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06/15/2007 11:49:13 PM · #76
Doesn't matter if there are 2 billion or 5 billion....it doesn't mean they are right.

Personally, I don't see that Muslims believe in anything but killing and death to the "infidels".

Before you all jump on me...remember, that is how I see it. That is how I saw it as a little boy and it is how I see it now...in Africa and the Middle East.

I'm sure it is the same with many Muslins...they grew up thinking I'm the infidel and need to be exterminated.

Originally posted by OmanOtter:


Now, given that the world has something like 2 billion Muslims, that's a lot of people right there that reject evolution -- even before you count anyone who isn't a Muslim.

AND THEY ARE NOT UNTHINKING IDIOTS WHO CAN JUST BE MOCKED AND DISMISSED. There are many educated, sophisticated and intelligent people among them -- just as in the West.


06/15/2007 11:50:43 PM · #77
Originally posted by PapaBob:

[
And if evolution is still happening why are there no species found that are partially evolved, shouldn't we have part monkeys part man species all around (present company excluded..lol). I know the argument will be there was something that triggered the change that no longer exists but then if that is the case evolution must not be happening anymore.


But there are! We are all still evolving! It's very slow, but who knows what we will look like 20,000 years from now?!
06/15/2007 11:52:42 PM · #78
Does anyone is their heart of hearts really believe we just occurred by accident? Magic and sorcery? I think not! There is overwhelming evidence for intelligent design, and a sudden start. And if you really believe in all the evolution crap, just walk into a museum and ask to see all the intermediate fossils. I mean, since we all evolved over billions of years and all there should be countless amounts of them.....right? Then how come we cannot find any? hmmmmmmm
06/15/2007 11:55:46 PM · #79
Originally posted by kenskid:


I'm sure it is the same with many Muslins...they grew up thinking I'm the infidel and need to be exterminated.



As you said, you are no different than them who think like that, thus you lose the credibility to criticise them.
06/15/2007 11:57:13 PM · #80
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Now, it seems to me that many people on the DPC lean to the left politically.


Huh? Where are these people? I'd like to meet them!

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

How will the Western left reconcile its disdain for creationism with its advocacy of multiculturalism?


Yes it's much easier to be consistent when you're intolerant and judgmental. The right have the advantage there.
06/15/2007 11:57:47 PM · #81
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by yanko:

How can something start to fly when it previously couldn't? It's not like the example of your iguana where due to desperation some took a chance and ventured into the water and those survived and procreated while the others died off. How can something like that happen with flight? You either can fly or you can't.


This is the usual position of those who don't understand evolution at all...


That was my point especially if you don't believe the earth is billions of years old.
06/16/2007 12:01:25 AM · #82
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by wsl:

Well according to the bible, every day to him is equal to a 1000 years to us, so that could have been 6000 years.


Regardless of time scale, there are some fundamental problems with the type and order of the things created. Pick your favorite version of Genesis and take a close look: the land and water of earth existed before the stars (and no mention of other planets). There were evenings and mornings, and light in general, several "days" before there were any stars (compact fluorescents maybe?). There was grass and trees before there was a sun for photosynthesis or heat, and fruit before there were any animals for pollination. Those were lean times for the carnivorous plants.

Where exactly do fossils fit into this? Whales and cattle were certainly important enough to spell out by name, but T-rex, Titanosaurs and 30 foot flying reptiles don't get a mention. Maybe the early scribes left out some key sentences... "Let most of the animals that ever lived drop dead and instantly turn to stone before I create man so that he may haveth a hobby digging them up later. Sorteth the species into different layers of rock by age and reset the dates on atomic decay to make them appeareth millions of years older than they really are. Let there be primitive man-like hominids mixed in there just to confuseth him."

Life is apparently too complex to have formed on its own, so it must have been created by something infinitely MORE complex that just always existed- even before there was a place to exist. Man was created from clay rather than just poofed onto the stage like the clay itself, and in the image of an entity without form. He is made with special attention by a perfect being, yet designed to be imperfect so that a strategically placed trap will cause him to be banned immediately from the pool area and all of his decscendents cursed from birth as unworthy without salvation.

Those who do not believe in miracles need look no further than those in the 21st century who would accept such stories as historical fact. ;-)


Oh I know, I was just pointing out a problem with those that quote the bible, but only reference part of it. And the actual bible we have today is only pieces of the original. There's no way to convince what you believe is wrong, and the likewise. And thats where the issue of why people get upset that can't handle a debate without taking it personal. I have no problem hearing both sides out, and eventually just believing what feels best for me, until proof is shown.

