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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Disappointed... (Re: After the Game)
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10/26/2006 11:52:49 AM · #1
Thoughts, and a question...

Thought: It's disappointing that people don't seem to realize a SPORTING VENUE is more than a FIELD. I never thought such narrow-mindedness would be found on a site dedicated to artistic expression.

Thought: Replying with only the challenge text is NOT HELPFUL. I'm surprised this is even allowed as a comment. I am literate. I understand the challenge. Sorry for not taking a picture of a field like you expected. But don't insult my intelligence.

Question: Is this the usual? If so, I figure I may as well shut down my account now. I'd rather take the photos and get no critiques than have to sift through such idiocy to find two helpful comments.

Edit: Changed "a few questions" to "a question," since I only really asked one...

Message edited by author 2006-10-26 12:24:00.
10/26/2006 11:56:24 AM · #2
Since the challenge is active (currently in voting stage), this conversation is probably best suited for next week when the results are in. At that point you can post your image (challenge entry) and get some additional feedback on your image and perception from voters.

JMO of course. :D
10/26/2006 12:07:02 PM · #3
I never thought such narrow-mindedness would be found on a site dedicated to artistic expression.

Dpchallenge is not about artistic expression is it?
10/26/2006 12:10:46 PM · #4
People around here can be very literal. Seems to have gotten worse lately. Bear in mind, (and I know I don't have the benefit of knowing which image is yours) that there is a difference between "thinking outside the box" and "not following the challenge description". You should have been here for Environmental Portriat.

The cool thing about this challenge model is the challenge and having to be creative in a narrow framework. Otherwise it would be just another "upload your best shot" type of site.

I you are interested in sticking around, look at the past challenges, what worked and what didn't. And remember even that will change over time.

There are a lot of good photographers, developing photographers, pros and non-pros. There are also some losers that get a kick out of getting reactions like yours. Don't give them the pleasure.

This is not a place for the faint of heart or the overly sensative. It can be extremely frustrating and exremely rewarding.

Good luck. I hope you stick around!
10/26/2006 02:00:19 PM · #5
When I first started here I got all spun up about things just like the gentlemen noted. Actually, from time to time I still get a little frustrated. However, I am now learning how important it is to shoot for the challenge specifically first and foremost and if you have even a sliver of a doubt that people might not "get it" then don't go with it. You're going to get pummled. In this challenge I entered a shot that I didn't think was very good and, if it weren't specifically for this challenge, I'd never care to share it with anyone. BUT, I knew the picture met the challenge DEAD ON and the photo was "ok." Score? 6.0. This proves to me that people are more interested that you FIRST meet the challenge by the "letter of the law" and secondly, that you do it with a good photograph.

One more example I want to share. I shot a picture for "faceless portrait" that had a woman wearing a mask. A mask hides what? A face, right? The challenge said show us the essence of a person without revealing their face. Since a mask covers a face and taking off a mask REVEALS their face, I figured a mask was within the rules. BUT, I had doubts. I thought, "Someone out there is going to say the portrait has a face." Sure enough, my first comment was.. "I see a face" and I got a score of 4 from them I think. I was mad at first thinking "YOU DON'T SEE A FACE...YOU SEE A MASK COVERING A FACE!!" Then I calmed down and realized I only have myself to blame. I had doubts about it before I shot it. I've learned from that mistake and moved on.
10/26/2006 02:13:24 PM · #6
Disappointment around here is often tied to ribbons or score. My goal is to shoot something which interests me and relates to the challenge, and to get feedback on it from the people here. It may or may not be a "good" picture, or one which addresses the challenge head-on.

I'm only disappointed when there aren't comments, not with what they have to say -- I learn as much or more from what people say they don't like about a photo as I do from "great shot!"
10/26/2006 02:26:12 PM · #7
I didn't give you the 4 but don't most masks replicate a face? I think I would've had to DNMC that also. My interpretation of faceless was no face at all. Not to disguise one with another.
10/26/2006 02:34:39 PM · #8
Originally posted by Breanain:

Thoughts, and a question...

Thought: It's disappointing that people don't seem to realize a SPORTING VENUE is more than a FIELD. I never thought such narrow-mindedness would be found on a site dedicated to artistic expression.



