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06/12/2006 07:57:36 PM · #1
I was looking through some profiles, and am surprised by how many people had really low average vote casts considering this site is full of great photos.

Is the voting being used as a way to "bring down the other guy" and gain a very small advantage. Are there clicks on the site that e-mail each other and scew the results or are people being honest and just think that everybody sucks at photography.

I have given some low scores from time to time, but I still am above 6.0. When I look around I see lots of 3.0's for averages.

Not complaining just curious. I am happy with 5.0 myself, considering the greatness of some of the photos here.

06/12/2006 08:03:03 PM · #2
We've had oodles of threads on this topic, but never managed to come up with a magic solution.

Some people seem to think they are God's gift to photography.

Even my average cast score (5.7) is too low, but I have a hard time accepting those under 5.

I find it very unfair of them to expect high scores, complain if they don't get them, yet bite your nose off if you ask them about THEIR low cast average.

I'm afraid I have no answer for you :-(

06/12/2006 08:04:21 PM · #3
I wasn't trying to stir up trouble. I was just thinking conspiricy as usual. I tend to think that some people choose winning over honesty 90% of the time.
06/12/2006 09:23:24 PM · #4
I'm not a high voter!
but my stats reflect otherwise. I think it's because I wont hesitate to vote a 10 to those that I think deserves it.
06/12/2006 09:28:43 PM · #5
I have nearly obtained the bell-curve voter's nirvana. Average vote cast 5.5062...
06/12/2006 09:41:25 PM · #6
When I first started here I was a pretty low voter. Then I saw the light, well Karma that is....what goes around comes around is what I believe. I've been working on my average vote cast for some time now. Well, I'm still working on it to tell you the truth. ;)

Avg Vote Cast: 5.8903


06/12/2006 09:55:14 PM · #7
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I have nearly obtained the bell-curve voter's nirvana. Average vote cast 5.5062...

Why do DPCers feel that the average vote cast should be around 5.5, the mathematical midpoint? Aren't DPC images better than that?

Message edited by author 2006-06-12 21:55:23.
06/12/2006 10:01:47 PM · #8
Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I have nearly obtained the bell-curve voter's nirvana. Average vote cast 5.5062...

Why do DPCers feel that the average vote cast should be around 5.5, the mathematical midpoint? Aren't DPC images better than that?


ya .. about half of them ;)
06/12/2006 10:04:42 PM · #9
theroretically a five should be about fair considering the great and not so great photos here..

mine is

Votes Cast: 2165
Avg Vote Cast: 6.0374
06/12/2006 10:05:38 PM · #10
Originally posted by ralphnev:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I have nearly obtained the bell-curve voter's nirvana. Average vote cast 5.5062...

Why do DPCers feel that the average vote cast should be around 5.5, the mathematical midpoint? Aren't DPC images better than that?


ya .. about half of them ;)

OK... for the other folks, let me re-phrase... isn't the average DPC image better than that. LOL!!!
06/12/2006 10:06:57 PM · #11
Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by ralphnev:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I have nearly obtained the bell-curve voter's nirvana. Average vote cast 5.5062...

Why do DPCers feel that the average vote cast should be around 5.5, the mathematical midpoint? Aren't DPC images better than that?


ya .. about half of them ;)

OK... for the other folks, let me re-phrase... isn't the average DPC image better than that. LOL!!!


So what is a good average? And how do you determine it?

I think I'll start voting on a 9-10 scale.
06/12/2006 10:13:59 PM · #12
I blame my lower average cast (5.0) on dial-up.
It seems that I'm seeing a lot of flaws as they're loading.
It takes forever to vote, too. Waaaah, wah, wah.
I've tried to do something else while waiting, like build a house out of 500 decks of cards or overhaul my rotory engine....etc....and then when I come back after it's finally loaded, I seem to time out or something and I have to sign back in. More waaah.

So, now you know. It must be the dial-up users. We're grumpy because everybody else has faster connections and we take it out on the entries.
~big wink~
06/12/2006 10:19:56 PM · #13
Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by ralphnev:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I have nearly obtained the bell-curve voter's nirvana. Average vote cast 5.5062...

