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03/07/2006 05:52:06 PM · #51
Originally posted by Beetle:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Beetle:

Originally posted by yanko:

How about just a tick box for DNMC? Take the percentage of voters that clicked on it and deduct the decimal equalvalent to the final score?

For example:

- 46% clicked the DNMC box for a specific photo.
- The final score of said photo was 5.460
- Deduct 46% or .46 from the score 5.460
- Actual score is 5.000

What about that?

NO thanks!

Photo A) a rather good photo, some minor technical issues. The photographer has spent considerable effort, thought etc on the theme, and worked within the topic and rule restrictions.

Photo B) Excellent photo, nearly flawless. The photographer totally ignored the challenge that others worked so hard to follow. This one simply entered a "free study"

Which photo should place higher? "While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly. "

Photo A needs to win, without a doubt.

There are plenty of "free for all" websites around.
Please respect the DPC system of challenges.


Ummm Photo A would do quite well under my suggestion. What's your point?


My point is that with your proposed system, photo B would end up ahead of A, or at least they'd be equal.

I'm sorry for using the sheep example again here, but in a candid PEOPLE challenge, NO sheep should do better than a PERSON.


So are you saying my proposed deduction wouldn't be ENOUGH? Because what I proposed would be a deduction that would affect Photo A and NOT Photo B.
03/07/2006 05:59:11 PM · #52
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Beetle:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Beetle:

Originally posted by yanko:



For example:

- 46% clicked the DNMC box for a specific photo.
- The final score of said photo was 5.460
- Deduct 46% or .46 from the score 5.460
- Actual score is 5.000

What about that?

NO thanks!



Ummm Photo A would do quite well under my suggestion. What's your point?


My point is that with your proposed system, photo B would end up ahead of A, or at least they'd be equal.

I'm sorry for using the sheep example again here, but in a candid PEOPLE challenge, NO sheep should do better than a PERSON.


So are you saying my proposed deduction wouldn't be ENOUGH? Because what I proposed would be a deduction that would affect Photo A and NOT Photo B.


I think its a terrible idea - you are simply trying to force everyone to conform to the most common interpretation of the theme.

Message edited by author 2006-03-07 18:00:13.
03/07/2006 05:59:36 PM · #53
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Thanx, Zeus and Falc, maybe we can help keep this insanity from taking hold :-)
...


"Insanity" is a little strong - my original thought was to leave things alone too, but I see value in KiwiPix's position that there might be a way to provide better feedback to the photographer and still preserve the various integrities of the system etc. etc.

GeneralE points out this is what the comment area is for - but it doesn't seem to get used as much as many would like.

What about (and I'm sure this has been suggested many times before) a secondary set of boxes to rate technical merit, emotional impact, or another category or two - not with numbers, but a simple "Excellent", "Satisfactory", or "Needs Improvement"? The main 1-10 score would be the only thing that would count, the other categories would be 100% optional.
03/07/2006 06:03:57 PM · #54
Originally posted by fotomann forever:


Or, I may have gotten two 1's from a single voter. Because, once you offend someone, they are very unlikely to make any good judgement on a photo.

I feel a lot of voters would feel that under a two scale rating system, they now have 2 1's to give if a photo offends them for any reason. The technicals would thus be moot. AND, even if the offense were for an Actual DNMC (which a lot of people feel strongly about) they are going to double punish a photo,


Yes you are probably right - some voters will double punish a photo they find offensive. Then again, when I am voting I give some low scores to some great photos because they DNMC (in my opinion - I'm the voter after all)

If there was a seperate DNMC button I would be able to give the image a 10 but tick the DNMC button - this will tell the photographer what he did wrong....

This is a reflection of real life - if you are given an assigment by a client and produce some techincally and asthetically stunning images that are not what the client asked for they are NOT likely to be impressed - despite the fabulous quality the images are likely to be useless from their point of view.
03/07/2006 06:07:15 PM · #55
Part of the challenge in this web-site is that you only have one week to come up with a photo idea. Were there to be any of the ideas proposed here in effect, someone could spend months perfecting the composition of a shot, testing editing techniques, until they discover the perfect amalgamation of the two. With a specific topic in place, it tests your imagination and your photography skills working under a deadline. If you want to create a work of art, you always have a portfolio.
03/07/2006 06:09:52 PM · #56
Originally posted by Falc:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Beetle:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Beetle:

Originally posted by yanko:



For example:

- 46% clicked the DNMC box for a specific photo.
- The final score of said photo was 5.460
- Deduct 46% or .46 from the score 5.460
- Actual score is 5.000

What about that?