Agreed that a sporting venue is more than 'a FIELD'. Absoultely correct. However, there were some entries IMO that tried to pass off somethings that are not considered a SPORT and focused on VENUE instead. Those were DNMC entries in my opinion.

I think your statement on "a site dedicated to artistic expression" is a bit strong. I think the site is dedicated to a Photo Challenge and that there is "art" to every photo, but also a very heavy emphasis on technical quality of the photo. You can have nice artisic photos that stink in quality and great technical shots of a subject like one's baby,cat,dog etc. that seem to have a very "bland" or biased stigma attached to them, both get bad scores. I don't think this site is focused on either one, but rather a combination of the two.

Originally posted by Breanain:

Thought: Replying with only the challenge text is NOT HELPFUL. I'm surprised this is even allowed as a comment. I am literate. I understand the challenge. Sorry for not taking a picture of a field like you expected. But don't insult my intelligence.


This is an ongoing issue. Everyone has an opinion and if you are a registered user, you get to basically post whatever you want in the comments section (so long as it is not a personal attack on the author or so offensive to the community that it needs to be edited by a moderator). I too have gotten a number of comments that I've wondered why they even bothered. You simply have to let those go and take the few you find useful and go with them.

If I find an image Did Not Meet Challenge, is too dark, or what I consider that dreaded word 'DULL' and they say it wasn't any of those things, whose right? It's an opinion. Everyones got one and some of them really stink.

Originally posted by Breanain:


Question: Is this the usual? If so, I figure I may as well shut down my account now. I'd rather take the photos and get no critiques than have to sift through such idiocy to find two helpful comments.


I really don't mean this in an ill way, but it looks like you've been registered for almost 5 months. Why ask NOW if "is this usual?". It seems like you would have made up your mind by now on this. I had pretty much picked up the 'Norms' of this place after 2 weeks. Some of them rub me the wrong way too, but it all boils down to a personal decision. Do "I" appreciate the way things are conducted on this site to continue participating? The choice is obviously yours.

One of the things I have found that IS USUAL, is the need to grow "a thick skin" as my opinion and theirs is not always going match up nor my expectations of commentors and the actual comments left.

Message edited by author 2006-10-26 14:40:15.
10/26/2006 02:38:44 PM · #9
i love dpc. i learn heaps here. but... i do have a tough time figurin' you danged voters out ;) ;) ;)!! i took a few quick pics for the after the game challenge, last minute.... didn't really like anything i came up with but i decided to submit just for the hell of it. i was flaburgasted when i checked the next morning to find that it was scoring a 6.5!! that's my highest score so far. all week i've been clicking into the picture trying to figure out whyyyy people like it. i honestly believe it deserves a 4.8. BUTTTTTT when i submit a pic that I think is fabulous and predict a 6.0+ .... that's when i end up in the fours. weird i tell ya. weird. :)

Message edited by author 2006-10-26 14:39:54.
10/26/2006 02:42:29 PM · #10
Originally posted by shannylee13:

i love dpc. i learn heaps here. but... i do have a tough time figurin' you danged voters out ;) ;) ;)!! i took a few quick pics for the after the game challenge, last minute.... didn't really like anything i came up with but i decided to submit just for the hell of it. i was flaburgasted when i checked the next morning to find that it was scoring a 6.5!! that's my highest score so far. all week i've been clicking into the picture trying to figure out whyyyy people like it. i honestly believe it deserves a 4.8. BUTTTTTT when i submit a pic that I think is fabulous and predict a 6.0+ .... that's when i end up in the fours. weird i tell ya. weird. :)


Yep, and very hard for the newbies who are just starting out and want to improve. My best shot is not as good as my worst (voting wise) IMO, so I too can't figure out the voters. You start to look for trends that appeal to them but then you have to ask yourself, how far do I want to go to appeal to them if it compromises what "I LIKE" about my photography.
10/26/2006 02:43:40 PM · #11
I'm with ya, probably one of many reasons I don't have a ribbon. I shoot for my self, not a great ps person. I've learned a ton here and my profile and score reflect that. More than that, my shots go over great outside this site.....I do get frustrated at times, but imo, accept it, learn and go on.......Ace

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Disappointment around here is often tied to ribbons or score. My goal is to shoot something which interests me and relates to the challenge, and to get feedback on it from the people here. It may or may not be a "good" picture, or one which addresses the challenge head-on.

