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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Followed the rules and still disqualified !!
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02/02/2006 03:50:32 PM · #201
Look at the words you're using in your argument and you'll realize you're wrong. You're saying "I Consider ..", "I think .."

You shouldn't be judging and DQ'ing photos based on what you consider, think or like, but based on what the published rules says.

What you think or consider should be either kept for yourself, or become a rule and make people aware of it before you use it as a basis for a DQ.

Anyway, I am sorry I couldn't read your mind before the challenge. Dumb me I read the rules !!!
Originally posted by muckpond:


i consider a major element to be something that you mention when describing the photo. however you describe sam's photo, you would probably comment on the blur or the motion effect or what have you.

to that end, if it's major enough to be in the description of the photo, i consider that a major element. i don't think a "major element" has to be something literally captured in the frame; rather, i think that effects/filters/techniques/pixelmovements/whatever that are ADDED in the post-processing can be elements as well.


02/02/2006 03:52:04 PM · #202
NM

Message edited by author 2006-02-02 15:52:44.
02/02/2006 03:52:48 PM · #203
Originally posted by Gordon:

My problem with this is you are defining 'photography' as essentially everything that happens up until the shutter opens and then closes again.


Nobody's saying that post processing isn't important, but shouldn't an entry in a photo contest basically look like the scene you took a photo of?
02/02/2006 03:53:50 PM · #204
You're saying that the amazing work that Heida does using levels and burn and dodge, look any close to the original?

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Gordon:

My problem with this is you are defining 'photography' as essentially everything that happens up until the shutter opens and then closes again.


Nobody's saying that post processing isn't important, but shouldn't an entry in a photo contest basically look like the scene you took a photo of?
02/02/2006 03:54:24 PM · #205
Originally posted by samanwar:

Look at the words you're using in your argument and you'll realize you're wrong. You're saying "I Consider ..", "I think .."


Read a supreme court decision some time. Or in particular, read a dissenting opinion.

The whole point of a final committee to interpret rules is just that - they have to be interpretted.

Message edited by author 2006-02-02 15:54:48.
02/02/2006 03:56:39 PM · #206
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Gordon:

My problem with this is you are defining 'photography' as essentially everything that happens up until the shutter opens and then closes again.


Nobody's saying that post processing isn't important, but shouldn't an entry in a photo contest basically look like the scene you took a photo of?


Plenty of people say post processing isn't important, on a daily basis.

Why should an entry in a photo contest basically look like the scene you took a photo of ? It should if you think that the bit in the camera and with the shutter is more important than the post processing. It doesn't have to, if you don't think that.

Ansel Adams is a fine example in this respect. Many of his final images look very little like the scenes. His most famous, moonrise at Hernandez had basically a white sky in the original, which he turned black in the final print.
02/02/2006 03:57:32 PM · #207
Originally posted by samanwar:

You're saying that the amazing work that Heida does using levels and burn and dodge, look any close to the original?


Good PS work can certainly make a big difference in the impact of the "print," but the clouds and all the other items in her scenes were already there.
02/02/2006 03:58:40 PM · #208
Originally posted by Gordon:

His most famous, moonrise at Hernandez had basically a white sky in the original, which he turned black in the final print.


You could do that here, too. You just couldn't draw in the moon.
02/02/2006 04:00:40 PM · #209
Originally posted by Gordon:

.. flying carpet shots are fine examples - so the photographers printed out their photoshop layers and stuck them on/ under their subjects and then rephotographed it - is that suddenly better, more ethical, a better learning experience, etc than just doing it in photoshop like most sane people would do these days ?

Oh YES, it is WAY better!!!!!

I admire Shannon's ingenuity, creativity and skill in pulling this off.

Had it been done via photoshop, I would have just shrugged it off as yet another trick that a lot of people can do within minutes.
02/02/2006 04:01:28 PM · #210
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Gordon:

My problem with this is you are defining 'photography' as essentially everything that happens up until the shutter opens and then closes again.


