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04/21/2006 12:42:47 PM · #1
Perhaps this belongs in rant, but...

Man, I feel crummy about helping people.

I noticed a comment by someone on someone's undersized photograph that recommended that they post the picture at 640 pixels and 300DPI so they get full impact. The recipient photographer had posted a thread about being discouraged by the strong negative comments in their first two challenge entries.

I have spent the last year and a half putting significant amounts of time into reading and learning about photography stuff and while I do occasionally get things wrong, there are a number of things I feel that I have a reasonable grasp on.

DPI is one of them. It is hardly a complicated subject. I figured it out with my mad math skillz learned in grade 5. I did not need to read about it or take a course or anything, it is just a simple fact of what it is.

It certainly seems as though this commenter does not though, so I sent a tactful, carefully worded PM (to avoid embarrassing them in public) with a clear, simple explanation of what DPI is, how it works and how to calculate it, along with the explanation that DPI is not related to the picture as submitted, but rather the screen/printed medium that the viewer happens to be using to view the picture at the time.

I received this reply:
Originally posted by rudeperson:

yes, and who died and made you the leading authority! Get a life bud


This is not the first time that I have received this sort of reply. On another occasion, I pointed out a small typo to someone who appeared to have possibly a slavic/russian type user name who had not listed location in the profile, but later turned out to be from Canada.

I sent back a like reply and now I feel bad. Not because that person doesn't deserve rudeness, but because I don't like this sort of reaction in myself. I don't normally get angry and respond like this, but there is a very special level of anger that one feels when one was just trying to be helpful and is returned with spite.

So I guess what I want to say is:

HEY! If you make a dumb mistake and someone points it out to you in a DISCRETE way, have the maturity to accept that you made a mistake.

If you feel that you didn't make a mistake, then feel free to discuss it with that person or tell them simply that you don't agree. Or do nothing at all.

If you did know this but simply overlooked something or weren't thinking at the time of posting, then feel free to simply ignore/delete the PM.

Responding rudely to someone who is pointing out a mistake that is VERY basic and simple is totally uncalled for.

This is a LEARNING COMMUNITY! Some people are running around willing to help others. If you go around making mistakes, it's quite possible someone might offer some info that might help put you on the right track. I know, I make plenty of mistakes too.

I realize that not everyone is a nice person, but this really bothers me.
04/21/2006 12:48:02 PM · #2
Keiran, I feel your pain :-(

You'd think that he/she would be happy to learn something they didn't know, especially since you so tactfully did that in PM.

Hang in there - to every twit like that, there are plenty of others who appreciate it.

(by the way - I am by no means slow or stupid, but for some reason I find that topic (DPI etc) not an easy concept.)
04/21/2006 12:52:07 PM · #3
I totally agree, I've had PM's where I've been called a jackass and worse because I commented on a picture I voted low, I try to comment on all pictures I vote very low so the owner of the picture knows why.

but now I don't even vote anymore, I don't need the hazzle that follows the comments I give, and I try not to correct people anymore because they will most certenly throw some shit your way.

better to be the silent member, read, look and learn, without being noticed ;)
04/21/2006 12:56:31 PM · #4
As they say, no good deed goes unpunished. Maybe its the industry I'm in, but I've learned not to take negative reactions personally. It has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with the peronality of the individual in question.

Could even help to give the person the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he/she was having a really rotten day. Maybe they were truly embarassed. Could be they're really decent in person. Stranger things have come to be. :)
04/21/2006 01:00:16 PM · #5
Originally posted by eschelar:


HEY! If you make a dumb mistake and someone points it out to you in a DISCRETE way, have the maturity to accept that you made a mistake.


it's "discreet"

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04/21/2006 01:02:04 PM · #6
Don't worry about it Keiran. You did the right thing by trying to help them out. There are still plenty of us out there who appreciate all we can get.

It's pretty hypocritical of someone to post a thread about rude comments then reply to you in such a way. Sorry you had to take the brunt of it.
04/21/2006 01:04:51 PM · #7
For reasons like this, DPC should have an "Unfavorite Photographer" section next to the Favorite Photographer section, just so people can keep track of how many sh*t lists they're on. :-)
04/21/2006 01:10:09 PM · #8
This has happened to me enough times that I have lost count. It's profoundly discouraging. I have had more negative PMs chastising me for being so presumptuous as to think to "inform" another member than I have had positive responses from other members thanking me for taking the time. This has caused me to assume that the negative responses are only the tip of the iceberg (for every one who posts back showing annoyance, mustn't there be many more who feel annoyed but keep their mouths shut?), and so I have become leery of posting ANY basic information/feedback to people who have not explicitly requested it.

