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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Black & White Portrait II CRITERIA!!!!!!
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01/19/2007 06:05:24 AM · #1
Originally posted by levyj413:

Jeb, you keep saying that there were no details.

Yes, I do.

Is that not correct?

Originally posted by levyj413:

Nevertheless, the voters told you they thought there was plenty of detail in the words "B&W Portrait."

I feel pedantic as Hell going over this again and again, but it all hinges on the fact that the issue arises when somebody, anybody, makes an assumption.

All I'm saying is what *YOU* are saying in the sentence above: <snip> they *thought* there was plenty of detail in the words"B&W Portrait.<snip>

They made the assumption, they made *their* interpretation......that's their right to do so, but that doesn't *MAKE IT RIGHT* just because they chose to, that doesn't make it right because there were quite a few who did, it just means that there were quite a few.

And it became a bunch of hootin' and carryin' on and general fun 'cause it shook 'em all up and I called 'em on their stuff.

I've been poking fun at this whole fiasco the whole way through.....I have obviously nothing to gain here except to try and sway the people who won't admit that my point was valid, though screwball and miniscule.

Originally posted by levyj413:

Anyway, you know that and many people before me have said it, so if you want to keep claiming there's nothing indicating what was meant, go for it.

Of course I want to keep claiming that!

Without that keystone, my whole house of cards collapses, right?

And again, I repeat what I said in the last post:

I knew perfectly well how it was to be *assumed*.....but it didn't SAY that in the challenge details, it said N/A.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Geez, I didn't figure that someone from my own team was gonna bust my chops about this.....you're supposed to cosign my screwball ideas....didn't you read the team handbook?

Originally posted by levyj413:

Chuckle. I think I said you should either enter what the voters expect if you want a high score or enjoy the comments if you enter shots like this and don't care about the score. :) If that ain't the Team Suck attitude, I missed something important!

Nope, you didn't miss it at all!

And I have enjoyed the heck out of the whole shebang......I wonder what the record is for comments during voting.

Think I got a shot at it?

I was going for the weirdest-kid-in-the-room scenario.....how'd I do?
01/19/2007 01:30:54 AM · #2
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I am merely stating that I don't think it's the right way to vote to DNMC someone on the basis of *their* interpretation of challenge details when there are NONE!

Jeb, you keep saying that there were no details. Nevertheless, the voters told you they thought there was plenty of detail in the words "B&W Portrait." Anyway, you know that and many people before me have said it, so if you want to keep claiming there's nothing indicating what was meant, go for it.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Geez, I didn't figure that someone from my own team was gonna bust my chops about this.....you're supposed to cosign my screwball ideas....didn't you read the team handbook?

Chuckle. I think I said you should either enter what the voters expect if you want a high score or enjoy the comments if you enter shots like this and don't care about the score. :) If that ain't the Team Suck attitude, I missed something important!
01/18/2007 11:11:40 PM · #3
Just an awesome shot! (Didnít follow thread). I just wanted you to know as I commented during the challenge. When I vote. I vote on 100% of all the images in a challenge that I get a chance to vote on. This is the first time since I joined; I didn't give an image a score. You didn't get a pretty ribbon, but itís a Wining shot!....ace
01/18/2007 10:59:50 PM · #4
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Geez, I didn't figure that someone from my own team was gonna bust my chops about this.....you're supposed to cosign my screwball ideas....didn't you read the team handbook?


We're not the borg. You wave your butt around and somebody's gonna spank it.


Umm...that comment *was* a joke.

You kinda left out the rest of what I said right after that.

Whassa borg?


ok, maybe we are the borg. You'll find out when your neurons start flashing...
01/18/2007 10:53:13 PM · #5
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Geez, I didn't figure that someone from my own team was gonna bust my chops about this.....you're supposed to cosign my screwball ideas....didn't you read the team handbook?


We're not the borg. You wave your butt around and somebody's gonna spank it.


Umm...that comment *was* a joke.

You kinda left out the rest of what I said right after that.

Whassa borg?
01/18/2007 09:51:44 PM · #6
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Geez, I didn't figure that someone from my own team was gonna bust my chops about this.....you're supposed to cosign my screwball ideas....didn't you read the team handbook?