As for fossils and how dinosaurs died, there's a million and one theories, and all are possible but we will almost never know for sure. But man has been causing the extinction of other men and species since we developed the need to spread out across the globe. Bacteria (which amazingly has stayed the same, only adapted to survive our attempts to kill certain virii) has been spread from one area to another that it wasn't, by man and animals (rats and black plague). We wiped out indians, and some region specific species that way, maybe man, even early pre-adapted man, brought new ways of those dinosaurs being wiped out which spread faster than any catastrophe would cause.

Until we can travel back in time, or recreate the past and see it first hand, its all speculation.
06/16/2007 12:02:48 AM · #83
Originally posted by kenskid:

Personally, I don't see that Muslims believe in anything but killing and death to the "infidels".

Before you all jump on me...remember, that is how I see it. That is how I saw it as a little boy and it is how I see it now...in Africa and the Middle East.

I'm sure it is the same with many Muslins...they grew up thinking I'm the infidel and need to be exterminated.
[/quote]

Wow! You need to get out of the West for a bit and learn! Most of the Muslims I know (and I know an awful lot of Muslims) are gentle, kind and friendly people. Most of them are more hospitable than most Westerners I have ever met. They would give you the shirt off their back.

Keep in mind who it is that's telling you this -- I'm an active duty U.S. Marine who fought in Iraq -- not some anti-American, dope-smoking, koombayah-singing, wierdo-freak. So I'm not just pre-disposed to say that everyone is wonderful. Some people do need a bullet in the brain. But that comment was unfortunate.

06/16/2007 12:04:45 AM · #84
Originally posted by PapaBob:

And if evolution is still happening why are there no species found that are partially evolved, shouldn't we have part monkeys part man species all around (present company excluded..lol). I know the argument will be there was something that triggered the change that no longer exists but then if that is the case evolution must not be happening anymore.


From Wikipedia

Opportunity
Isolated ecosystems, such as archipelagongos and mountain areas, can be colonized by a species which, upon establishing itself, undergoes rapid divergent evolution. Monotremes and marsupials are examples of geographic isolation. Monotremes evolved before the evolution of placental mammals, and they are found today only in Australia, an island. Marsupials, which also evolved before the appearance of placental mammals are also common in Australia. In Australia, marsupials evolved to fill many ecological niches that placental mammals fill on other continents.

Richard Leakey (see below) wrote, "Biologists who have studied the fossil record know that when a new species evolves with a novel adaptation, there is often a burgeoning of descendent species over the next few million years expressing various themes on that initial adaptation - a burgeoning known as adaptive radiation. The Cambridge University anthropologist Robert Foley has calculated that if the evolutionary history of the bipedal apes followed the usual pattern of adaptive radiation, at least sixteen species should have existed between the group's origin 7 million years ago and today."

Extinction

Adaptive radiation can also occur after mass extinctions. The best example of this is after the Permian-Triassic extinction event, where biodiversity increased massively in the Triassic. The end of the Ediacaran and the beginnings of multicellular life lead to adaptive radiations and the genesis of new phyla in the Cambrian period.

Divergent evolution occurs when two or more biological characteristics have a common evolutionary origin but have diverged over evolutionary time. This is also known as adaptation or adaptive evolution. These characters can be observable structures from different species or they can be molecular entities, such as genes or pathways. This is a kind of relationship observed in evolutionary biology.

Divergent evolution can be seen in some higher-level characters of structure and function that are readily observable in organisms. For example, the vertebrate limb is one example of divergent evolution. The limb in many different species has a common origin, but has diverged somewhat in overall structure and function.

Alternatively, "divergent evolution" can be applied to molecular biology characteristics. This could apply to a pathway in two or more organisms or cell types, for example. This can apply to genes and proteins, such as nucleotide sequences or protein sequences that derive from two or more homologous genes. Both orthologous genes (resulting from a speciation event) and paralogous genes (resulting from gene duplication within a population) can be said to display divergent evolution. Because of the latter, it is possible for divergent evolution to occur between two genes within a species.

Divergent evolution and convergent evolution are distinct. In the case of divergent evolution, similarity is due to the common origin, such as divergence from a common ancestral structure or function has not yet completely obscured the underlying similarity. In contrast, convergent evolution arises when there are some sort of ecological or physical drivers toward a similar solution, even though the structure or function has arisen independently, such as the different characters converge on a common, similar solution from different points of origin.