Robt.
04/21/2006 01:26:23 PM · #9
Discrete vs discreet.

Yup! You are right Meanwile. I tossed that one up in the air very briefly as I wrote the post and chose discrete as I was quite sure that it was a legitimate spelling. It is, but with a different meaning. For my meaning in that sentence, it is actually DISCREET, as you say.

The kind of stuff an English teacher ought to know :). I think I'll leave it in the original post just for fun!

Oh, dudephil, the 'rudeperson' wasn't the person who started a thread. I checked the photos of the person who did start the thread and noticed that comment with the erroneous information on it. It wasn't worded overly harshly as were some of the other comments, but the error twigged me.

Bear, you have corrected me 'firmly' in the past and FWIW, I consider it a privelege. The speed of your replies, along with the directness and depth of thought that goes with them is one of the really great things going on here. The amount that I have learned from your posts is voluminous. I am not offended by a bit of back-and-forth when I have confidence in the source of the information.

Thanks to all who posted in support.

It's just too bad that we can't do anything to help these people understand some things a little better.

04/21/2006 01:35:10 PM · #10
Yeah it sucks, but please don't let it put you off continuing to give peopple advice/help...that's what makes this community so great. Its always great to get random PMs from people giving some advice, leaving some comments, or thanking me for stuff I've left. I try to do the same when I get the chance
04/21/2006 01:36:59 PM · #11
I don't understand why you would want to upload an image that is 300dpi when a computer monitor can't see past 72dpi...just makes for a larger file size and a slower load.
04/21/2006 01:44:37 PM · #12
I guess that's one good thing about not being able to get PM's...I never get any angry ones. But then, I never get any nice one's either.
04/21/2006 01:45:39 PM · #13
Originally posted by nephoto:

I don't understand why you would want to upload an image that is 300dpi when a computer monitor can't see past 72dpi...just makes for a larger file size and a slower load.


Sites such as Jones Soda ask for at least 300dpi, but because they need it for printing labels. Some folks may not think of that part, but only think "Jones wants 300dpi when I upload a pic for their gallery, so 300dpi must mean better viewing quality than 75dpi." Then again, some folks don't think at all. ;)
04/21/2006 01:55:18 PM · #14
Originally posted by eschelar:

Perhaps this belongs in rant, but...
I noticed a comment by someone on someone's undersized photograph that recommended that they post the picture at 640 pixels and 300DPI so they get full impact. The recipient photographer had posted a thread about being discouraged by the strong negative comments in their first two challenge entries.

Keiran, IMO you should have (tactfully) posted the correction--this is a learning site, and if someone posts thier photo significantly smaller than 640 pixels, they may be new to photography. In this case, the recipient photographer may have taken those labels to heart (pixels vs DPI) and wondered how you get 300 DPI on a 72 DPI monitor.

Looking at your post again, I see that the commentor said "640 pixels and 300DPI" not "640 pixels by 300DPI" (I first ass_u_me_d that the commentor said 640x300). We all "know" print is 300DPI and monitors are 72 (or 96) DPI.

IMO, the correct response to your PM should have been "OOPS--forgot to drink enough coffee this morning" or something similar. But one of you should have posted the facts about pixels vs DPI -- this is a learning site, and a lot of new members may have been left scratching thier heads.

04/21/2006 01:57:09 PM · #15
Oh boy, here we go... I sent a clarification message to nephoto.

DPI is based entirely on the physical dimensions of the picture.

I could offer a picture measuring 212x212 pixels and it is 300dpi if I print it out at 1 inch by 1 inch. If I blew it up to a 10x10, it's no longer 300DPI.

I haven't checked Jones soda out, but I would be surprised if 300DPI was their only criterion for image quality.

Pixels are pixels. DPI is relative to your viewing medium.

Edit: I will go check out the original post to see if I can find it. It may be lost for now. I think the issue was solved by the 25 other posters who said the same thing though.

