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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Black & White Portrait II CRITERIA!!!!!!
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01/17/2007 07:30:30 AM · #26
Originally posted by holiday:

out of the box doesn't mean out of the competition. it's true that wonderful out of the box images scored way lower than boring shots, but it's not the case with this image. this image is not out of the box. actually, it's quite a regular portrait. being gutsy doesn't mean posting shots that in other competition (for exemple, color portrait) would be considered banal, but posting original pictures within the theme of the competition


That is your opinion. To me, it's a clever interpretation of this challenge, albeit not a great image. If you truly can enjoy a photo that is out of the box and see how it can or does meet a challenge than good for you. I wish more here could feel that way.
01/17/2007 07:33:08 AM · #27
Originally posted by craigester:

98% of those taking part did understand the challenge correctly, and as we have seen, so did 98% of voters.

I can't agree with this. A large number of people doing it doesn't make it correct. That kills kills creativity on the level of the individual like nothing else can.

David
01/17/2007 07:34:40 AM · #28
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01/17/2007 07:39:02 AM · #29
Originally posted by holiday:

It's not about appreciating out of the box pics..


Uh, actually, that's exactly what this is about.

Originally posted by holiday:

It just isn't fair for the other challenge participants to give a high rating to a otherwise great pic, but that clearly doesn't belong to that competition.


Why doesn't it belong?

Just because nobody else thought of a concept like this?

Originally posted by holiday:

That picture is a metaphoric interpretation of the challenge definition - a black person (which, by the way, has chocolate brown skin...) with a white beard, while you know very well what black and white means...


You're making my case for me. A "Metaphoric Interpretation"!

That's really an exceptionally thoughtful way of putting "screwball entry".....I'll have to remember that.

And yes, I know what it probably meant to be "assumed" when the title says B&W, but that's a leap that you and 483 other entrants chose to make.

And how *DO* you know what was meant?

Maybe when they made up the challenge, they were all sitting around and they said,"Let's see how many of these folks out here are such sheep that when we put in the words B&W Portrait, they will "assume" that we mean the image rendered in black and white and how many people come up with a more interesting perspective.".

Now I'd be willing to bet the farm that this statement was NEVER made, I'm sure that the folks creating the challenges probably have lives, but we cannot prove that they didn't have a chat like that.....well, we could ask, but that's not the point, once again.

Originally posted by holiday:

If the definition were "pick two: black, white, brown....etc" it would have been different.


And once again, I refer you to the challenge details: N/A

And once again, I ask you: What is the definition of N/A

Until you can give me a definition, or criteria for, N/A, you CANNOT tell me that I haven't met the criteria or the definition, can you?

Originally posted by holiday:

I am dissapointed to see some banal shots with barbie girls ranked before some great shots, as number 6 in this comp, for exemple, and others too, but you cannot dismiss them for being banal (unfortunately:)...


That is correct, just as you cannot dismiss an entry for meeting criteria that do not exist.

Originally posted by holiday:

You have to respect the rules, even if you don't like it. Otherwise, you cannot ask for respect... imho


That is correct, though I was not asking for respect; adherence to these same rules that you are referring to would have beeen nice on your part.

Message edited by author 2007-01-17 07:47:14.
01/17/2007 07:49:31 AM · #30
Originally posted by tooohip:

That is your opinion. To me, it's a clever interpretation of this challenge, albeit not a great image. If you truly can enjoy a photo that is out of the box and see how it can or does meet a challenge than good for you. I wish more here could feel that way.


Hey, wait a minute!

What do you mean not a great image????

I love that pic!!!!

Now I'm gonna go cry....that was HARSH!!!!8>)
01/17/2007 07:52:13 AM · #31
Originally posted by David.C:

Originally posted by craigester:

98% of those taking part did understand the challenge correctly, and as we have seen, so did 98% of voters.

I can't agree with this. A large number of people doing it doesn't make it correct. That kills kills creativity on the level of the individual like nothing else can.

David


Certainly, your mother, like mine and everyone else's I know, said to you when you were a kid,"If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you jump off a cliff, too?".

And maybe you should go back and look at how many of the comments *did* like or find interesting and/or amusing my entry was....
01/17/2007 07:55:00 AM · #32
When I saw the picture I had trouble deciding if this was an "oops" or if you purposely meant "black man, white beard" (and left that as my comment). So I "got" the idea. But still didn't think it belonged in a black and white portrait challenge. You took a risk. Clearly some agreed with you, but not all. So I say kudos for taking the risk. But sadly, I was one of those that did not agree. So I gave it a 4 as I thought it was a decent photo that just didn't meet my definition of the challenge.


01/17/2007 07:56:13 AM · #33
Originally posted by holiday:

the title is the definition and of course you know it...