We're not the borg. You wave your butt around and somebody's gonna spank it.
01/18/2007 09:33:37 PM · #7
Originally posted by levyj413:

Okay, Jeb, since you keep whacking at us team suckers, here's my input.

You knew full well what B&W Portrait meant. If you didn't, then I can honestly say I'm surprised.


Okay.....here it is.

I knew perfectly well how it was to be *assumed*.....but it didn't SAY that.

The challenge details said N/A.

It's definitely nit-picking, but it was either an oversight.....or maybe whomever decided to go that route was curious to see if somebody'd shake 'em up....I did.

The whole thing was tongue-in-cheek.....really!

I was surprised at *HOW* out of joint some people got.

I got quite a few, "Clever, but uh-uh..." and "That's different." which is really what I expected for the most part, and some "Heh, heh, that'll shake 'em up." comments.

The ones that surprised me were the ones that , based on their *interpretations* and *assumptions* stated specifically that I had not "Met the criteria" or "You did not submit a B&W photo as the theme stated", et cetera.

It's those comments that kinda set me back a little, and then when I had the one guy start really lighting into me on a personal level when I asked him for a link or a reference, then I just got a little pointed in asking him to justify his position AND attitude.

Which he never did.....he just told me I had no sense of humor and left.

Seriously, nobody but an idiot would have submitted that photo under those conditions and not expected to get razzed.....I just didn't really expect to get reprimanded, told I was clueless, stupid, and some other things based entirely on wrong stances. And this was during the discussion.

The majority of the voters had fun with it.

Originally posted by levyj413:

Assuming you did know, you chose to enter a shot that relied on a very different interpretation. That's certainly your option.

It's also the option of each voter to decide how hard they want to work to follow your thinking.


That's true....and as Don and Robert mentioned, they wrapped up no time at all.....they voted and moved on.

Robert, having been here a week or two and having pretty much seen it all, said: "Never occurred to me it might be DNMC, given that there was no challenge description."

Originally posted by levyj413:

Don't go on about not having a definition in the challenge description, though. At that point, you're arguing that everyone has to agree that you found a good interpretation, not simply stating your right to have your own.


No, I'm not arguing that anyone has to agree that I found anything at all. I am merely stating that I don't think it's the right way to vote to DNMC someone on the basis of *their* interpretation of challenge details when there are NONE!

People keep trying to read this projection thing into my thinking when it just wasn't any kind of big plot.

I wasn't trying to change the whole thing, I wasn't trying to push anyone into my way of thinking, it really was just my way of having fun and slipping through a crack.

Quite frankly, I've been having a hoot with this.....I've gotten more mileage out of this than my ribbon from a discussion standpoint. It's been an amazing week for me here at DPC.

The entry has gotten almost 1000 views, 67 comments, and 3 faves. How many other entries did that well?

I am not the least bit concerned about the score, I had a blast!

AND.......I had OOBIE in mind from the word go.

Originally posted by levyj413:

Now, keep in mind two things:
1) This is a contest Web site, at least in the challenge section of it. If you want a high score, shoot and enter what voters want. End of story. If you want comments and discussion, enter what you like. Sometimes they come together.

2) None of this has anything to do with your vision as a photographer.


Geez, I didn't figure that someone from my own team was gonna bust my chops about this.....you're supposed to cosign my screwball ideas....didn't you read the team handbook?

I'M TELLIN' MOM!!!!!

There are times when you just have to say WTF, I'm gonna go for it.

I did.....I had fun......and you can bet your a$$ that I'll do it again in some manner.

That one was just a little too close to the edge for some.

Live and learn, but grin and have fun with it along the way!
01/18/2007 12:46:52 PM · #8
Okay, Jeb, since you keep whacking at us team suckers, here's my input.

You knew full well what B&W Portrait meant. If you didn't, then I can honestly say I'm surprised.

Assuming you did know, you chose to enter a shot that relied on a very different interpretation. That's certainly your option.

It's also the option of each voter to decide how hard they want to work to follow your thinking.

Don't go on about not having a definition in the challenge description, though. At that point, you're arguing that everyone has to agree that you found a good interpretation, not simply stating your right to have your own.