I'm only disappointed when there aren't comments, not with what they have to say -- I learn as much or more from what people say they don't like about a photo as I do from "great shot!"
10/26/2006 02:45:18 PM · #12
Originally posted by GeneralE:



I'm only disappointed when there aren't comments, not with what they have to say -- I learn as much or more from what people say they don't like about a photo as I do from "great shot!"


What's funny is I have received a lot of the same critical comment about my "game" entry. And they are all correct. So I must agree to a large extent.
10/26/2006 02:48:35 PM · #13
frankly, challenges are not about artistic expression. challenges are about competition. that's why there's a scoring system.

there's certainly nothing wrong with utilizing artistic expression in your competitive shots, in fact is highly encouraged, but in the end it's still just a competition. if you decide to take a shot that liberally interprets the definition of sport than you should fully expect people to vote and comment accordingly.

it is what it is.
10/26/2006 02:52:53 PM · #14
Originally posted by scarbrd:

This is not a place for the faint of heart or the overly sensative. It can be extremely frustrating and exremely rewarding.


The site itself is extremely frustrating - the rewards come through the people, not the ribbons (like I would know with 0 ribbons to date!)

I've often wondered what validation through a ribbon from this group will bring - will I actually be a better photog once I figure out how to win a ribbon?

Am I selling out my creativity as an artist to shoot only to please the masses?

Why can't these people see how brightly my creative star shines?

Why do they beat me with the DNMC stick instead of discussing my photography?

I found for me there are some things that approval from this site will bring - can teach me - and I am a better photog now than two years ago.

I also found that selling photos that score a 5.4 for hundreds of dollars on stock sites helps me feel MUCH better than a ribbon. New gear is fun!

I came for the challenges, but stay for the three or four amazing friends I've made, for the mentors that help me beyond anything I could express in words, and to continue to gripe about how the voters don't see how brilliant I am! :-)

I feel your pain - but the pain seems to be making me better at what I love. Free study coming up - another one of my babies on the chopping block. Here we go again...


10/26/2006 02:54:20 PM · #15
Originally posted by dallasdux:

... However, there were some entries IMO that tried to pass off somethings that are not considered a SPORT and focused on VENUE instead. Those were DNMC entries in my opinion. ...

Is this the kind of conversation (excuse me - "exchange of ideas") that should be going on while a challenge is in the voting stage?! BTW dallasdux, this isn't specifically directed at you only. Your comment was just one of many I've been reading lately.

Personally I don't have an entry in this challenge, but that doesn't stop me from being substantially irked at this type of thread during an active challenge.

If you feel so strongly about what meets/doesn't meet the challenge when you are viewing or voting, then say so in the comment area available to you on the image page directly. Does that expose you too much? Afraid to stand up for what you really think when it gets on a personal level?

Really. All of this bantering about DNMC this, and DNMC that - come on already.
10/26/2006 02:56:58 PM · #16
Originally posted by Breanain:

Thoughts, and a question...

<snip>

Thought: Replying with only the challenge text is NOT HELPFUL. I'm surprised this is even allowed as a comment. I am literate. I understand the challenge. Sorry for not taking a picture of a field like you expected. But don't insult my intelligence.
<snip>
I'd rather take the photos and get no critiques than have to sift through such idiocy to find two helpful comments.


So you'd rather end up with a "4" on what you considered a blueribbon shot and have NO comments telling why you were voted down?
You don't want people's opinion? Then challenges probably aren't for you, because that's what every vote is -a person's opinion.
Oh, and an observation (which will probably be ignored because you're not interested in hearing what we voters think)... Calling us idiots for disagreeing with you isn't the best way to start out here. :)

Message edited by author 2006-10-26 14:58:44.
10/26/2006 02:58:52 PM · #17
Originally posted by BeeCee:

... Calling us idiots for disagreeing with you isn't the best way to start out here. :)


amen

Message edited by author 2006-10-26 14:59:06.
10/26/2006 03:20:36 PM · #18
Clarify a few things...

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Oh, and an observation (which will probably be ignored because you're not interested in hearing what we voters think)...


