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02/16/2006 07:18:18 PM · #1
After every challenge it's inevitable that people complain about the 1's and trolls and low votes. Winning photos can earn a score only in the high 6's and low 7's. I'm trying to figure out what the aversion is to giving a high mark.

The scale here is 1 to 10. Not 0 to 10. That means that an "average" picture mathematically is 5.5, NOT 5. If you vote 5, you are basically saying that the photo is .5 below your run of the mill photo. I know you can not actually VOTE 5.5, but think about that.

My average vote cast is 5.7551 as of right now. Seems about right, since I vote pretty evenly between photos that catch my eye in the thumbnails as being great, and ones I don't care for. I'm above the "average" of 5.5.

Just as a little amusement, I went into My Favorite Photographers and checked out the average vote cast of all the people I have as my favorites. Pretty telling stuff. I think the two most generous voters I saw were Joey Lawrence, who lots of people piss and moan about, and Roadrunner, who I think is one of the best talents here.

I'm not trying to criticize anyone but if you're one of these people, the next time your perfect shot is getting a 5 average take a look at your own voting habits. Ask yourself why after all the hundreds or even thousands of photos you've voted on, as a group they didn't even make a 5.5, or an "average, everyday" shot.
02/16/2006 07:34:57 PM · #2
Originally posted by rscorp:

...Ask yourself why after all the hundreds or even thousands of photos you've voted on, as a group they didn't even make a 5.5, or an "average, everyday" shot...


I already know the answer, it's because I'm so much better than anyone else! :P

j/k ;)
02/16/2006 08:27:16 PM · #3
I think one reason my average vote given is on the low side is because I use the full scale. I give a DNMC or photo with a lot of technical problems a 1-3. There have been challenges with my lowest score being a 3 on maybe a couple of shots, then there are challenges where quite a few are DNMC. When I look at a picture that in the 4-6 range, I ask myself, "is this an average shot". If it is, it gets a 5. Sorry, there is no 5.5, so average shots get a 5.
02/16/2006 08:39:16 PM · #4
It does not matter what the 'average' score is in the minds of the voters. If the average were 7 then people would complain about that being a low score and 5's being an insult. Since most perceive 5 as an average, just go with the flow! To those DNMC voters: It is very unlikely that your clairvoyance can overcome your narrow interpretation.
02/16/2006 08:43:15 PM · #5
if everyone's score was bumped up 1 or 2 by the SC would people be pleased?
maybe for a couple of weeks, then people would complain that their score is so far below average..
1's are annoying if you take them as a definitive look at your work..personally I see a 1 as a definitive look at an anonymous voter..what do I care?
look at the scores as part of a fun game..and look at your own work with a critical eye, taking in the various comments, which shots get a reaction, and what you are trying to do..
02/16/2006 08:51:12 PM · #6
I agree with ElGordo. As thing s stand most people are happy when they get a 6. If you've been involved in the site you appreciate what an avergae of a 6 means. The 'value' of a vote is self modifying.

I'm not a member, which means that I can't vote on the member challenges where the standard is higher. i also make sure I vote for every shot in a challenge when I vote. I don't pick or chose my voting. Personally there are some, usually one or two in a challenge, that I would prefer not to vote for - technically poor, off challenge, flat and boring. These get scored low, as they deserve to be.

I can no more understand why my last shot got some 7's, 8's, 9's and even 10's, then I can understand why it got 1's, 2's and 3's. To me it's clearly a 4 - 6 shot. Personally I think on the 6 side of the range, although the voters indicate it is around 5.
02/16/2006 09:13:16 PM · #7
Originally posted by ElGordo:

It does not matter what the 'average' score is in the minds of the voters. If the average were 7 then people would complain about that being a low score and 5's being an insult. Since most perceive 5 as an average, just go with the flow! To those DNMC voters: It is very unlikely that your clairvoyance can overcome your narrow interpretation.


You are making an assumption--we (the DNMC voters) are not clairvoyant, merely voting on what we see. If the photo is of a single red M&M on a white background in a blue challenge, then to most rational people that would not meet the challenge. Nothing narrow about that.
02/16/2006 09:26:55 PM · #8
Originally posted by chaimelle:

...we (the DNMC voters) are not clairvoyant, merely voting on what we see. If the photo is of a single red M&M on a white background in a blue challenge, then to most rational people that would not meet the challenge. Nothing narrow about that.


What if you missed something? Would you still be merely voting on what you see?
I don't know most rational people, but I know some.
They would welcome facts they do not, themselves, have.

02/16/2006 09:33:30 PM · #9
All I'm saying is, you can't argue with math. 5.5 is AVERAGE. Since you can't actually vote 5.5, maybe start thinking that 6 isn't necessarily close to a challenge WINNER.