06/16/2007 12:05:25 AM · #85
1

Message edited by author 2007-06-16 00:06:18.
06/16/2007 12:07:11 AM · #86
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Now, it seems to me that many people on the DPC lean to the left politically.


Huh? Where are these people? I'd like to meet them!

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

How will the Western left reconcile its disdain for creationism with its advocacy of multiculturalism?


Yes it's much easier to be consistent when you're intolerant and judgmental. The right have the advantage there.


Huh? I was intolerant and judgmental?! WTF??? Smoke another one!!
06/16/2007 12:08:58 AM · #87
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Now, given that the world has something like 2 billion Muslims, that's a lot of people right there that reject evolution -- even before you count anyone who isn't a Muslim.


A quick check of online sources appears to put the number at around 1.3 billion (slightly more than the number of Nonreligious, Agnostic, or Atheist). Out of curiosity, what percentage of Muslims are educated in schools NOT run by Muslim clerics? I don't know the answer, but my understanding is that Muslims tend to be more immersed in their faith than other groups. It seems to me that anyone raised from childhood in a strictly religious setting (of any faith) and taught that opposing views are not only wrong, but grounds for severe punishment, isn't exactly free to believe anything BUT what he's been told all his life. Given the widespread misperceptions of evolutionary theory even in Western cultures, I certainly wouldn't expect those in much more "protected" cultures to have a high rate of acceptance.
06/16/2007 12:10:22 AM · #88
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by posthumous:


Yes it's much easier to be consistent when you're intolerant and judgmental. The right have the advantage there.


Huh? I was intolerant and judgmental?! WTF??? Smoke another one!!


I wasn't talking about you! Just making a point about why the left might seem self-contradictory. Whenever you espouse tolerance you are going to complicate things.
06/16/2007 12:10:31 AM · #89
Originally posted by kenskid:

Doesn't matter if there are 2 billion or 5 billion....it doesn't mean they are right.

Personally, I don't see that Muslims believe in anything but killing and death to the "infidels".

Before you all jump on me...remember, that is how I see it. That is how I saw it as a little boy and it is how I see it now...in Africa and the Middle East.

I'm sure it is the same with many Muslins...they grew up thinking I'm the infidel and need to be exterminated.



This is why TV is bad for you. Read some books, learn some history, go out and photograph and talk to a few. Yes, where you live, it might be a certain way because of current circumstances, but if you allow yourself to follow the same path, you will not allow it to change.

You believe in evolution, yet you refuse to let your belief in the stereotype evolve past hatred and dislike? Why is it that you can believe in the evolution of species, but not the evolution of thought towards others? Change has to start somewhere, and if you think 1 person can't make a change, then we truely are destined to repeat our history of destroying ourselves.
06/16/2007 12:11:09 AM · #90
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Now, given that the world has something like 2 billion Muslims, that's a lot of people right there that reject evolution -- even before you count anyone who isn't a Muslim.


My Molecular Evolution professor in college was a devout Muslim.
06/16/2007 12:11:20 AM · #91
Originally posted by wsl:

We wiped out indians, and some region specific species that way, maybe man, even early pre-adapted man, brought new ways of those dinosaurs being wiped out which spread faster than any catastrophe would cause.


Um... the dinosaurs were apparently long gone before primates of ANY kind appeared, much less man. :-/
06/16/2007 12:12:51 AM · #92
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I don't think we are an accident, but I also don't believe creation was done in six literal days. I also don't believe the Earth is only thousands of years old.

Does that conflict with my Christian views? No. I don't interpret the Bible literally. I don't think God intended me to.

FWIW, call my beliefs Supervised Evolution, if ya will.


Personally, I think aliens started it all. Naturally they came from another universe, which had different laws of science that easily explained their existence. However, you on the other hand are the result of a paradox involving cheese and a horny alien goofying around.
06/16/2007 12:20:25 AM · #93
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

...Muslims believe that the Qur'an is word-for-word a dictation directly from God to the Prophet Mohammed via the Angel Jibril (Gabriel) in Arabic. This is an extremely important point, because it prevents them from dismissing anything at all that is in the Qur'an and drastically limits the amount of personal interpretation available to a Muslim.


