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07/31/2006 01:42:10 AM · #151
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by colyla:

Originally posted by PhilipDyer:

Originally posted by colyla:

I've reread this several times....please tell me you're kidding.


Rikki's my friend and I'm standing by him. His photography is outstanding. I never once saw a ribbon-winning image of his and wondered why it won. I thought every one of his ribbons was well deserved at the time, and my opinion has not changed. I hate that this has happened and don't condone Rikki's actions, but I stand by my friend and my original statement.


You do understand that your behaviour is disturbing? Just my opinion...but really man....your idolatry of Rikki is .... well, scary.

I thought his photography was well enough to stand on it's own....."providing" it really is "his" photography....but to be honest I'm not in a fuzzy, warm mood to believe it's even his at this point. Again, not being ugly...just honest in my opinion.


I don't know Philip but why do you find his behavior disturbing? Do you know him or just going by his post? Now, if a friend or family member of yours did something similar what's your reaction? Just an honest question and please don't tell me none of your friends or family would ever do such a thing. It's just a hypothetical question.


If it was a family member...my child...I would beat his ass! And...I would have to take a closer look at my parenting to see what I may or may not have done that could have caused and/or alleviated this behaviour. If it was my parents, other family....I would be extremely embarrassed and frankly I would take a closer look at the behaviour and how it impacts my immediate family (children) Would I still love them? Yes....they're my family...in spite of their iniquities (however you friggin' spell that).

I find the behaviour disturbing because he doesn't even know this guy! It's the iiinnntteerrrnnneeettt !!! I've been on the net long enough (since 96) to be able to sniff out a bullshitter. Can I always put my finger on exactly what it is? No. But when my gut instinct goes, "hey...something's not right". I listen to it.

You don't find it well.....odd....that philip (and he's not he only one) has a peculiar devotion to Rikki? I'm assuming he's never met him, doesn't know him from Jack sh*t....but Rikki sends really nice, positive, supportive, emails and posts ... so I forgive him. I don't dislike philip for it...or anyone else....I just find the behaviour extremely peculiar. An example...if someone had done this to my child (hypothetical, of course:) I would tell my child, "Some people make bad decisions, and you still need to be nice to this person jsut because it's a common courtesy, however, you need to be 'careful' of this person because they are not honest and you just need to be careful". To me, it's just a "common sense" thing. I don't have to hate/love the person to learn a lesson or to be careful....it's just common sense.

(okay, too much rambling! :)

07/31/2006 01:43:30 AM · #152
Originally posted by skiprow:

the problem is philip, he didn't make a mistake. he went way beyond making a mistake. a mistake is something you do once and learn from it--it's not repeating itself until you get caught...


Fine, go ahead and continue to ignore everything else that I said and argue over semantics.
07/31/2006 01:44:57 AM · #153
Think we could hold off on why some challenges are moving and others arent questions? The Council seem to be doing their best to answer everyones questions and retify the whole situation. Once they say 'it's done', then any problems could be addressed to them. Deal?
07/31/2006 01:45:49 AM · #154
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I find all this profoundly depressing. I find it depressing that Rikki, a well-respected site member, did this at all, of course. I am shocked and appalled by that. It makes me wonder all sorts of things about him and his work; is it all his? Is it all done by the rules? And so forth and so on.

But I'm almost equally depressed by this strong current of sympathy or support for Rikki that I keep seeing popping up in this thread. It seems totally out of place to me. Maybe I'm just a hard-ass, I don't know...

R.


I think you are being a hard ass but like I said in my first post it's totally justified. Look I could be naive but I forgive the dude. I've seen too many people in my life turn things around when they have the support of friends and family EVEN when they make countless mistakes. I just don't give up on people especially when the infraction was cheating in a contest. For pete's sakes almost ever other week someone posts a thread about an entry they have in another contest asking for votes. How is that not any different than what Rikki has done yet at best one person may question such a request but by and large most just go out and help the fellow DPCer cheat their way in another contest and that seems to be ok.