Also, Not all monitors have the same DPI. My PDA has 222 dpi with 640x480 on a small screen. Common Monitor sizes with 1024x768 pixels include 15", 14", 12", 10.4", 8", 7". All offer different DPI.

Message edited by author 2006-04-21 14:02:03.
04/21/2006 01:58:57 PM · #16
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

This has happened to me enough times that I have lost count. It's profoundly discouraging. I have had more negative PMs chastising me for being so presumptuous as to think to "inform" another member than I have had positive responses from other members thanking me for taking the time. This has caused me to assume that the negative responses are only the tip of the iceberg (for every one who posts back showing annoyance, mustn't there be many more who feel annoyed but keep their mouths shut?), and so I have become leery of posting ANY basic information/feedback to people who have not explicitly requested it.

Robt.

This is why I think something should be done @ dpc. I don't know what but something. Here is a photographer that I would love to get feedback from (good, the bad, or ugly) because of his experience and overall knowledge, whether I like what he says or not, would help me learn.

This is very disturbing when some of the best critiques feel they should hold back comments because of people that slam them via PM or in a thread because they offered their advice.

Robt leave me a comment anytime. I would love to have your advise!
04/21/2006 02:16:57 PM · #17
Originally posted by meanwile:

Originally posted by eschelar:


HEY! If you make a dumb mistake and someone points it out to you in a DISCRETE way, have the maturity to accept that you made a mistake.


it's "discreet"

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who died and made you the leading authority on spelling! Get a life bud!

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04/21/2006 03:51:57 PM · #18
Bad attitudes must be going around...not just DPC, but even at my normally-fabulous and enjoyable workplace. Today, everyone on our high school faculty received this e-mail from our newspaper/journalism teacher:

"I was raised that if you had a problem with someone you went to them directly and as teachers this should be the example we show for our students. It hurts to know that we have teachers that would write negative comments on the {newspaper} and not sign their name. This is not the first time one of my papers have been put in my mailbox with unsigned comments.

I understand that there have been some errors in the paper and I thank the English Department for their help in editing the paper before it goes to print. I am always open to suggestions, however I draw the line at anonyms comments. I am not trying to lay blame but, I feel the paper is good considering I have 25 Freshmen who most don't want to be in Journalism and barely make a "C" in English.

The last {newspaper} for the school year will be mailed out to the parents and students in three weeks. If you are concerned with the way the paper is come talk to me and I will let you help with editing the paper. OTHER WAS KEEP YOUR NEGATIVE COMMENTS TO YOURSELF.

In closing I hope you show the next Journalism teacher a little bit more respect."


Now granted, it might have been rude for some other faculty member to essentially edit her paper and then put it back in her mailbox to see, but if we get down to brass tacks, the paper is just FULL of errors - spelling, grammar, punctuation, names, and content. It's not the first time, it's like that EVERY time. This teacher cannot spell at all herself, and has tons of errors on her own blackboard during class. I went in her room to have a meeting once and she had the instructions for her class written on the board, and it said they were going to present a "Presuasive Speech." YIKES! I thought I was going to have a stroke.

The English department faculty would never allow the errors that exist in this campus paper to EVER go to print, and this is the first time all year that any of us have heard that the English department was even helping at all. Maybe one finally did get around to editing for her, just after the fact. ;)

Anyway, it's a cruddy day overall and everyone is grumbling. I just couldn't believe how unprofessional it was for her to send that e-mail to everyone on the campus and not even pause to think for a moment that maybe someone was trying to help her without embarrasing her or calling her out personally. It could have been a parent or a student for all we know. I know it wasn't me that did it, although I do have the latest copy on my desk with 38 errors marked in the first 5 pages alone. The first newspaper that came out this year was even worse, and it hit entirely too close to home because there was an interview with me about my program that was completely MADE UP. The student author chose to write things that I didn't say and things that were completely wrong. I made the teacher remove the papers from every faculty mailbox and stop the parent copies from being mailed out by the USPS, and all the articles were hand-cut from the papers. I was LIVID. There was never a reprint or a written apology. I didn't hold a grudge, because I thought that it was taken care of and she had learned how important it was to edit carefully when students are the ones writing the news. I guess I was incorrect in that assumption. ;)

I know that this teacher is not returning next year, but what upsets me most is that the kids are the ones suffering. They have not learned anything about editing for a newspaper this year, apparently...and the new teacher hired to take her place will have to start all over again.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was rude of someone to mark her paper and then return it to her box. Perhaps I'm just rambling because I'm tired, irritable, and PMSing. It just flew all over me to find that in my inbox a moment ago. I hope our principal has some kind of reply for her. I know I do, but I will keep it to myself. ;)
04/21/2006 03:58:49 PM · #19
actually, it isn't DPI until printed. It is PPI. Dots are roundish, made of ink. Pixels are square, displayed on screens.