Of course there are "doesn't meet challenge" votes, pictures that are so horrible they leave you scratching your head, etc. Those photos deserve low votes and everyone has voted that way. That's all part of the average.

But if you have voted on 5,000 or 10,000 images and your "Average Vote Cast" is a 4.2 there is no hiding the fact that you are voting well below the mathematical average vote of 5.5. And people that vote that way don't really have much room to complain then when their pic is voted low as well.
02/16/2006 09:37:32 PM · #10
Let's just add in a 0 on the left there. Then you won't have to worry about the math anymore.

Six months later, someone will be like, "why does everone vote over 5 all the time? These pictures are crap!"
02/16/2006 09:38:20 PM · #11
oh crap, i thought this was where i could complain about my low scores...
;)
02/16/2006 09:41:15 PM · #12
I can only vote on what is on my monitor. As I said, a red M&M on a white background would not meet a blue challenge IMO. Even with a title of "the blue one got away", or "my neighbor is blue" it just pushes the box too far. I use this example because it is straightforward. There are gray areas, and titles do often point me towards what the photographer might have meant. If the challenge is candy and someone enteres a shot of broccoli or blue jeans, would these meet the challenge?

This has already had several threads, and the debate goes nowhere. I must say my only complaint about low scores is when they are not accompanied by comments. I have had a few comments of not really meeting what the voter wanted in a certain challenge. I usually disagree, but at least I got a reason, and I have never complained about it.
02/16/2006 09:42:53 PM · #13
I had to go look to see what my average vote cast was

Avg Vote Cast: 6.0622 ...

I alwasy wonder if I'm not critical enough of other photos. Maybe I miss some minor technical flasws, maybe I'm a little to open to challenge specs.

Maybe, if I were more critical of others, I start seeing why my average vote recieved doesn't match my skill.

Message edited by author 2006-02-16 21:43:16.
02/16/2006 09:45:26 PM · #14
I think it would be interesting to see how many of each vote I have given. I'm not sure this should be public, but I have wondered what the breakdown of my voting pattern is.
02/16/2006 09:49:03 PM · #15
My average vote cast is below average also, but it really puzzles me that it's not lower than it is. I think I may be too generous. I do think a majority of the photos that I vote on are below average. When I look at the entire challenge in context, I probably feel that 70% of the photos are below average by my standards.

The one thing that people seem to ignore when trying to understand the votes that are cast is that you are being judged by your competition. What is their incentive to give you a high mark? If you have posted a magnificent photo, you may get a high mark on it by some voters. You may get a low mark on it by someone who wants to vote in such a way to leverage their own finishing rank. This site is a 'game'. It's not a competition to see who has the best (or most popular) artwork. Tastes are also subjective. You may not like what I like. I may not like what you like. All of these threads I see whining about scores and trying to understand them have one common thought buried in them. That thought is that since a photo finished with a blue ribbon that there is absolutely no reason that anyone should have scored it lower than x.x. That's hogwash. There have been countless situations where I have voted a blue ribbon photo at 5 or lower. That makes me a troll in some eyes... the eyes of whoever is trying to analyze the votes an image received.

My suggestion to everyone is to NOT worry about the score a photo receives. I think it's much more worthwhile to examine your finishing place in the greater scheme of things. The 'percentile' is more telling of how an image in a challenge was received.

02/16/2006 10:00:07 PM · #16
What I find puzzling are the scores of today vs the scores of say 2003. The caliber of images is much better now but getting lower scores than then. I realize that the technology has changed but I don't understand how that warrants lower scores. Maybe more images and members just means more jealousy among voters as well.



02/16/2006 10:06:02 PM · #17
Wow....there are a lot of math majors in photography :-)

Maybe less math and more art we would all be scoring above a 6 :-D

Serious though, John hit the nail on the head...you are being voted on by your competition. Most are probably not trying to leverage themselves as much as you ARE competing against their vision of the challenge and how they see your photo compared to theirs.

Since this is a learning site and a site for experimentation I would suspect that the average vote scored should be lower than average for the majority of participants.

Also, this site rewards a photographer for hitting that nice balance between technical perfection and creativity. Some photographers are extremely technical and not very creative and others are very creative but not too technical. Both types are very talented but probably will score lower than their skill level simply because the are not hitting that balance that keeps their votes high.

Woah! That made my brain hurt :-p
02/16/2006 10:12:53 PM · #18
I'm not complaining at all about the scores I receive. I don't particularly care. And I'm in full agreement with jmsetzler about ribbon winners. Everyone has their own opinion. There have been ribbon winners that I thought were rubbish, and pics that did poorly that I thought were fantastic.