NO thanks!



Ummm Photo A would do quite well under my suggestion. What's your point?


My point is that with your proposed system, photo B would end up ahead of A, or at least they'd be equal.

I'm sorry for using the sheep example again here, but in a candid PEOPLE challenge, NO sheep should do better than a PERSON.


So are you saying my proposed deduction wouldn't be ENOUGH? Because what I proposed would be a deduction that would affect Photo A and NOT Photo B.


I think its a terrible idea - you are simply trying to force everyone to conform to the most common interpretation of the theme.


That happens anyway. Instead of awarding a 1 or whatever people use to denote a DNMC within their score you apply that separately. Of course someone could still check off DNMC and score the photo as a 1 but then it would be more obvious the voter is a troll since there would be less to argue why you gave the photo a 1 with DNMC no longer being an excuse.

Message edited by author 2006-03-07 18:11:17.
03/07/2006 06:14:03 PM · #57
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Falc:



I think its a terrible idea - you are simply trying to force everyone to conform to the most common interpretation of the theme.


That happens anyway. Instead of awarding a 1 or whatever people use to denote a DNMC within their score you apply that separately. Of course someone could still check off DNMC and score the photo as a 1 but then it would be more obvious the voter is a troll since there would be less to argue why you gave the photo a 1 with DNMC no longer being an excuse.


No thats not true, photographers would start to submit photos which attracted fewer DNMC checks which brings everyone in from the edge to the 'safe' ground - this would inevitably kill creativity
03/07/2006 06:14:46 PM · #58
Sadly, I don't know how to fix or improve this.

All I know is that I DO hold the challenge topic in very high regard,
whilst some other people are willing to twist and turn it around long enough so they can say: "See, now it DOES fit. It is brilliant because it is totally obscure and out of the box, and you're a useless voter without any imagination because you obviously can't see my genius"

If adhering to the topic (without twisting it beyond recognition) is such a big problem because of "conformity" or whatever, then why on earth do you try so hard to make DPC conform to all the other websites that allow any and all sort of photo without restrictions?

Why can't we make sure that DPC stays "out of the box" and gives us something different to do?

03/07/2006 06:18:34 PM · #59
Originally posted by yanko:

with DNMC no longer being an excuse.

So it's an EXCUSE now?

This is DP CHALLENGE, not DPPortfolio - the topic is what it is all about. Giving a low score to a photo that missed/ignored the topic is not an excuse, it is the whole point!
03/07/2006 06:20:36 PM · #60
Originally posted by Falc:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Falc:



I think its a terrible idea - you are simply trying to force everyone to conform to the most common interpretation of the theme.


That happens anyway. Instead of awarding a 1 or whatever people use to denote a DNMC within their score you apply that separately. Of course someone could still check off DNMC and score the photo as a 1 but then it would be more obvious the voter is a troll since there would be less to argue why you gave the photo a 1 with DNMC no longer being an excuse.


No thats not true, photographers would start to submit photos which attracted fewer DNMC checks which brings everyone in from the edge to the 'safe' ground - this would inevitably kill creativity


That happens now. How do you explain all of the threads about DNMC and people giving 1s because of it? There is no difference to what I or others have suggest EXCEPT show the photographer exactly how many people thought their image was DNMC. That's it. Why would presenting more information to the photographer not be a good thing? I'm not asking photographers to change their ways. If anything I am suggesting a way to REDUCE the effects of DNMC in the score by giving it value that is less than it holds now (i.e. a pct of the check boxes count against the score instead of all those 1s, 2s, 3s DNMC produces currently).

Edited for clarity.

Message edited by author 2006-03-07 18:24:31.
03/07/2006 06:28:02 PM · #61
Originally posted by Beetle:

Sadly, I don't know how to fix or improve this.

All I know is that I DO hold the challenge topic in very high regard,
whilst some other people are willing to twist and turn it around long enough so they can say: "See, now it DOES fit. It is brilliant because it is totally obscure and out of the box, and you're a useless voter without any imagination because you obviously can't see my genius"

If adhering to the topic (without twisting it beyond recognition) is such a big problem because of "conformity" or whatever, then why on earth do you try so hard to make DPC conform to all the other websites that allow any and all sort of photo without restrictions?