[quote=david.c] Each and every one of us is entitled to supply our own definition.


Originally posted by holiday:

really?! maybe it doesn't even have to be a portrait, cause I have seen some lanscapes too:)


The title is the definition?

And I know it?

But it doesn't SAY that, does it?

Could you please show me in the challenge details where it says that?

But it DID say portrait!

So it does have to be a portrait to meet challenge, correct?

Because it says right in the title B&W PORTRAIT.

This is the point that I'm trying to make.

Message edited by author 2007-01-17 07:59:01.
01/17/2007 08:01:11 AM · #34
David C, I hear what you are saying and agree, but how the hell are you going to get the voters out of their historical shackles in terms of their more literal interpretation of the challenge guidelines? Until they shift paradigms en mass, you are not going to get out of the box images produced in volumes and well rewarded.

Personally the interpretation of Black and White in the 'normal' sense is not a barrier to creativity. Within those confines, pretty diverse stuff came out anyway.

I think the new challenges 'Exits' and 'Entrances' are more open-ended and will encourage greater experimentation and creativity. Maybe this is an attempt to get people literally Out of the box... :-) Well done D&L.
01/17/2007 08:10:59 AM · #35
Originally posted by dwterry:

When I saw the picture I had trouble deciding if this was an "oops" or if you purposely meant "black man, white beard" (and left that as my comment). So I "got" the idea. But still didn't think it belonged in a black and white portrait challenge. You took a risk. Clearly some agreed with you, but not all. So I say kudos for taking the risk. But sadly, I was one of those that did not agree. So I gave it a 4 as I thought it was a decent photo that just didn't meet my definition of the challenge.


Here ya go, folks......this is what I can live with.

You have every right to vote wherever you want based on what a picture does, or does NOT do, for you personally.

You wanna tell me it doesn't meet YOUR criteria or definition, fine, but you cannot tell me it doesn't meet the challenge based on the CHALLENGE criteria.

You don't like it, fine, give it a two and take no heed that I slaved over the right setting, took hours of care doing the post processing, assured the model that this was a respectful process.....that's okay (sob)

Just be truthful and say it doesn't do it for YOU, don't hide behind imaginary reason 'cause you made an assumption.

I gambled, and fell horribly short, but I got some really fun commentary, and one photographer here was kind enough, and liked the concept enough, to spell out in great detail how my entry spun him around and how he had fun with it.

He got a chuckle and a respite; in his own words: "Having just voted on almost 100 black and white images to see this image full of color come up was a stunner. No where in the challenge description does ot say that your entry must be a black and white converted image. While a bit out of the box (just a bit) I think that you met the challenge well and in a gutsy way."

Guess what!

I won with that *ONE* comment out of 55 pre-closing comments.

If I take a picture and show it to someone and it makes them see something in an entirely different light, I have done my job, and along the way, I had fun doing it.
01/17/2007 08:14:43 AM · #36
I think the question at stake here is vanity, not truth, originality or understanding

originally posted by NikonJeb: nobody else thought of a concept like this.... I know what it probably meant to be "assumed" when the title says B&W, but that's a leap that you and 483 other entrants chose to make... "Let's see how many of these folks out here are such sheep that when we put in the words B&W Portrait, they will "assume" that we mean the image rendered in black and white and how many people come up with a more interesting perspective.".... What do you mean not a great image???? I love that pic!!!! ... And maybe you should go back and look at how many of the comments *did* like or find interesting and/or amusing my entry was....

Well, under these circumstances, I don't think you really want to agree with anything that contradicts your opinion. I hope you don't think you're that original just because you posted something that stirs contradiction....
01/17/2007 08:48:21 AM · #37
I thought it was a cute angle on the challenge, but given that this is Black & White Portrait II, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the images to be similar to Black & White Portrait I, which DID call for a portrait in black & white.
01/17/2007 08:52:38 AM · #38
Originally posted by holiday:


Well, under these circumstances, I don't think you really want to agree with anything that contradicts your opinion. I hope you don't think you're that original just because you posted something that stirs contradiction....


Don't you know by now that on this site, if you don't agree with someone then you lack the creativity and imagination to "think out of the box"

I am so sick of the "out of the box" cliche I could vomit.
01/17/2007 08:53:32 AM · #39
Originally posted by Gatorguy:

I am so sick of the "out of the box" cliche I could vomit.


well make sure you don't vomit in the box because that's where the rest of us are standing.
01/17/2007 09:03:22 AM · #40
I liked it - I thought it was original and a nice looking photograph too. Still - I would like to know how it would have looked in black and white instead of color.
01/17/2007 09:10:03 AM · #41
Originally posted by muckpond:

well make sure you don't vomit in the box because that's where the rest of us are standing.

