powershot pro1. Do a comparison.
01/12/2006 09:02:02 AM · #32
I missed a few posts, but I am going to take everything said here into consideration and review each camera mentioned before deciding. I have physically handled the rebel, and like it alot. I haven't handled any of the others and that alone could make the difference. I will see.

*And Di, nice to see you here. I hope we can get to know each other better*

Rose
01/12/2006 09:02:29 AM · #33
It becomes a personal choice. I think with your situation and what you want a P&S would fit your needs ideally. I cannot tell you what I would do, because my situation might be different (buy a dSLR). Its all about what fits in your needs and your price range. Not just today, but tomorrow.

With that said, I think you could still get a 350d for almost the same $$ as you are looking to get one of those upper end P&S. (you were talking $900). Then just use the kit lens. IF you happen to decide you want to upgrade, you can (technically anywas, $$ is always another question). Just a thought
01/12/2006 09:03:21 AM · #34
Originally posted by notonline:

I think the camera your looking at sucks to be honest with you. If not the Rebel XT I'd probably go with powershot pro1. Do a comparison.


WOW, thats pretty severe. You really think it sucks? Well, I have considered that hardly anyone here uses it, so that didn't say much for it. I will add the powershot1 to my list of those to look over though. I will do a comparison, thank you!

Rose
01/12/2006 09:05:44 AM · #35
Originally posted by hutch699:

It becomes a personal choice. I think with your situation and what you want a P&S would fit your needs ideally. I cannot tell you what I would do, because my situation might be different (buy a dSLR). Its all about what fits in your needs and your price range. Not just today, but tomorrow.

With that said, I think you could still get a 350d for almost the same $$ as you are looking to get one of those upper end P&S. (you were talking $900). Then just use the kit lens. IF you happen to decide you want to upgrade, you can (technically anywas, $$ is always another question). Just a thought


This is also a thought. There isn't much difference between the canon rebel price and the upper end p&s. And I can just throw on filters....so...geesh. This is a hard decision for me. It is worth thinking over for the extra $100 or so. One never knows. I could win the Florida lotto, and then really go nutz with accessories! ;)

Rose
01/12/2006 09:07:51 AM · #36
Originally posted by Rose8699:

One never knows. I could win the Florida lotto, and then really go nutz with accessories! ;)

Rose


Then you could adopt me!!!! MOM!!!! ;-)~
01/12/2006 09:10:31 AM · #37
Originally posted by hutch699:

Originally posted by Rose8699:

One never knows. I could win the Florida lotto, and then really go nutz with accessories! ;)

Rose


Then you could adopt me!!!! MOM!!!! ;-)~


' . substr('//i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/ssp-enhance/lol.gif', strrpos('//i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/ssp-enhance/lol.gif', '/') + 1) . '
01/12/2006 09:11:23 AM · #38
Rose,

It sounds as though you are pretty sold on the pro815, and I am not trying to change your mind - just trying to help. The main thing I would say is that you should check the review you refer to was definitely for this camera: my reason is that you thought it had IS built on (it does not) and you suggest in your last post it could do an ISO 800 shot, when it has a max of ISO 400. The stats are here:

//www.dpreview.com/reviews/samsungpro815/

Other points here are just to clear up some possible misconceptions.

The page I referred you earlier to showed 100% crops of a sample image at ISO 400 (pro815) and ISO 1600 (350XT). Image noise levels of the pro815 are not high compared to other p&s cameras, but there is a world of difference when compared to the DSLRs (per the test images).

You do not have to buy more than one lens for a DSLR (and can use filters in the same way as you describe). In terms of size and weight, the pro815 will often be slightly bigger and heavier given its huge zoom lens (depending on lens on 350) (from dpreview: "It's built - to put it politely - like a brick outhouse, and at just under a kilogram is considerably heavier than most entry-level SLRs, due in no small part to the large lens."). It would be easier to whip out the 350 with a 28-105 lens.

There are a few genuine-seeming customer reviews here - very mixed. If you don't mind using a tripod for long shots and don't want to use ISO above 100 or 200, many of the camera's limitations go away and it offers a lot for the $:

//www.dpreview.com/reviews/read_opinions.asp?prodkey=samsung_pro815

Message edited by author 2006-01-12 09:11:48.
01/12/2006 09:32:41 AM · #39
Hi Rose --

It sounds as if you have a good idea of what you are hunting for, but I would just like to mention the Canon PowerShot "S" line. I have a PowerShot S60 and love it. It's got 5 megapixels (that was a lot when I bought it two years ago) and almost everything the big cameras have and it fits into my purse! They are up to the S80 (8 megapixels) now.
I confess that I did break down and get a Canon D20, and that is what I mostly use these days, but if I'm going out and don't want to drag along a great big black thing, the S60 goes with me.