Why can't we make sure that DPC stays "out of the box" and gives us something different to do?


I know there are people out there who see the challenge theme to be the most important part of this community, and I agree that is is a big part. I'm not saying that we should abandon this at all. But if someone from a different culture who holds different values to the majority gets a rough deal because his interpretation is not 'the norm' then thats just plain wrong.

Some here are strict on the interpretations, others are not. Personally I don't hold the theme as the main element in my voting criteria, I give plenty of leeway. If its too far out then I will sting it a little, but I usually give the photog the benefit of the doubt and go with 'do I like the image and can I make some sort of connection with the theme'.

I don't see why we should try to stifle creativity because we can't tollerate different value sets.
03/07/2006 06:48:00 PM · #62
Originally posted by Falc:


I don't see why we should try to stifle creativity because we can't tollerate different value sets.

"Value sets" - such a catchy and chic phrase. Sometimes very appropriate, too - other times simply an excuse.

I try to be fair and I believe in giving the benefit of the doubt.
However, there are times that DNMC transcends all sane explanations and excuses, and are simply NOT on topic in anybody's "value set".

Those photos deserve to bomb out.

As to stifling creativity.... let me explain this with another analogy.
Imagine two prison inmates. One has unlimited access to any tool he wants, the other has close to nothing.

Which one needs to be more creative to escape?

The narrower the topic, the more creative we need to get to produce a good photo.

Anybody can take a photo of just anything.
03/07/2006 06:58:42 PM · #63
Originally posted by Beetle:

Originally posted by Falc:


I don't see why we should try to stifle creativity because we can't tollerate different value sets.

"Value sets" - such a catchy and chic phrase. Sometimes very appropriate, too - other times simply an excuse.

I try to be fair and I believe in giving the benefit of the doubt.
However, there are times that DNMC transcends all sane explanations and excuses, and are simply NOT on topic in anybody's "value set".

Those photos deserve to bomb out.

As to stifling creativity.... let me explain this with another analogy.
Imagine two prison inmates. One has unlimited access to any tool he wants, the other has close to nothing.

Which one needs to be more creative to escape?

The narrower the topic, the more creative we need to get to produce a good photo.

Anybody can take a photo of just anything.


Just chill out and be more accepting that not everyone holds your strict views and interpretations - let everyone come to DPC for what they want to get out of it!


03/07/2006 07:03:11 PM · #64
Originally posted by Falc:


Just chill out and be more accepting that not everyone holds your strict views and interpretations - let everyone come to DPC for what they want to get out of it!

That was uncalled for.
03/07/2006 07:10:10 PM · #65
The problem is that the challenge rules appear to provide a sort of license to enforce penalizing entries which, allegedly, dnmtc. Its function here sometimes reminds me of the American convention of hanging judges encouraging a mob to select a posse and send it on its way with some well made rope. The posse (here as well as there and then) always appears to act rightously either quoting the judge or the rule when challenged.

As I have said before and as Bear has pointed out again in this thread, topical challenges are a great thing when they stimulate the creativity of photographers. When they stifle it by allowing some to ostentatiously censor and penalize the very best, only the commonplace and mediocre can remain. This is not something all of us embrace.

This matter, IMHO, could be easily resolved by replacing the metaphorical hanging judge's words with a more sensible, humanizing voice.

I therefore propose we take out this phrase in the rules While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly. and enter this one (or a similar one) instead:

Submitting photographers are asked to keep the challenge topic in highest consideration.

Message edited by author 2006-03-07 19:20:52.
03/07/2006 07:10:42 PM · #66
Originally posted by Beetle:

Originally posted by Falc:


Just chill out and be more accepting that not everyone holds your strict views and interpretations - let everyone come to DPC for what they want to get out of it!

That was uncalled for.


You have obviously taken offence from that statement which was not intended. I simply meant that you appear to be able to ignore the fact that others do not see things so black and white as you.
03/07/2006 07:18:37 PM · #67
Originally posted by zeuszen:


I therefore propose we take out this phrase in the rules While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly. and enter this one (or a similar one) instead:

Submitting photographers are asked to keep the challenge topic in highest consideration.


Simply beautiful. Awesome proposition.
03/07/2006 07:19:53 PM · #68
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Originally posted by zeuszen:


I therefore propose we take out this phrase in the rules While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly. and enter this one (or a similar one) instead:

Submitting photographers are asked to keep the challenge topic in highest consideration.