But since everyone is like that, and we're voting on a LOT of images here....all I'm trying to point out is that statistically our "average" vote should be pretty damned close to a 5.5. If it's quite a bit below, we might want to ask ourselves why. That's it, nothing more.
02/16/2006 10:17:18 PM · #19
Originally posted by rscorp:


But since everyone is like that, and we're voting on a LOT of images here....all I'm trying to point out is that statistically our "average" vote should be pretty damned close to a 5.5. If it's quite a bit below, we might want to ask ourselves why. That's it, nothing more.


I disagree. I think that my average vote should be about 4.0, if even that high. I don't think that most images in challenges are worth an 'average' score of 5.5.
02/16/2006 10:19:40 PM · #20
Voting is subjectively up to each voter.
Are we beginning to become like politicians and try to sway votes? lol

by the way, photoman, you cheese is making you far too generous in voting, hehe

Message edited by author 2006-02-16 22:25:16.
02/16/2006 10:23:19 PM · #21
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by rscorp:


But since everyone is like that, and we're voting on a LOT of images here....all I'm trying to point out is that statistically our "average" vote should be pretty damned close to a 5.5. If it's quite a bit below, we might want to ask ourselves why. That's it, nothing more.


I disagree. I think that my average vote should be about 4.0, if even that high. I don't think that most images in challenges are worth an 'average' score of 5.5.


Well then maybe you should replace Simon on American idol. You're more than entitled to your opinion and all that means is that you think quite a few of the pics that come up in challenges pretty much suck. I'm not actually trying to get people to change their voting habits, just get people to see if they're maybe being as harsh as they think voters are treating THEM.
02/16/2006 10:25:10 PM · #22
I agree with jmsetzler on his post and I want to add the following from studying images and then from studying ports. Yes, I check stats because it hints roughly at voting patterns. Now, voting is not so simple so as to evaluate any one voter but here are my observations above and beyond what jmsetler posted.

It all has to do with your particular voting pattern. In reality there is not much reason to have an average vote cast lower than 5. This means that your voting pattern is usually low between 1 and 6, that is you give the good images a 6 and you think twice of giving out 7 and 8. So the average image gets a 4 or a 5. There is an occasional splash and you may cut lose with a 9.

Then there are other voters who vote from 2 to 7. Here the average image gets a 5 or 6.

Then you have the ones that go from 3 to 7 or to 8.

Now, there are as so many patterns and so many variations but many are employed.

Mt personal belief is simple. I want to give back what I am given. In other words I do not want to receive much more than what I give because I am not better nor is anybody else better then our peers in a week to week basis. Therefore, after being here a while I have come up with my system. I place my image and if it catches fire good, if it does not then I think of my next image and meanwhile fill my obligation of voting in this style and with this rationale:

Any image that I give a 5 to is going nowhere with my 5. If I give a 6 it may help the image to surface above the top 30. If I give a 7 it will surely help it as a contender for a top 10. The 8, 9 and 10's will aid a top 5. Of course, all this is provided the image I am voting on is sharing the same popularity with other voters which is not always the case.

So, my pattern is 5 to 9 with 10 reserved for very special images.

No matter what your pattern happens to be, unless you are better then your peers, then there should not be a big disparity between your votes cast and received in the long run.

Yes, a very bad image will get a 4 from me but I never go any lower.

I leave the votes of 1 to 3 to those that feel that they must vent with their votes either to teach a lesson or just to feel the power of their vote. But I want no part because it plays havoc on my average.

I am not placing voting average above other considerations, it is just that I want to do it without hurting myself because my stats are what and who I am.
02/16/2006 10:31:43 PM · #23
I've just submitted my first photo. I'm looking at the score it's getting, and because I have looked at past challenges and know a bit about what the top and bottom scores have been with some of them, I know it's not as huge a failure to get the score I'm getting as I otherwise may have thought. However, instead of leading me to be more satisfied, I am seeing my score that much further away from 10 (since the site average is what it is), and it inspires me that much more to keep improving. That, and the helpful comments I've received so far. :-)
02/16/2006 10:39:53 PM · #24
Originally posted by graphicfunk:


Any image that I give a 5 to is going nowhere with my 5. If I give a 6 it may help the image to surface above the top 30. If I give a 7 it will surely help it as a contender for a top 10. The 8, 9 and 10's will aid a
top 5. Of course, all this is provided the image I am voting on is sharing the same popularity with other voters which is not always the case.

Yes, a very bad image will get a 4 from me but I never go any lower.


That's almost exactly what I do to the number.
02/16/2006 10:43:54 PM · #25
Here lately I've been looking through the thumbnails first to see all the photos, and if I don't think that I could possibly vote on more than half of them, then I won't vote at all. A photo doesn't have to be technically perfect, but I have to really like it, it has to meet the challenge, not just be shoe-horned in by the title, and it will have to say something to me.
Am I to harsh/wanting too much out of a photo?
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