Message edited by author 2006-07-31 01:48:00.
07/31/2006 01:47:33 AM · #155
Originally posted by colyla:



I'm assuming he's never met him, doesn't know him from Jack sh*t....but Rikki sends really nice, positive, supportive, emails and posts ... so I forgive him. I don't dislike philip for it...or anyone else....I just find the behaviour extremely peculiar.
(okay, too much rambling! :)

You shouldn't assume that. he was to come to a GTG this last weekend and many people make friends/shooting buddies even if it is through the internet.
07/31/2006 01:47:37 AM · #156
Originally posted by colyla:

I find the behaviour disturbing because he doesn't even know this guy! It's the iiinnntteerrrnnneeettt !!! I've been on the net long enough (since 96) to be able to sniff out a bullshitter. Can I always put my finger on exactly what it is? No. But when my gut instinct goes, "hey...something's not right". I listen to it.


I live close to Rikki and have gone out shooting with him several times. Remember what they say about making assumptions?
07/31/2006 01:48:36 AM · #157
Originally posted by colyla:

You don't find it well.....odd....that philip (and he's not he only one) has a peculiar devotion to Rikki? I'm assuming he's never met him, doesn't know him from Jack sh*t....

You assume wrongly here.
07/31/2006 01:48:46 AM · #158
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I find all this profoundly depressing. I find it depressing that Rikki, a well-respected site member, did this at all, of course. I am shocked and appalled by that. It makes me wonder all sorts of things about him and his work; is it all his? Is it all done by the rules? And so forth and so on.

But I'm almost equally depressed by this strong current of sympathy or support for Rikki that I keep seeing popping up in this thread. It seems totally out of place to me. Maybe I'm just a hard-ass, I don't know...

R.


I think you are being a hard ass but like I said in my first post it's totally justified. Look I could be naive but I forgive the dude. I've seen too many people in my life turn things around when they have the support of friends and family EVEN when they make countless mistakes. I just don't give up on people especially when the infraction was cheating in a contest. For pete's sakes almost ever other week someone posts a thread about an entry they have in another contest asking for votes. How is that not any different than what Rikki has done yet at best one person may question such a request by and large most just go out and help the fellow DPCer cheat their way in another contest.


Well, for one, usually when people are asking for support votes at other sites this is not against the rules at these other sites. It's not cheating. What Rikki did is very much against the rules here.
07/31/2006 01:49:28 AM · #159
Originally posted by mk:

why is exif falsification not something that people can "learn their lesson from" but massive cheating is?


EXIF tampering used to be penalized with a suspension, too. Some people tried to falsifying the EXIF data with more sophisitcated methods, so the stakes were raised to a permanent ban. This is the first case of its type that I know of, and hopefully the last. If not, then I'm sure the penalty change to permanent as well.
07/31/2006 01:49:34 AM · #160
Before everyone casts too many stones, there is a lot behind the scenes that you are not all aware of. I just got off the phone with Rikki, who I consider to be a good and personal friend. I've noted the SC and Langdon have been wording their entries very carefully and Rikki also asked me not to get involved (for my own sake), but I can't sit by while the conspiracy theorists go crazy - I will, however, try to respect my friend's wishes as well as what I believe to be the SC's wishes and not divulge the details behind the situation.

In a nutshell, Rikki made a mistake. Rikki has a passion for photography and has an almost bigger passion for this site. Rikki's mistake was to share this passion with his friends a little to soon. He did not purposely solicit the votes received nor conger up a scheme to dupe the DPC community.
And yes Bear, all the images were his.

Langdon and the SC are doing the right thing to maintain the integrity of this site and Rikki above all others knows and respects that. As such, he as asked that his profile be removed from DPC.

Rikki is greatly saddened by the events of the past few days, and in hindsight, would have done things a lot differently (with respect to sharing his passion with friends). He has contributed a lot to this site, and thinks of this community as his friends. He made a mistake and is suffering the consequences of that mistake. But without knowing the facts of the situation, I ask that you all keep the stone throwing to a minimum.
07/31/2006 01:49:49 AM · #161
Perhaps he thought everyone else was doing the same thing with friends and family? Just a thought.

He's lost what he most wanted, ironic and totally unnecessary
07/31/2006 01:50:10 AM · #162
Originally posted by yanko:


For pete's sakes almost ever other week someone posts a thread about an entry they have in another contest asking for votes. How is that not any different than what Rikki has done yet at best one person may question such a request by and large most just go out and help the fellow DPCer cheat their way in another contest.