Now, keep in mind two things:
1) This is a contest Web site, at least in the challenge section of it. If you want a high score, shoot and enter what voters want. End of story. If you want comments and discussion, enter what you like. Sometimes they come together.

2) None of this has anything to do with your vision as a photographer.
01/18/2007 09:25:25 AM · #9
Simply put the one of the reasons I didn't score the picture higher was because of the red background, I thought that was to bold for black and white and in my opinion the spirit of the challenge, if it had been a brown grey pink and red challenge I would have given this shot an 8 as it was I gave you a 5 based on the fact I still thought it was technically good but not really black and white. The fact that it wasn't a black and white shot didn't come into my decision on voting even though this was black and white II and the first black and white gave me an indication of what was expected and not spelt out to us in this challenge.

01/18/2007 08:35:46 AM · #10
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Funny, I didn't even blink when I voted on this. I thought it was competent, gave it a 6, and moved on... I guess my box is too big....


Likewise. Didn't hesitate at all. Thought to myself "THAT's a different take on the topic!", scored it, and moved on. Never occurred to me it might be DNMC, given that there was no challenge description.

R.


And that, in a nutshell, was the kind of thinking and reaction I had in mind when I entered that photo in the challenge.

Thanks, guys!
01/17/2007 07:56:20 PM · #11
Originally posted by posthumous:

Funny, I didn't even blink when I voted on this. I thought it was competent, gave it a 6, and moved on... I guess my box is too big....


Likewise. Didn't hesitate at all. Thought to myself "THAT's a different take on the topic!", scored it, and moved on. Never occurred to me it might be DNMC, given that there was no challenge description.

R.
01/17/2007 07:51:23 PM · #12
Funny, I didn't even blink when I voted on this. I thought it was competent, gave it a 6, and moved on... I guess my box is too big....
01/17/2007 06:43:26 PM · #13
Originally posted by TCGuru:


Actually, I read every line. You chose to "interpret" the theme. I just stated it as it was printed: Black and White Portrait II it does not say Color anywhere. Sorry, it is right there in print. Perhaps I should have defined it out of the Encyclopedia? Definitions of black and white:



Perfect example of someone who takes photography and these challenges too literally. My Humble Opinion of course.
01/17/2007 04:20:00 PM · #14
Don't worry, Jeb. Some of us have been here for years and not yet gotten a ribbon. You've broken that barrier rather quickly, so don't take the punishment for "out of the box" so seriously. Since you're a winner, you have that privilege. The rest of us just struggle on :)
01/17/2007 03:25:35 PM · #15
I just want to say thanks to all who participated in this discussion. I learned a lot through this challenge, and the one before it.

I learned how to be careful what I read into a title, or a description, because if I can come off the wall with a concept, not only does that mean that nobody else has to follow that path, but that their concept may go in the entire opposite direction.

I also learned that I should do my homework.....had I looked back a mere two months, ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' zaflabout had already demonstrated that my theory, which as it turns out wasn't mine after all, didn't fly.

I'll check back for more input, but now I have to go do what I'm supposed to with my teammates and make some comments of my own on their entries.

I will make better comments having been here for this discussion.

Best wishes to all, and I plan to kick ALL your a$$es in the next challenge!....or at least give it my best effort.

Later....

Message edited by author 2007-01-17 15:27:18.
01/17/2007 01:52:22 PM · #16
Originally posted by zeuszen:

We don't miss anything. Period. We should conform.

I say, thank god for those who buck these fetters.


Yes, thank goodness...
01/17/2007 01:52:07 PM · #17
Originally posted by zaflabout:


i think we are beating a dead horse here, if jeb like this shot then great in the end that's all that matters. and if some of the voters don't like it, what's the big deal you allready voted him low on it and the message got through.

i say let's just forget about that challenge and focus on what's to come WPL4!!!:)


AMEN! BTW, you don't have to desat a photo to make it B&W :)

Originally posted by NikonJeb:


Jojo, I take it you didn't read the previous posts any more thoroughly or think about them before you wrote this post than you interpreted the "theme" as you called it, for the B&W Portrait.