Why do DPCers feel that the average vote cast should be around 5.5, the mathematical midpoint? Aren't DPC images better than that?


ya .. about half of them ;)

OK... for the other folks, let me re-phrase... isn't the average DPC image better than that. LOL!!!


So what is a good average? And how do you determine it?

I think I'll start voting on a 9-10 scale.

Sounds like a good plan. You got a long way to go to just get up to the mathematical midpoint. :) :)

Note: It is presumptuous and very wrong of me to suggest such a thing assuming you believe the average image submitted to DPC is bland and unworthy of better. Everyone's opinion is just as good as anyone else's, just diffeent. My appologies.

Message edited by author 2006-06-12 22:25:22.
06/12/2006 10:21:11 PM · #14
Interesting question...

In a totally random field, statistically it would make sense that the more votes you cast, the closer your average would be to the mean 5.5. Or at least such would be the case if you voted totally objectively.

However, statistics would also seem to indicate that as the selection group improved overall, the mean ought to increase. This might also occur if the voter chose to vote on images that looked really good as opposed to the random selection.

On the other hand, if the field was random, but the average vote was above or below the mean of 5.5, this might indicate that the voter was not voting completely objectively, making the person 'nice' or 'soft' or perhaps in the other direction, 'trollish', 'elitist' or 'nasty'.

But of course, as STDavidson pointed out, the field of pictures at DPC aren't entirely random... and many of us DO jump over to vote on at least one or two images that might jump out at us here and there... I know that I don't always start on the pic in the top left corner when I begin voting...

To be honest, I don't think the theoretical statistics of voting really apply here. There are too many different motivations behind the votes.

I sometimes vote an image 10 because I think there is a quality in the picture that may be missing from the technicals. Images that I know others are going to be voting 4,5 and 6 on.

Emotions throw off statistics (particularly in smaller test sections like this with only a few thousand or tens of thousand samples at the most), and I think that this can be a good thing.

As to why people might vote with a low average? Maybe it's because they have higher standards... Fair enough... My downstairs roommate has some extremely high standards for what he considers an excellent picture. Doesn't mean that every pic he takes is excellent... and he knows it... So if he tells me that a picture that I think is really good is kinda mediocre or less, I understand that he doesn't mean it in a malevolent way... He might simply mean (and often does) that the pic is about as good as it was going to get under those circumstances, but the circumstances themselves brought the pic down. I would guess that his voting average here would be in the mid 4's.

Nothing worth worrying about.

We don't all have the same standards or ideas about voting.

Interesting choice of words Dr Achoo... You do know what Nirvana is right? It's the state of nothing. No pain, no worries, but nothing else either... it's just a mystical state of existence without substance.

Wouldn't an average vote of 5.5 mean that your votes are cast without feeling? :)

(totally kidding there)

06/12/2006 10:28:04 PM · #15
Originally posted by stdavidson:


Note: It is presumptuous and very wrong of me to suggest such a thing assuming you believe the average image submitted to DPC is bland and unworthy of better. Everyone's opinion is just as good as anyone else's, just diffeent. My appologies.


So 5.7 must be what they deserve, right?
06/12/2006 10:44:55 PM · #16
Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by ralphnev:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I have nearly obtained the bell-curve voter's nirvana. Average vote cast 5.5062...

Why do DPCers feel that the average vote cast should be around 5.5, the mathematical midpoint? Aren't DPC images better than that?


ya .. about half of them ;)

OK... for the other folks, let me re-phrase... isn't the average DPC image better than that. LOL!!!


I don't know. I see a ton of snapshot-ish photos entered all the time. Not to say there aren't a lot of great images because there are. It's just that DPC isn't a site with just pro photographers. We have lots of people just starting out.