Simply beautiful. Awesome proposition.


What does it do again?
03/07/2006 07:22:28 PM · #69
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Originally posted by zeuszen:


I therefore propose we take out this phrase in the rules While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly. and enter this one (or a similar one) instead:

Submitting photographers are asked to keep the challenge topic in highest consideration.


Simply beautiful. Awesome proposition.


What does it do again?


It may help remove remove a critical point of aggravation.

Message edited by author 2006-03-07 19:23:19.
03/07/2006 07:28:49 PM · #70
I am struggling to help keep the spirit of the challenge alive. Obviously, in some people's opinion the only right way is to let everybody do whatever they want to do. Just like on all the other photo websites. There is so little choice out there for exactly this type of challenge, but there are countless non-challenge ones.

I just don't understand this. If it is so unacceptable to have to follow a challenge with a topic, why enter in the first place?
If I constantly felt the need to push every boundary and test just what I can get away with, I'd enter contests where I am free to do what I want without the restrictions, instead.

What is so wrong about following rules? Why do I act "rightously", when I DO follow the rules?

I am perfectly willing to see other people's different ideas, I do it all the time. That does NOT mean I shouldn't have limits.

03/07/2006 07:32:01 PM · #71
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Originally posted by zeuszen:


I therefore propose we take out this phrase in the rules While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly. and enter this one (or a similar one) instead:

Submitting photographers are asked to keep the challenge topic in highest consideration.


Simply beautiful. Awesome proposition.


This is absolutely the most ridiculous idea I have ever heard. I honestly cannot believe I read this.

I propose we all go join photosig. We're so dadgum dissatisfied with DPC that I have absolutely no idea why we hang around.

Now we don't even like challenges. Good grief. "asked to keep the challenge topic in highest consideration"... Holy cow. I simply cannot believe you guys.
03/07/2006 07:34:17 PM · #72
It's not that people are trying to go willy nilly about, bandying non-challenge photo's as challenge photo's.

It's that people have such narrow minded brains, that you could have a picture that seems 100% on topic to one seem 100% off-topic to others, and every shade of gray in between.

03/07/2006 07:34:35 PM · #73
Originally posted by zeuszen:


What does it do again?


It ensures that people who like the challenges for what they are, can then be told they are breaking the rules because:

"It said in the rules that "Submitting photographers are asked to keep the challenge topic in highest consideration". Therefore the photographer obviously did that.
The challenge was called Circle, but he considered that his square actually really is a circle. Therefore he is right, and you are wrong."

Edited to say: sorry, I stuffed up my quoting, but I'm sure you can figure out how it went.

Message edited by author 2006-03-07 19:36:22.
03/07/2006 07:35:33 PM · #74
Originally posted by zeuszen:

The problem is that the challenge rules appear to provide a sort of license to enforce penalizing entries which, allegedly, dnmtc. Its function here sometimes reminds me of the American convention of hanging judges encouraging a mob to select a posse and send it on its way with some well made rope. The posse (here as well as there and then) always appears to act rightously either quoting the judge or the rule when challenged.
[/i]

This is a very inappropriate comparison. The entire PURPOSE of the voters at DPC is to decide which photo meets the challenge in the best possible fashion.

This is totally getting ridiculous, as usual.
03/07/2006 07:42:11 PM · #75
Originally posted by Beetle:

I am struggling to help keep the spirit of the challenge alive. Obviously, in some people's opinion the only right way is to let everybody do whatever they want to do. Just like on all the other photo websites. There is so little choice out there for exactly this type of challenge, but there are countless non-challenge ones.

I just don't understand this. If it is so unacceptable to have to follow a challenge with a topic, why enter in the first place?
If I constantly felt the need to push every boundary and test just what I can get away with, I'd enter contests where I am free to do what I want without the restrictions, instead.

What is so wrong about following rules? Why do I act "rightously", when I DO follow the rules?

I am perfectly willing to see other people's different ideas, I do it all the time. That does NOT mean I shouldn't have limits.


There's nothing wrong with following the rules, of course. There's something wrong with following any rules blindly. Since you cannot know everything you'd need to know in order to fairly assess topicality of a particular image, you would have to pre-judge the thing, i.e. to base your judgement on assumptions.

When you present your personal assumptions as fact and bolster this fact, not by any reasonable argument but by quoting a particular section in the rules in order to build an argument, then you would, in my book, be acting righteously.
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