Nobody's saying that post processing isn't important, but shouldn't an entry in a photo contest basically look like the scene you took a photo of?

Thank You.

Edit to add withone major exception: graphicfunk
He's in world of his own....
:D

Message edited by author 2006-02-02 16:07:35.
02/02/2006 04:01:33 PM · #211
So now you're saying that it is okay if the final processed photo looked so much different than the original? Because I can swear I heard this as one of the reasons behind the DQ !!

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Gordon:

His most famous, moonrise at Hernandez had basically a white sky in the original, which he turned black in the final print.


You could do that here, too. You just couldn't draw in the moon.
02/02/2006 04:03:03 PM · #212
Originally posted by samanwar:

So now you're saying that it is okay if the final processed photo looked so much different than the original?


Color shifts (white to black, in this case) have always been allowed.
02/02/2006 04:09:50 PM · #213
Think of it this way, (as I do)this is a digital photography challenge. Anything that can be done within a darkroom is likely legal. Colorshifts, etc fall into that, including over certain areas of the image.

That being said, the motion blur on the background, without effecting the birds, makes it really difficult for me to feel that it's legal, and side with the decision to DQ. If you want to try to explain to me how it was done in the darkroom, I'd be more than happy to change my mind.
02/02/2006 04:12:18 PM · #214
Originally posted by Beetle:

Originally posted by Gordon:

.. flying carpet shots are fine examples - so the photographers printed out their photoshop layers and stuck them on/ under their subjects and then rephotographed it - is that suddenly better, more ethical, a better learning experience, etc than just doing it in photoshop like most sane people would do these days ?

Oh YES, it is WAY better!!!!!

I admire Shannon's ingenuity, creativity and skill in pulling this off.

Had it been done via photoshop, I would have just shrugged it off as yet another trick that a lot of people can do within minutes.


That's the problem with letting photographers vote on the entries ;) They care more about how it was done than what it looks like. I only mean this slightly tongue in cheek. Photographers are about the worst audience for photos. I much prefer getting feedback from people who can look at the image for what it is, not how it was made.

In this case, the ingenuity, creativity and skill that was demonstrated was working around the arbitary rules on dpc. It could have equally been done against a white sheet of paper and the scene dropped in in photoshop. Same photo. Same end result. Less environmental impact ;)

Message edited by author 2006-02-02 16:15:17.
02/02/2006 04:13:30 PM · #215
Originally posted by eckoe:

Think of it this way, (as I do)this is a digital photography challenge. Anything that can be done within a darkroom is likely legal. Colorshifts, etc fall into that, including over certain areas of the image.

That being said, the motion blur on the background, without effecting the birds, makes it really difficult for me to feel that it's legal, and side with the decision to DQ. If you want to try to explain to me how it was done in the darkroom, I'd be more than happy to change my mind.


Zoom the enlarger during the printing, combined with a mask or use a distorted lens in the enlarger ala lensbaby optics.

Message edited by author 2006-02-02 16:15:57.
02/02/2006 04:15:25 PM · #216
Originally posted by eckoe:

Think of it this way, (as I do)this is a digital photography challenge. Anything that can be done within a darkroom is likely legal. Colorshifts, etc fall into that, including over certain areas of the image.

That being said, the motion blur on the background, without effecting the birds, makes it really difficult for me to feel that it's legal, and side with the decision to DQ. If you want to try to explain to me how it was done in the darkroom, I'd be more than happy to change my mind.


Where in the Rules does it says that if you can digitally do what you can't do in a darkroom you will be disqualified?? This is exactly my point, everyone inlcuding the SC are judging based on their opinions where they should be adhering to the written rules.
02/02/2006 04:15:41 PM · #217
Originally posted by Gordon:

That's the problem with letting photographers vote on the entries ;) They care more about how it was done than what it looks like. I only mean this slightly tongue in cheek. Photographers are about the worst audience for photos. I much prefer getting feedback from people who can look at the image for what it is, not how it was made.