To add, I guess I am one of the low voters (5.26 average). However, I hardly give out any 1s, 2s or 3s. In fact the way I vote is 10s and 9s are reserved for just the ones I think should ribbon so at best I'm giving out only 3 of those per challenge. I also factor in whether the image "does anything for me". Even if it doesn't but is shot very well it's going to get at least a 6 or a 7 from me. The problem is DPC entries tend to favor heavily on the setup gimmick shots (i.e. water, glass, reflections and other stock photo-ish images) which really don't care for so by default those images will really have to bring something new to the table for me to jump up and award them a great score. Of course if the challenge theme is something like water reflections then that doesn't apply.

Message edited by author 2006-06-12 22:48:16.
06/12/2006 10:46:11 PM · #17
Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by stdavidson:


Note: It is presumptuous and very wrong of me to suggest such a thing assuming you believe the average image submitted to DPC is bland and unworthy of better. Everyone's opinion is just as good as anyone else's, just diffeent. My appologies.


So 5.7 must be what they deserve, right?


LOL. That's dangerously close to the bell curve average. You gotta give out some more 10s man. :P
06/12/2006 10:51:57 PM · #18
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

OK... for the other folks, let me re-phrase... isn't the average DPC image better than that. LOL!!!


I see a ton of snapshot-ish photos entered all the time.


In other words, no.
06/12/2006 10:57:35 PM · #19
Vote fair, vote honest....your average well reflect that.

Message edited by author 2006-06-12 23:06:54.
06/12/2006 11:07:40 PM · #20
Originally posted by eschelar:

In a totally random field, statistically it would make sense that the more votes you cast, the closer your average would be to the mean 5.5. Or at least such would be the case if you voted totally objectively.

This assumes, of course, that voter scoring should be adjusted to hit the midpoint. Why, I don't know. Heck, that can be achieved as easily by random, meaningless scoring.

The only significance to 5.5 is that it is half way between 1 and 10. Nothing more.

At DPC we give the average image a score around 5.23. What we are saying mathemeatically is the the average image should score less than the midpoint score whatever that might mean to us. Based on the voting scale I see every time I vote it means they closer to being "bad" than to being "good". That differs from how I feel about the images I see.

This is just my opinion. I think the average DPC image is better than 5.23 when 10 is defined as "good". So I score higher. That is my logic, pure and simple.
06/12/2006 11:13:04 PM · #21
I feel the reason why the average score here is around 5.2+ and not the 5.5 (1-10 scale average) is because we don't have a 5.5 button to click. If we did then you would see the averages rise to around that range.

When we come upon a photograph that we think is "average" we have to say 5 or 6 and 90% clicks the 5 because subconsciously that seems to us to be the average score.

Hope that make sense.
SDW
06/12/2006 11:16:02 PM · #22
Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I have nearly obtained the bell-curve voter's nirvana. Average vote cast 5.5062...

Why do DPCers feel that the average vote cast should be around 5.5, the mathematical midpoint? Aren't DPC images better than that?


In bell-curve voting, the average picture IS a 5.5 by definition. You are looking at it backwards. I determine what is average out of all the pictures and assign that a 5.5 (obviously either a 5 or 6), the rest of the pictures fall around that point.
06/12/2006 11:29:35 PM · #23
Is the quality of pictures going up or down since the beginning? I think they're going up, but the average vote cast is slowly going down.
06/12/2006 11:43:25 PM · #24
Originally posted by mad_brewer:

Is the quality of pictures going up or down since the beginning? I think they're going up, but the average vote cast is slowly going down.


Perhaps expectations rise faster than the images. Expectations of digital images were sure different when 1,2, or 3 mp P&S cameras were the norm.
06/12/2006 11:48:36 PM · #25
I think you've neglected one important reason for low scores. It is the most effective way to make your votes count. Usually there are a handful of photos that you like the best in a particular challenge. The best thing you can do for them is to give them 10s and give all the rest 4s or less, with emphasis on the less. In general, the lower you go, the more you can hurt photos you don't like and help photos you do.

I think that's a terrible thing to do, but I think some people do it. The reason I don't do it is because, in the process of trying to make your "voice" louder you've distorted it so much that it isn't your voice any more.
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