:-)
04/21/2006 04:18:12 PM · #20
Originally posted by laurielblack:

I hope our principal has some kind of reply for her.


"Ahhh.... Your fired.." lol
04/21/2006 04:21:23 PM · #21
I believe that this is a photography site?? So who cares if there are spelling or grammar mistakes. For those who don't like it get over it, no need for any kind of comment either private or public ... it just doesn't matter. So many times we see comments to a person who has asked for help to take time and do a search in other threads before asking dumb questions.... maybe they don't know how to search yet or something is a little different in why they're asking. In these cases either help or say nothing. I have noticed that most critisism comes from those who are very insecure with their self, but indeed may be good photographers.

Why can't we either be nice, shutup or be helpful. I believe that absolute negative comments from the same people over and over have the same effect as rude ones and SC's should tread them the same. There are web sites that encourage rudeness, smart comments, off colored jokes and pokes, DPC should have no place for this.

Encourage, constructive comments, praise or encouragement is what most are here for. If someone puts real bad photos in several challenges and even if no-one is rude about them they will stop or be grownup enough to scan past the ones you really don't like.

edit spelling error ;)

Message edited by author 2006-04-21 16:22:45.
04/21/2006 04:32:30 PM · #22
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:

I believe that this is a photography site?? So who cares if there are spelling or grammar mistakes. For those who don't like it get over it, no need for any kind of comment either private or public ... it just doesn't matter.


I would respectfully disagree. It is always appropriate to try to write properly, regardless of whether the site is a "photography" site or a journalism site.
04/21/2006 04:37:47 PM · #23
Guess a couple of boxes to click at the bottom of your challenge entry. One that says I don't want my image critiqued. One that says 'I want C & C' ....only check this is you want to hear honest critique for your image.
04/21/2006 04:38:36 PM · #24
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:

I believe that this is a photography site?? So who cares if there are spelling or grammar mistakes.

I find it very distracting if there are spelling mistakes in the title of a shot.

It's such a shame that someone can take so much time and effort over a challenge entry, and then spoil it with a spelling mistake.
04/21/2006 04:46:37 PM · #25
Originally posted by nards656:

Originally posted by PhantomEWO:

I believe that this is a photography site?? So who cares if there are spelling or grammar mistakes. For those who don't like it get over it, no need for any kind of comment either private or public ... it just doesn't matter.


I would respectfully disagree. It is always appropriate to try to write properly, regardless of whether the site is a "photography" site or a journalism site.


I agree it is appropriate to try. Being a very international site, as well as all levels of abilities, education and even handicaps, it is not appropriate to make a public display of typo or accidental errors. If some one is spelling incorrecly or using bad grammar on purpose then it is not appropriate to all to allow it to continue. The emphasis is on photography unless someone asks for spelling or grammer help which has happened in the past. As a retired senior military officer with BS and MS degrees and numerous other courses of instruction, I like may others make typos and even can't spell all the time correctly, here it should not matter unless it is being done to "piss" people off. I lived many years in Australia in grade school and high school, as an adult lived in England, Korea, Philapeans, and other places I wouldn't prefer not to remember. My education like many others has a mixture of many cultures, spelling and grammer ethics. All are correct but all can also be found to be bad manners also. In the US wiping one's face with a napkins is correct but in the UK that is pretty disgusting wiping baby poop on your face. In the US calling someone a "little bugger" is not a terribly bad and is often a humorous saying, in the UK it is not a good idea to have sex with an animal as buggers is sometimes refered as.

Let's just try to spell and type correctly but focus on photography and not cultural and educational differences.

.....and I'm sure there are spelling and grammer errors in the above statement.
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