Actually, I read every line. You chose to "interpret" the theme. I just stated it as it was printed: Black and White Portrait II it does not say Color anywhere. Sorry, it is right there in print. Perhaps I should have defined it out of the Encyclopedia? Definitions of black and white:

1. Originals or reproductions in a single color, as distinguished from multicolor.

2. A term used to describe an image or film. Simply, it means that the image uses only shades of grey to visualise the subject photographed or filmed. The term is closely associated with the term greyscale.

3. Monochrome (one color) or luma information. In the color television system the black and white portion of the picture has to be one "color": gray, D6500, 6500 K as defined by x and y values in the 1939 CIE color coordinate system.

The comment about "so obviously would tank" was not directed specifically at you, just at the general collection of those who post the "why did my photo do so badly" threads. It WAS one of three reasons I listed :)

I am glad you are happy with your score. I never alluded otherwise. I also wonder that if you were happy with the score, why start the thread?

Also, you are fussing at me here:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:


I only feel slighted by people such as yourself who wouldn't keep their minds open for a different approach because of their own *ASSUMPTIONS* about the CRITERIA, THEME, whatever that they imposed upon my *DIFFERENT*,but NOT incorrect entry.


How do you know I didn't give you a decent score? Just because I responded and what I said? hmmmmm?

I used the motion panning challenge as an example because it is a theme that requires skill... I had never done it, had you? That is the reason that reference was used and I didn't imply that I would KNOW the outcome, I implied that I KNOW people would DNMC an entry like that. Common logic and experience :)

Glad you don't regret, it hinders learning to dwell.

That's it, all I have to say. Just thought I would clarify a bit.

Jojo

btw, my week started out rainy and cloudy but now it is lovely, it has quit raining and the sun is out! How about yourself?

Message edited by author 2007-01-17 14:15:04.
01/17/2007 01:46:20 PM · #18
Originally posted by TCGuru:

...Nope, I didn't miss anything. A photo in colour is not as hard to get right as one solely in black and white. Period. Perhaps he should have photographed it in B&W like the rest of us.


We don't miss anything. Period. We should conform.

I say, thank god for those who buck these fetters.
01/17/2007 01:37:37 PM · #19
]
Originally posted by TCGuru:


That is what the challenges are about. Proving your skill in that particular area. The most creative/talented usually win. (I am not saying that they always win, but they usually do from my observations)

Jojo


Wouldn't you say that his entry was a very creative/talented entry? At no point in the challenge description did it say that a black and white photo had to be desaturated. That may have been the intention of the challenge, but since it was not explicitly stated, there was room for interpretation. And as someone stated below, the rules do state that you should have an open mind when interpreting a photo. The entry was very creative and forces you to have an open mind when interpreting what it means and how it fits the challenge.
01/17/2007 01:36:28 PM · #20
Originally posted by zaflabout:

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/583/thumb/426424.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/583/thumb/426424.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

i submitted this in the black and white challenge, i got a 3.9, and till now i still think it's one of my best shots, with my worse score by far!

nevertheless,let's think of it this way, if a bw pic was interpreted as colors black and white , then what it is a bw pic? maybe the name should be change to desat. pic, this would be a better description...

bottom line i learned my lesson from this shot, and after that i stuck to the challenge theme and tried to be creative within the limit of the challenge, since then things started picking up for me.

i think we are beating a dead horse here, if jeb like this shot then great in the end that's all that matters. and if some of the voters don't like it, what's the big deal you allready voted him low on it and the message got through.

i say let's just forget about that challenge and focus on what's to come WPL4!!!:)


Oh, WOW!!!!

I never saw that!

Same thing, too!

Details N/A!!!!

You were the victim of the same set of self-imposed standards arbitrarily set by people who it didn't meet *THEIR* criteria.

Thank you for chiming in, it's enlightening.

BTW, I love your work......I have a pic of yours in MY faves!
01/17/2007 01:29:34 PM · #21
Originally posted by witam:

I have not gone through all of the replies, but would like to take the time to give my point of view. I gave you a 3 (if i remember correctly). Why?