Not true, or else I wouldn't have bothered to read the comments in the first place... *sigh*

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Calling us idiots for disagreeing with you isn't the best way to start out here. :)


I never called anyone an idiot for not agreeing with me. I don't really care if they like my shot (I don't really think it's that great, but I like it for what it is). The problem I have is with the CALIBER of the comments. Please read the first post again for comprehension before responding. And to clarify anyway: I'm fine with people saying the photo I took didn't give them the impression of a sporting venue (even though I wish there was a bit more freedom, but I can see where they are coming from, and I'm ok with that). I can see how my photo didn't do that, and if I had known the text I wrote to clarify what/where it was wouldn't display I probably would have incorporated it into the title, as others did. The problem is that people simply post the challenge text as if I never read it in the first place. This is insulting to my intelligence and worthless as a comment.

Originally posted by dallasdux:

I really don't mean this in an ill way, but it looks like you've been registered for almost 5 months. Why ask NOW if "is this usual?".


I registered a while ago, but only recently actually got a camera, and hence have only started to participate.

As for the people saying it is inappropriate to talk about a photo during the challenge: Please give me instructions on how to remove my photo from the challenge and I will gladly do so.

Thank you for the responses that have been insightful, encouraging, or otherwise positive in some way. I do appreciate it.

Edit: Fixed a broken quote tag.

Message edited by author 2006-10-26 15:21:53.
10/26/2006 03:28:02 PM · #19
The way I see this place is thus - You can choose to be massively affected by the comments that people leave, and the scores that you get, or you can choose to enter the photos that you like, and accept that not everyone is going to agree with your choices.

I voted on the game shots and left a few comments on ones where I didn't see a "sporting venue". I felt that I was fairly liberal with my definition. Other people may be less liberal. Really, it's up to them, because they are the voters, and you've put your photo up for judgement.
10/26/2006 03:37:02 PM · #20
although I am not sure why you think that the only alternative to not discussing your photo during the challenge period is to remove it from the challenge, the rules say this:

You may request removal of your own photo, for any reason, if:
You make the request during the voting period. Requests made after the close of voting typically will not be considered.


Why not just wait until the challenge voting is over with and then vent away?
10/26/2006 03:48:14 PM · #21
Originally posted by jemison:

although I am not sure why you think that the only alternative to not discussing your photo during the challenge period is to remove it from the challenge, the rules say this:

You may request removal of your own photo, for any reason, if:
You make the request during the voting period. Requests made after the close of voting typically will not be considered.


Why not just wait until the challenge voting is over with and then vent away?


But be aware that if you do request removal it will count as a DQ, with applicable rules.

Regarding voters simply quoting the description;
Very often people DO forget to read it, believe it or not! And when I see a shot that, IMO, fits the challenge title but not the detailed description I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, rather than assuming that they simply chose to ignore those details.

One of my first entries was hammered with DNMC comments and I was upset because it DID meet the challenge, but I failed to show that clearly in my shot. Hence, I disagreed with those comments and with my miserable score, but I found them helpful because it taught me that it's up to the photographer to communicate through the photo, and I failed to do that clearly.
10/26/2006 03:51:41 PM · #22
wanna advice ? forget it, have fun and move on.
10/26/2006 03:52:33 PM · #23
Originally posted by gooc:

wanna advice ? forget it, have fun and move on.


:) :) :) :)
10/26/2006 03:53:03 PM · #24
Hey, My entry for "After the Game" is doing poorly & is my first ever photo to be entered in DPC or any other photography venue for that matter. I'm learning SO much, and really appreciating the feedback. I vowed to myself not to take anything too personally, and know I can only improve.
I do think that the only confusion about this particular challenge is that while the title of the challenge is "....Game", the further details mention a field. Games of chess, or something like the 'game of life itself' don't really lend themselves to both 'game' and 'field' too well.
So, I learned that I have to take ALL the description of a challenge into account to do better. I'm learning, I'm improving, & I appreciate all the banter about concerns y'all have.
Rock on!
10/26/2006 03:58:48 PM · #25
Jemison, thanks for pointing that out. I do see that, but I'm unclear who to contact. This page (//www.dpchallenge.com/help_contact.php) doesn't have anything specific for this purpose. Should I contact the "General Inquiry" people?

BeeCee, thanks for that post. I think that I had very different expectations for this site than what, in reality, it is. I appreciate your thoughts and the warning about the DQ, but I'm looking for a place where I can actually get helpful critiques. This doesn't seem to be it (though on a side note, your comment was helpful, and I marked it accordingly), because as people have said, this is a challenge site, and it's about scoring/voting.
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