The only thing I really didn't like about the S60 was the fact that you can't use any filters on it, and you can't get any real bokeh because it's got a really short focal length.

Germaine
01/12/2006 09:33:14 AM · #40
I think it mostly depends on your needs and goals.
The most stunning pictures I see here and other photography sites, invariable are taken with a DSLR using apertures and shutter speeds that are simply not possible with even the most sophisticated non DSLR camera. What´s the difference? The glass!!
Lenses are what really makes the difference, and the only way to play with them is through DSLR.
If you can afford it, go with it. You won't regret the speed and sharpness of a DSLR with a good lens.
If money and making pricey investments once or twice a year is an issue, then buy one of the cameras that are being discussed here.

Message edited by author 2006-01-12 09:33:35.
01/12/2006 09:40:07 AM · #41
I went to dpreview, and did a side by side
here are teh results. Getting information on cameras from an independant site is important also. You'll find the information next to other cameras, and getting users opinions.
01/12/2006 09:43:45 AM · #42
Ok, I am really now fenced, but I have two legs hanging over the side where the Canon Rebel XT lies again. LOL....

I think I WILL go with the Canon now. At least I have handled that one, and I know I loved how it handled. Maybe I was just a bit frightened on not being able to switch my mind over fast enough from a P&S to a DSLR.

I'm one that likes to do things without that much complication when it comes to enjoyment. For example, I would rather make a coaster out of yarn then wait for the completion of an entire sweater. So the idea of fiddling with controls before I can get a good shot annoys me. I don't want to lose my interest in photography by having this annoyance. However, I have handled the Canon, and most I do I can do with it and basically treat is as a point and shoot. Along with that, I will have the solice of knowing that if I want to delve deeper and feel the need to do something dramatic, I will also have that option.

So, I am back to the Rebel again. LOL....I guess all it depends on now is budget come IRS refund time! :)

OH by the way, on the ISO, the pro815 has the ability to go to 800. It will depend on settings used though. It's normal is a 400, but it can go to 800, and manually be set for that from what I read.

Rose

Message edited by author 2006-01-12 09:47:09.
01/12/2006 10:22:28 AM · #43
Originally posted by Rose8699:

OH by the way, on the ISO, the pro815 has the ability to go to 800. It will depend on settings used though. It's normal is a 400, but it can go to 800, and manually be set for that from what I read.

Rose


Yea but look at the quality at iso 400 compared to 1600 for the rebel

edit to add: I didn't think it was harsh but more honest then anything.

Message edited by author 2006-01-12 10:26:00.
01/12/2006 10:24:11 AM · #44
Originally posted by Rose8699:

most I do I can do with it and basically treat is as a point and shoot.


There is not too much shame in sticking to the the green square and P modes!
01/12/2006 12:08:21 PM · #45
Originally posted by legalbeagle:

I have just looked at the pro815 spec and I was slightly mislead by BearMusic's earlier post on that camera's range:


The camera I was referring to is the new Sony, not the pro815. That one underhelms me.

R.
01/12/2006 12:11:32 PM · #46
Originally posted by Bear_Music:



The camera I was referring to is the new Sony, not the pro815. That one underhelms me.

R.


My mistake. Apologies.
01/12/2006 01:13:50 PM · #47
Rose, I'm going to throw in my suggestions too.

For P&S, I'm going to suggest you check in this order:

1 Sony R1
2 Panasonic FZ20 (2nd hand)
3 Panasonic FZ30
4 Canon Powershot S2

1 Good> The sony will give amazing pictures in a single package and really can hold its own against a DSLR for image quality. It will suit you very well up to the limit of its range <Bad< It's very costly and has some minor performance issues. It also tries to encourage you to use more expensive Sony memory cards. It has a bit of an odd setup for the LCD. *** It has an Electronic Viewfinder.

2 Good> The FZ20 is a little cheaper and is an excellent little P&S. It has a focusing ring for manual focus (something I constantly curse my S2 for lacking). It has good controls and good responsiveness. It is relatively small and compact. Noise profile is actually reportedly less than the more recent FZ30. <Bad< Not much bad to say about it, but don't think for a second that any mini-sensor P&S will ever be able to hold a candle to what a DSLR can do in anything OTHER THAN perfect conditions. Expect to see noise showing up even in ISO 50 or 100 shots in shadows (albeit very slight) Also uses an EVF. Best of the actual P&S though in overall bang for your buck.

3. Good> Slight improvements over the FZ20 in most areas. Excellent choice for a P&S. <Bad< Worse with noise than its predecessor. Cost is significantly more than a second hand FZ20, but improvements are marginal. Also uses an EVF.

4. Good> A fair bit cheaper than the other options. Also a decent choice. Possibly better noise profile than the FZ30 (debatable - check for yourself, at this point neither is good enough for this to be a major issue) Probably a fair step forward from the Samsung in many areas. Good aperture range on the lens. <Bad< Noise. No Focus ring.