First of i'm not American, English.. so English is not my native language, not even my second or third (i live in a country with 3 official languages , none being English). Why do i mention this? When i rate images i think in my native language: dutch. In dutch black and white can in no way be linked to a human with a dark skin. When we call someone 'black' as in a nick it means he has black hair. When we refer to the skin color, we will mention it is about the skin color, because otherwise no one would know what we mean. (we do not have many 'blacks' (dark skinned persons) in our country)

So while i now have come to understand your intent of filling the black and white part of the title in an unique way , i would never in a million years have figured it out back at the time of rating, simply because we think from different point of views. This is an international community, in which we all (try to) speak English but the rating happens from the background we all as individuals have. This portrait did not fit with my expectations of the challenge, so i stand with my score.


As you should.

If I didn't communicate my intention to you, then you *should* have voted that way.

As long as you missed my interpretation and I didn't miss yours.

That's how I understand it.....it's my job to get you to "hear" what I am trying to "say"!

BTW, *YOUR* explanation is quite clear and brooks no misunderstanding with me so we cannot possibly be that far apart in our interpretation of how to vote in a challenge.

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain to me your vote.

Cheers!
01/17/2007 01:26:04 PM · #22
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/583/thumb/426424.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/583/thumb/426424.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

i submitted this in the black and white challenge, i got a 3.9, and till now i still think it's one of my best shots, with my worse score by far!

nevertheless,let's think of it this way, if a bw pic was interpreted as colors black and white , then what it is a bw pic? maybe the name should be change to desat. pic, this would be a better description...

bottom line i learned my lesson from this shot, and after that i stuck to the challenge theme and tried to be creative within the limit of the challenge, since then things started picking up for me.

i think we are beating a dead horse here, if jeb like this shot then great in the end that's all that matters. and if some of the voters don't like it, what's the big deal you allready voted him low on it and the message got through.

i say let's just forget about that challenge and focus on what's to come WPL4!!!:)
01/17/2007 01:24:25 PM · #23
Jojo, I take it you didn't read the previous posts any more thoroughly or think about them before you wrote this post than you interpreted the "theme" as you called it, for the B&W Portrait.

Please give me the reference, as I had asked ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' holiday to do, where I might find the ever so elusive definition of said theme.

I'm still waiting for his reply, and holding my breath.....just call me "Blue".

This was what I started this thread with:

"There's no going back now, the votes are cast, I just want some reasonable discussion as to why this entry is not a perfectly fine, albeit odd, entry."

Does this sound like anything but an invitation to discuss this challenge as it relates to my entry?

Am I complaining about the score?

Absolutely not!

Originally posted by TCGuru:

You know, I haven't been here long but I have seen so many threads on "My photograph didn't do well, WHY?" or "Your comment hurt my feelings!" that it is just silly. Your photograph didn't do well because the people looking at it didn't see effort, simply didn't like the photo, or they felt that it was silly of you to enter it when it so obviously would tank.


I know why my photograph didn't do well, it was because I pushed the limits too far, farther than some minds could go. That didn't mean that I DNMC, it just meant that I didn't meet *THEIR* interpretation.

I'm not quite sure why you are so certain that "it so obviously would tank".

I think my 4.4857 is a positively outstanding score when you consider I got 52 1s and 2s.

No banner score, but I've had worse where I ruffled no feathers in a challenge.

Originally posted by TCGuru:

Everyone has a right to an opinion. This site is based on Democracy. A good thing about that is, even if someone went out and gave everybody 1's for DNMC-256 Grayscale, it would balance out because they did it to EVERYONE. Would you rather D&L pick the winner every time and we just bypass voting all together? (Betcha that photograph still wouldn't do well in this challenge) What would be the fun in that?

Here is what I mean:

We get a specific challenge theme because it is just that, a CHALLENGE. While I respect your choice to enter this photograph in the challenge, it was not done in a B&W medium *there is red in the pic* which is SO much more difficult than color to capture depth *yes, even in 256 Grayscale*.


In that opinion you have your right to, anyway.

Once again, that elusive theme......it was what?

Could I have that reference or link?

Originally posted by TCGuru:

That is what the challenges are about. Proving your skill in that particular area. The most creative/talented usually win. (I am not saying that they always win, but they usually do from my observations)

That would be like entering a shot of a flower in a glass in the Motion Panning Challenge. It would not fit. Even if it were the best photo in the world, it is not moving, soooooo it would do badly.