LOL
01/17/2007 09:14:16 AM · #42
when i saw this picture in competition, i thought that the one who posted it has a great sense of humor, but now, seeing that it was not intended as a joke and that the photographer pretends that others should accept it as a black and white, even if it's obvious that it's not, i am kind of disappointed...
01/17/2007 09:27:15 AM · #43
I know the discussion on here has already seconded most of what I am about to say, but I felt compelled to "chime in" on this simply because as a voter (who didn't even contribute a photo to this challenge) I found myself extremely frustrated by what to do with "stretches" of the challenge theme.

Given that the description of the challenge was simply "N/A," I assumed that meant that the DPC admins intended the challenge title as self-explanatory. So I personally gave full thematic credit to anyone who captured something in the following categories:

-- A black-and-white (or grayscale) image prominently featuring a living subject (human or animal)

-- A black-and-white image of anything, so long as it was in portrait (not landscape) orientation. I gave BIG DNMC knocks to those who submitted landscapes in landscape orientation, even if they were in black-and-white.

-- The "risk-takers" attempting more creative interpretations of the theme, so long as the interpretation was sufficiently transparent. NikonJeb, yours was one of those I felt was entirely transparent, and so in my book the words DNMC never entered my mind, and I'm disappointed to think that so many voters would have failed to catch that.

In all honesty, the ones I struggled with the most were those that were only mostly or partly black-and-white and then colored in specific places (such as the eyes). I mean, I appreciate and understand the idea, but they were harder than even NikonJeb's to shoehorn into the challenge title.

In the end, I tended to give thematic credit to all but those photos that obviously were daring the voters to challenge their thematic connection with little attempt (even in the title) to make the proper connection. I would personally root for the admins in the future to perhaps leave no description unwritten, as titles are apparently not as self-explanatory as logics perhaps dictates they should be.

And that, folks, is my two cents. Thanks for listening!

-- Johnathan
01/17/2007 09:29:09 AM · #44
Jackson, I thought it was a nice image. I really liked that you had the nerve to enter such a shot! I didn't get to finish voting in that challenge... but I saw yours and gave it an 8. I thought the picture was nice, I LOVED your take on black and white, but I didn't care for the orange border.

I have been here 3 years now... when I came here, I followed every challenge to a T. I didn't do too great. So... I started thinking a bit differently... sorry, didn't want to make Gatorguy vomit again! hahaha

One of my best entries ever (for me, not anyone else) was my entry for the Flowers challenge. I spent hours prepping for this photo. I took a photo that I felt no one else would take. I felt that I had the ribbon winner right there in front of me.

When it came time for voting.... I didn't do as well as I thought. I got 121st place (which isn't bad in a huge challenge like that), but I was crushed! When I asked the community why it didn't score better... I was mainly given the response, "It was too weird for the flower challenge" or "That is not what I think of when I see a flower"

Of course it's not what you think of when you see a flower! I went one step ahead and thought differently. I went ahead and thought of something totally out there! It wasn't taken well by my fellow peers. And for that reason, I don't enter my shots like that here anymore. I have a mind that thinks way over there when others are thinking over here... I still take shots like that, but I leave them for me.

It's very hard to take a shot that you are so proud of and have others not feel the same way. It's hard to enter a shot like that and have others down it.

Sometimes... being creative gets you nowhere here. Sometimes...you just have to follow the rest of the sheep if you want to win.

Anyways, I commend you for entering a shot like that and for taking the nerve to go against the "norm". I wish more people thought like that. It would make this place more interesting - that's for sure!

I just had to enter my $3.50 here. :)
01/17/2007 09:37:11 AM · #45
Originally posted by holiday:

when i saw this picture in competition, i thought that the one who posted it has a great sense of humor, but now, seeing that it was not intended as a joke and that the photographer pretends that others should accept it as a black and white, even if it's obvious that it's not, i am kind of disappointed...


So just because his perception of black and white is different than yours that makes it wrong? That's a little ignornant if you ask me.

So, if there is a challenge for Rainbow... and everyone enters a rainbow.... but one person enters not a rainbow itself but a picture of something rainbow colored, are you going to vote that person down? Are you going to vote down anyone who doesn't share the same views on that challenge as you do?

The challenge doesn't say take an image and convert it to black and white... it says N/A. That means black and white could mean so many different things!

Try opening your mind

Message edited by author 2007-01-17 09:38:25.
01/17/2007 09:39:22 AM · #46
Reminds me of the saga of my self-portrait-as-raindrop, which finished next-to-last with my personal low score, but pulled 77 comments and 8 favorites. Challenge description said "show us your best side"; I believe my best side is my mind. How to show that? This was my answer. Didn't go over so well :-) But we had a heck of a thread afterwards... Here's part of what I had to say at the time, in my photographer's comments:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Unfortunately, what I am seeing over and over again (not just with my own images, indeed not even primarily with my own images) is that people seem to be "voting" in DEFENSE of their own point-of-view, rather than sitting back (as I believe they ought to, or what's the point?) and letting OTHER points of view sweep over them, trying to appreciate images as what they are intended to be rather than as what the viewer "wishes" they might be.