*** I obviously own the S2, and while it's not the best and I do find noise in my shadows too, I understand its limitations would recommend it if cash is an issue. Anything below it, I wouldn't recommend. I will say that anything with a tiny sensor (including ALL P&S except the Sony R1) will basically be a fair-weather camera. If there is lots of light, you are doing fine. For the smaller cameras, I usually find that the less Megapixels, the cleaner the image. I find my sister's 4 megapixel A80 often gets less noise than my camera. On a DSLR, ISO can be tweaked downwards and even with a rather slow lens, you still have some room to play in lower light. With the P&S, as the light level drops, you need to be much more careful with ISO, forcing you to shoot slower shutter speeds. Image stabilizations helps with this a LOT (especially at telephoto). I have taken quite a few pictures at a rather long distance and I have been quite impressed with the sharpness of the lens even at full zoom. I have handheld 1/20 of a second at full zoom and got very sharp definition on hair in a dim corridor. It took 5 shots to get it right though. This is probably not possible without IS of some sort. Hence, if you really want a P&S, look above. I'm not as expert as a guy like Bear_music, by a measure of light-years, but I do go to a lot of shows and I always have my SD and CF cards with me. I look at a lot of sample pics.

***Now, as for what to do with your budget, that's up to you, but if it were up to me, I would do it this way. I am going to assume a budget of around 900 dollars.

Choice 1
Canon Digital Rebel 300D (second hand, should be able to find one for around 500 dollars US)

Kit lens - 18-55mm - cheap, not terrible lens 80$ US (depending on your deal, you might be able to get this included in the camera)
Canon 50mm F1.8 - cheap, you still want to take some stuff in the house right? This lens with the 300D cannot be touched by any P&S. 70 dollars US.
Sigma 70-300mm - cheap lens, less than 200 dollars, but will help you get that bird that is too skittish to come down to a lower part of the tree.

You are talking 850$ here plus taxes or whatever.

Choice 2

300D

Sigma 18-200mm - cheap - 369 dollars and gets the range you want. It's a bit soft at the end. Zoom range is pretty close to what the P&S gets, a little worse in the aperture, but the 300D is still pretty good in the ISO department up to around ISO 400. You also get to keep just the one lens for a grab and go solution

Total cost about 870$

Choice 3

Canon 350XT Kiss N Digital Rebel 2 lens kit (Japan model)

I don't know if you can get this, but it's a really neat option and it tempts the heck out of me (I am a fan of the cheap 18-55 as a standby until you go 10-22 Canon or 12-24 tokina). I last checked this kit at around 850 US dollars. It comes with the 18-55 USM version of the kit lens and the 55-200 lens as well. This gives you a decent pair of lenses that should cover you for a good while. You can even sell that 55-200 for a few bucks (I saw it this evening in a store selling for 175 US) and see if you can't upgrade to the 70-300 without losing too much in the process. (hrm, Kiss N? - is that Kiss Nikon?)

***

So when it comes down to it in the ballpark of 850-900 dollars, you can get something that is more versatile and much more powerful than the P&S models (I think the FZ30 is not far off this price range). You might have to be a little patient and look around for a 300D for some of these choices, but I think most people will agree that you will be happier with a DSLR than a P&S in the end. Lots of people take tons of great pics with only one or two lenses in their bag.
01/12/2006 01:29:54 PM · #48
And don't forget the option of the Nikon D50 or one of the other baby SLRs - they are a bit cheaper than the 350 and some of them come with better lenses than the 350 kit lens, getting you off to a better start.
01/12/2006 01:38:57 PM · #49
Good point LeagalBeagle.

I would personally recommend the Konica Minolta 5D as head and shoulders above the Nikon D50 though. The lens is better (ok, arguably), has a better range, and the camera has a form of Anti-shake on it that is really great especially for someone who is likely to shoot with only one lens

Nikon D50 - 18-55mm lens (reportedly very average - similar to Canon's)
Nikon D70 - 18-70mm lens (reportedly very good)
Konica Minolta 5D - 18-70mm lens with circular (7 blade?) aperture (reported to be good, possibly not as good as the Nikon 18-70, but probably better than the Nikon or Canon 18-55)

Please feel free to correct me anywhere here.

If you went with the KM 5D, you would only need one more lens, perhaps the sub 200 dollar 70-300mm Sigma that would automatically benefit from the Anti-shake from the body... That's wicked kit.

Message edited by author 2006-01-12 22:09:00.
01/12/2006 01:41:46 PM · #50
Originally posted by legalbeagle:

And don't forget the option of the Nikon D50 or one of the other baby SLRs - they are a bit cheaper than the 350 and some of them come with better lenses than the 350 kit lens, getting you off to a better start.

Nice to see a Canon user recommending Nikon. Have you seen the light? :)
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