LOL, that's true enough. The "others" are sooooooo much easier to please and impress !
02/02/2006 04:16:15 PM · #218
Originally posted by Gordon:

That's the problem with letting photographers vote on the entries ;) They care more about how it was done than what it looks like. I only mean this slightly tongue in cheek. Photographers are about the worst audience for photos. I much prefer getting feedback from people who can look at the image for what it is, not how it was made.


Very true, I agree with that!
02/02/2006 04:16:33 PM · #219
Originally posted by Gordon:


This flat out doesn't make sense. Why blame the tools ?



Because then we have black and white rules. If we want shades of gray then we should all shut up and just let the SC vote on things. If we want clear rules, we need to include and exclude things with the least amount of subjectivity possible.

As far as listing other programs etc, it is pretty clear what is a comparable filter. This is plenty practical as I'm sure 90% of post processing people use a photoshop derivative or PSP.

I'm only trying to come up with clear rules to be followed. Subjective works as well, but is much messier and seems to lead to big long threads like this.
02/02/2006 04:16:52 PM · #220
Originally posted by Beetle:

Originally posted by Gordon:

That's the problem with letting photographers vote on the entries ;) They care more about how it was done than what it looks like. I only mean this slightly tongue in cheek. Photographers are about the worst audience for photos. I much prefer getting feedback from people who can look at the image for what it is, not how it was made.

LOL, that's true enough. The "others" are sooooooo much easier to please and impress !


No, actually that's entirely the opposite of what I mean.
02/02/2006 04:18:12 PM · #221
Originally posted by Gordon:


Zoom the enlarger during the printing, combined with a mask or use a distorted lens in the enlarger ala lensbaby optics.


Yes.. I agree with that. It would be a tedious task, but could be done. You'd need two masks to keep the bg from getting too dark, though.
02/02/2006 04:18:23 PM · #222
Originally posted by eckoe:

Think of it this way, (as I do)this is a digital photography challenge. Anything that can be done within a darkroom is likely legal. Colorshifts, etc fall into that, including over certain areas of the image.

That being said, the motion blur on the background, without effecting the birds, makes it really difficult for me to feel that it's legal, and side with the decision to DQ. If you want to try to explain to me how it was done in the darkroom, I'd be more than happy to change my mind.


Oh, one more thing, can you simulate the Unsharp Mask in a darkroom? Just wondering ..
02/02/2006 04:19:06 PM · #223
Originally posted by Gordon:


Zoom the enlarger during the printing, combined with a mask.

I have done exactly that, about 30 years ago.

Zooming the enlarger and moving the mask are difficult to acheive to get the desired effect, as they need to move at different rates. Wasted a LOT of paper getting it right....

Message edited by author 2006-02-02 16:20:01.
02/02/2006 04:21:45 PM · #224
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by samanwar:

So now you're saying that it is okay if the final processed photo looked so much different than the original?


Color shifts (white to black, in this case) have always been allowed.


Unless some sign was in the background then you get a DQ...for removing a major element.

That's the whole point. The SC's judging of the rules is very inconsistant.

I think printing out another piece of art ( that you created from a seperate file) to shoot as a major element in your scene is cheating. Much worse than than cloning out a soft box in the shot...

Message edited by author 2006-02-02 16:24:04.
02/02/2006 04:23:53 PM · #225
Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by Beetle:

Originally posted by Gordon:

That's the problem with letting photographers vote on the entries ;) They care more about how it was done than what it looks like. I only mean this slightly tongue in cheek. Photographers are about the worst audience for photos. I much prefer getting feedback from people who can look at the image for what it is, not how it was made.

LOL, that's true enough. The "others" are sooooooo much easier to please and impress !


No, actually that's entirely the opposite of what I mean.

"Others" being NON-photographers.... that is not what you meant ?????
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