Let me reiterate: I'm NOT "whining" that I got a low score. The score's not important, and I didn't expect a high score in any case. But the huge conglomeration of 1's here is telling me somethign much more disturbing: "If you don't see it our way, you don't belong here."

I believe strongly that no image which is technically excellent deserves to be given a 1 or even a 3. I believe strongly that each of us should be encouraged to pursue our own vision, and the each of us should take pride & pleasure from watching others do exactly that. What we're seeing in this case is over half the people who voted on this image telling me it is worthless because it doesn't agree with their idea of what a self portrait should be. That's scary, really.

Here's a link to the image if anyone's interested; I'm not thumbing it so as not to visually hijack the thread: "I Am My Work".

R.


01/17/2007 09:41:55 AM · #47
Everyone has a different opinion of what the meaning of the challenge is. It is a shame that some people are unable to read the challenge rules...

Point #3 under Challenge Rules - Voting - You Should:

"keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic."

If you are too lazy to read the rules, then don't complain or flame people for making a unique interpretation of the topic... especially if it is a great picture.

I too did a double take when the image came up, but I gave it some thought and I then felt it was very clever. Good Job, nice pic. Made me chuckle.

Message edited by author 2007-01-17 09:42:31.
01/17/2007 09:43:48 AM · #48
Originally posted by holiday:

when i saw this picture in competition, i thought that the one who posted it has a great sense of humor, but now, seeing that it was not intended as a joke and that the photographer pretends that others should accept it as a black and white, even if it's obvious that it's not, i am kind of disappointed...


You know, the only thing that I have asked of you is that you open your mind and consider the possibility that there is another answer, a different perspective, maybe even the concept that this was a brave, but misguided idea, but you're basically just intent on your own point of view and refuse to consider any other alternative.

That's okay, it certainly doesn't make any difference, but I was kind of hoping that since you were so specific and adamant in your criticism that perhaps you would come up with something to support your side of the issue. But you haven't, have you?

You still haven't cited any definition, found any criteria, offered up *ANY* support for your notion that this entry doesn't adhere to any set standards.......so what ARE you trying to do by continuing to try and attack my entry, motives, or me personally?

You tell me it's a vanity issue? You tell me I have no sense of humor?

And this is constructive how?

That sure seems to me like you're attacking me on a personal level rather than citing reasons facts or examples to support your point of view.

Tell me about this truth, originality, and understanding you reference.

Would you at least try to explain these comments you keep making and perhaps, support them?

So far, all I have heard is obfuscation and some berating for my not meeting your idea of how the challenge was to be met.

You have not offered me one iota of facts or criteria.

Can you do that?
01/17/2007 09:52:13 AM · #49
I only voted on 20 or so photos in this challenge (which means my votes prolly got thrown out because I got too busy to vote.). To be honest, I think if I had seen this in the challenge, at first i wouldn't have got it (this coming from a guy who complained in another forum about people not getting his photo !!). But as soon as I opened the forum thread about it, before reading any posts i got it immediately. It's a very good interpretation of the challenge. Had i voted and got it during voting, this would have probably been my top pick in the challenge for shear ingenuity.

A lesson I learned this week is that with the challenges being only one line sentences (if that...) it leaves almost everything up for interpretations. Alot of us on DPC (including myslef) take so many of the challenges for it's technical interpretations and don't leave room for literal interpretations (if that makes sense). I think the only way to broaden peoples interpretations here on DPC is to do what you did. You get a slew of DNMC comments, when you know you hit the mark perfectly....post it in the forums and explain how you met the challenge. Eventually more people will be inclined to broaden their interpretations of the challenge. These last two weeks have definetely opened my eyes to try and search harder at finding an interpretation...and your photo just increased that effort.

Great job on the photo and keep up the good work. Keep coming up with good interpretations and don't just try to appeal to the masses. I think in the end showing creativity is what separates you from the norm.
01/17/2007 09:59:23 AM · #50
This archive foto also entered into a black & white challenge:

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/278/thumb/122188.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/278/thumb/122188.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Although channel mixer setting is faded to 60% opacity, colour is evident, and the original even in full colour is primarily a monotone due to the character of the interior. However I encountered a certain amount of the same criticism that it did not meet the challenge, and several messages from respected fellow dpcers suggested it was an unqualified entry and that I should self dq. That said - NikonJeb's entry is entirely appropriate to the challenge description as was mine.

Message edited by author 2007-01-17 12:23:10.
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