He CHEATED, plain and simple, he had people voting for his images! Who knows for how long, or to really what extent. Cheating is cheating, doesn't really matter about other contests.
07/31/2006 01:50:48 AM · #163
Originally posted by PhilipDyer:

Originally posted by skiprow:

the problem is philip, he didn't make a mistake. he went way beyond making a mistake. a mistake is something you do once and learn from it--it's not repeating itself until you get caught...


Fine, go ahead and continue to ignore everything else that I said and argue over semantics.

philip, i was simply responding to the way you responded to colette. it's one thing be there for a friend, it's another thing to defend, apologize, and try to explain indefensible actions. i have an acquaintance that was just found by his wife to be in the throws of a two+ year long affair. a drunken night out could be explained and maybe forgiven, but to continually, cognizantly repeat the same sober behavior is simply not defensible or acceptable.
07/31/2006 01:51:02 AM · #164
Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I'm almost equally depressed by this strong current of sympathy or support for Rikki that I keep seeing popping up in this thread.


We'd always like to think that some people can learn their lesson and return with honesty and respect. Lifetime bans are reserved for those who prove otherwise.


I asked CJ twice and he opted not to answer so perhaps you can...why is exif falsification not something that people can "learn their lesson from" but massive cheating is? I'm just curious as it doesn't make a lot of sense from this side.


Sorry, I didn't see your question -- I was in email, on the phone, in chat, in about 3 threads and on IM at the same time.

EXIF falsification is a special case, because it directly attacks the means we use to prove an entry valid. It also requires two separate offenses -- knowingly submitting an illegal entry, and knowing covering that up after the fact. In cases of EXIF falsification, there is a deliberate attempt to defeat the means used to determine compliance. In that case, I do not wish to allow them the chance to figure out what got them caught.

I like to think Rikki will learn a hard lesson from this, and will come out of this a better person. Whenever possible, I believe in giving a person a second chance. If Rikki chooses to squander that second chance (and I doubt he will), there won't be a third.

~Terry

Message edited by author 2006-07-31 01:57:37.
07/31/2006 01:52:21 AM · #165
Originally posted by MQuinn:

Who knows for how long, or to really what extent.


Oh, at least a dozen of us. ;-)
07/31/2006 01:52:58 AM · #166
Originally posted by MQuinn:

Originally posted by yanko:


For pete's sakes almost ever other week someone posts a thread about an entry they have in another contest asking for votes. How is that not any different than what Rikki has done yet at best one person may question such a request by and large most just go out and help the fellow DPCer cheat their way in another contest.


He CHEATED, plain and simple, he had people voting for his images! Who knows for how long, or to really what extent. Cheating is cheating, doesn't really matter about other contests.


Exactly but I guess you missed my point which was those that post those threads are also cheaters! I'm not trying to make excuses for him just pointing out an apparent hypocrisy I've seen here. That's all.
07/31/2006 01:53:44 AM · #167
Originally posted by macpapas:

Before everyone casts too many stones, there is a lot behind the scenes that you are not all aware of. I just got off the phone with Rikki, who I consider to be a good and personal friend. I've noted the SC and Langdon have been wording their entries very carefully and Rikki also asked me not to get involved (for my own sake), but I can't sit by while the conspiracy theorists go crazy - I will, however, try to respect my friend's wishes as well as what I believe to be the SC's wishes and not divulge the details behind the situation.

In a nutshell, Rikki made a mistake. Rikki has a passion for photography and has an almost bigger passion for this site. Rikki's mistake was to share this passion with his friends a little to soon. He did not purposely solicit the votes received nor conger up a scheme to dupe the DPC community.
And yes Bear, all the images were his.

Langdon and the SC are doing the right thing to maintain the integrity of this site and Rikki above all others knows and respects that. As such, he as asked that his profile be removed from DPC.

Rikki is greatly saddened by the events of the past few days, and in hindsight, would have done things a lot differently (with respect to sharing his passion with friends). He has contributed a lot to this site, and thinks of this community as his friends. He made a mistake and is suffering the consequences of that mistake. But without knowing the facts of the situation, I ask that you all keep the stone throwing to a minimum.