Could there be any more extreme difference of interpretation than Muslims who view Islam as a religion of peace and those who would kill children or even fellow Muslims in the name of Islam? With such a common basis of faith, you'd think Sunnis and Shiites wouldn't find it necessary to be mortal enemies. :-/
06/16/2007 12:22:20 AM · #94
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by wsl:

We wiped out indians, and some region specific species that way, maybe man, even early pre-adapted man, brought new ways of those dinosaurs being wiped out which spread faster than any catastrophe would cause.


Um... the dinosaurs were apparently long gone before primates of ANY kind appeared, much less man. :-/


Apparently. Hense my Maybe above. Its all theory. The first Dinosaur bones were discovered in 1770. It wasn't until 1855 that the Archaeopteryx (first bird) so for 85 years, all the fossils were believed to be reptile. Now fast forward to current day, and how many old species are now being discovered to have feathers and could very likely have been birds and not reptiles since the 2 species still today closely resemble each other. We're still discovering human excavations, let alone still learning more from fossils everyday. We could turn out the fossil remains of a T-rex with a primate's remains tomorrow or sometime in the next 100 years. We don't know everything thats happened, so its all a bunch of could be's or well according to what we know nows.

You could very well be right about everything. And something might be learned tomorrow that proves it. Or something could be learned tomorrow that totally disproves it. Thats the wonderful world of science :)
06/16/2007 12:26:14 AM · #95
Originally posted by kenskid:

Doesn't matter if there are 2 billion or 5 billion....it doesn't mean they are right.

Personally, I don't see that Muslims believe in anything but killing and death to the "infidels".

Before you all jump on me...remember, that is how I see it. That is how I saw it as a little boy and it is how I see it now...in Africa and the Middle East.

I'm sure it is the same with many Muslins...they grew up thinking I'm the infidel and need to be exterminated.


Rather sad that you have such a skewed view of such a wide segment of society. I do pity you and your narrow views in this regard, and would urge you to reach out and strive to meet members of the Muslim community, and learn that they, not unlike you are capable of love, kindness, compassion and a myriad of other sentiments.

The views you express are those of one who has lived in isolation, devoid of any meaningful contact with people from other segments of society.

Reach out to those you misunderstand, you may be very pleasantly surprised.

Ray
06/16/2007 12:29:13 AM · #96
I have a question: if aliens showed up today and said "We did it" would you believe them?

How about if they pointed out parts of the Bible and explained it or showed video of the event?

Last question: if they did, would we have an end to religious wars? (hard question, I know).
06/16/2007 12:35:59 AM · #97
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I have a question: if aliens showed up today and said "We did it" would you believe them?

How about if they pointed out parts of the Bible and explained it or showed video of the event?

Last question: if they did, would we have an end to religious wars? (hard question, I know).


Would their videos that pointed out these events fall under basic or advanced editing? Post Processing has a way to make you see something thats not there.... Would cloning out a stray dinosaur or 2 that couldn't fit on Noah's Ark be considered a DQ? and what if Buddah was friend voting for Evolution?
06/16/2007 12:39:23 AM · #98
Originally posted by wsl:

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I have a question: if aliens showed up today and said "We did it" would you believe them?

How about if they pointed out parts of the Bible and explained it or showed video of the event?

Last question: if they did, would we have an end to religious wars? (hard question, I know).


Would their videos that pointed out these events fall under basic or advanced editing? Post Processing has a way to make you see something thats not there.... Would cloning out a stray dinosaur or 2 that couldn't fit on Noah's Ark be considered a DQ? and what if Buddah was friend voting for Evolution?


:-P LMAO ... yeah, us Photographers would probably be a bit skeptical of the visual evidence, since we know Aliens have Photoshop CS103.
06/16/2007 12:40:08 AM · #99
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I have a question: if aliens showed up today and said "We did it" would you believe them?

How about if they pointed out parts of the Bible and explained it or showed video of the event?

Last question: if they did, would we have an end to religious wars? (hard question, I know).


To your last question: No. (Unless they provide some alternative to gas).The modern wars no longer have anything to do with religion anymore..its all about power.
06/16/2007 12:40:20 AM · #100
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I have a question: if aliens showed up today and said "We did it" would you believe them?

How about if they pointed out parts of the Bible and explained it or showed video of the event?

Last question: if they did, would we have an end to religious wars? (hard question, I know).


I'm pretty sure that video has already been posted to YouTube and few are taking it seriously.

As for your last question... hell no. Religion doesn't cause wars. Never has. People's fears do. That and a need for resources and power.

Message edited by author 2007-06-16 00:40:50.
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