Interesting that you have these answers for how a challenge will go and you use it as a basis in fact, yet it's your supposition based on no facts whatsoever.....is that entry and challenge just like you present?

You're comparing my real situation with something you conjured up, it's a completely invalid comparison, isn't it?

Yet I give my interpretation a go and you tell me it was " silly of you to enter it when it so obviously would tank.".

So your interpretation based on your supposition is okay but I'm all wet.

How does that work?

And my entry really didn't tank, did it?

Originally posted by TCGuru:

If you step outside the box, prepare yourself to get wet. It rains quite frequently out there.


ROTFLMSOAO!!!! Oh, TRUST ME!!!!!

I just weathered a Category Five storm, and you know what?

I had a BLAST!!!!!!!

I've still got a virtual pile of wet duds right over yonder in a heap.

They'll take days to dry!.....8>)

Originally posted by TCGuru:

But, once again, PROVING YOUR SKILL in a particular area is why the challenges have THEMES. A color portrait does not show me your skill in taking Black and White Portraits. Sorry if you felt slighted, keep it in your portfolio as a reminder if you didn't like the score.


I only feel slighted by people such as yourself who wouldn't keep their minds open for a different approach because of their own *ASSUMPTIONS* about the CRITERIA, THEME, whatever that they imposed upon my *DIFFERENT*,but NOT incorrect entry.

Different and peculiar is not wrong, it may not score well, but it doesn't mean it's wrong.

I'm keeping it in my portfolio because I *DO* like the score, I like what I learned, and I had a blast and got to meet some super-nice open-minded people who thought my entry was a hoot and loved the excitement themselves.

Originally posted by TCGuru:

I have one *okay quite a few now* I keep in mine so I can go back, look at the comments frequently, and try not to make the same mistake more than once.

HAD to put .02 in...

Jojo


Between my red ribbon in Procrastination and my 55 during-voting comments in B&W Portrait II, I have a couple of personal bests that will take me a long, long time to top, I'm thinkin'.

I had a totally off-the-wall, roller-coaster, exhilarating and surprising week full of fun like I've never had before!

No regrets whatsoever.

Hey, how 'bout that!

That's why I'm here!

So......how was your week?

Anything going on?


01/17/2007 12:55:41 PM · #24
I have not gone through all of the replies, but would like to take the time to give my point of view. I gave you a 3 (if i remember correctly). Why?

First of i'm not American, English.. so English is not my native language, not even my second or third (i live in a country with 3 official languages , none being English). Why do i mention this? When i rate images i think in my native language: dutch. In dutch black and white can in no way be linked to a human with a dark skin. When we call someone 'black' as in a nick it means he has black hair. When we refer to the skin color, we will mention it is about the skin color, because otherwise no one would know what we mean. (we do not have many 'blacks' (dark skinned persons) in our country)

So while i now have come to understand your intent of filling the black and white part of the title in an unique way , i would never in a million years have figured it out back at the time of rating, simply because we think from different point of views. This is an international community, in which we all (try to) speak English but the rating happens from the background we all as individuals have. This portrait did not fit with my expectations of the challenge, so i stand with my score.
01/17/2007 12:21:12 PM · #25

I agree with you Johnna. Each challenge is about the Challenge. If you go in an submit a picture that streeetches the boundaries, then you must take what comes. I have a photo up in the Match challenge at the moment, which I should NEVER have submitted. I should have listened to instinct - I didn't have a great picture and went along and submitted anyway. I should have sat that one out. I also got hammered in the Black and White for lack of Contrast. I particularly went for softer contrast simply because that's my preference. Having been through the process now, I realise that voters like strong contrast...would I do differently next time and adjust my contrast to please the voters...honestly I don't know. BUT I learned a whole lot about what viewers like, what they appreciated about the shot (which was so heartening) and what they found weak. It's about the learning.

CAN'T WAIT FOR THE NEXT BLACK AND WHITE CHALLENGE!!! I really think it's an area we all engage with more frequently.

Originally posted by TCGuru:



But, once again, PROVING YOUR SKILL in a particular area is why the challenges have THEMES. A color portrait does not show me your skill in taking Black and White Portraits. Sorry if you felt slighted, keep it in your portfolio as a reminder if you didn't like the score.

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