I'm happy to hear the images are all his. I never really doubted they were anyway. My point was, I hate the way the situation makes me feel, if you can understand that? The thing is, I LIKE Rikki. We corresponded a fair amount. Now I have to fit myself around this new information, you know? And it makes me feel bad, it bothers me, I am in a sense resentful that I have to feel this way.

Forgiveness is not an issue with me. It's a straightforward matter for me to forgive Rikki. But don't like how this makes me feel and it will take time to overcome that sick feeling, you know?

Robt.

Message edited by author 2006-07-31 01:55:13.
07/31/2006 01:54:08 AM · #168
Originally posted by macpapas:

He did not purposely solicit the votes received nor conger up a scheme to dupe the DPC community.


He accidentally forwarded his entry to 30 people over 40 times? I'm not quite sure how that works.
07/31/2006 01:54:33 AM · #169
although i believe that people are going a bit overboard with what he did, think, estimate about how many people do you think have done that before, i bet it was well over a third of all registered users maybe even over half.

what i'm saying is what he did is wrong but DON'T BE SO SERIOUS ABOUT IT, just calm down a little and don't be as defensive.
07/31/2006 01:55:13 AM · #170
Originally posted by yanko:

Exactly but I guess you missed my point which was those that post those threads are also cheaters! I'm not trying to make excuses for him just pointing out an apparent hypocrisy I've seen here. That's all.


I don't see the hipocracy, those accounts were banned/closed as well.
07/31/2006 01:55:26 AM · #171
Originally posted by yanko:

Exactly but I guess you missed my point which was those that post those threads are also cheaters! I'm not trying to make excuses for him just pointing out an apparent hypocrisy I've seen here. That's all.

Those other people are not cheaters nor condoning cheating -- as was previously mentioned, the voting rules at other sites are different than here, and at many sites "friends and family" voting is actually actively encouraged, not prohibited as it is at DPC.
07/31/2006 01:56:41 AM · #172
Originally posted by mk:

He accidentally forwarded his entry to 30 people over 40 times? I'm not quite sure how that works.


He showed his entries to friends and co-workers. I do that, too. The difference is that MY people don't vote, much less unfairly. His friends may have thought they were doing him a favor without an outright solicitation on his part.
07/31/2006 01:57:01 AM · #173
Not much to say that hasn't been said. I'm sad & disappointed. I'll echo others that indicated the pointlessness as well since his images could win without tainted votes.

Originally posted by keegbow:

Harvey my apologies you were right this type of thing could and was happening.

This was my first thought after reading this post. I owe coolhar an apology as well. I never would have thought.
07/31/2006 01:57:08 AM · #174
Originally posted by skiprow:

Originally posted by PhilipDyer:

Originally posted by skiprow:

the problem is philip, he didn't make a mistake. he went way beyond making a mistake. a mistake is something you do once and learn from it--it's not repeating itself until you get caught...


Fine, go ahead and continue to ignore everything else that I said and argue over semantics.

philip, i was simply responding to the way you responded to colette. it's one thing be there for a friend, it's another thing to defend, apologize, and try to explain indefensible actions. i have an acquaintance that was just found by his wife to be in the throws of a two+ year long affair. a drunken night out could be explained and maybe forgiven, but to continually, cognizantly repeat the same sober behavior is simply not defensible or acceptable.


Amen (you said it better than I did :)

07/31/2006 01:57:18 AM · #175
Originally posted by muckpond:

Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:

Will those vote be wiped from our scores as they may have voted others low?


we've answered this, but to repeat:

the voting patterns of the ghost accounts were not abnormal other than the fact that they always voted highly on the one user's entry. therefore, the votes will not be removed.

i'm not sure why some of the placements seem to be shifting. we will have to wait for langdon's return to explain it all.

This is the last I will ask about this because I know the SC and Admins have their hands full trying to sort this out.

Did these "ghost" accounts enter any challenges or just vote? If they just voted then I would think that all other votes they cast were random and not based on the pictures they were scoring. The only reason they look OK was to keep from their votes being wiped. And the 20% or more votes was so that the one vote they wanted (Rikki's) to count. And if thats the case then all their votes are erroneous whether it be a high or low score and should be wiped.
Just my opinion.
Thanks
SDW
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