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06/16/2007 12:44:07 AM · #101
Originally posted by karmat:

I guess since you started this thread, the other brazillion discussions of it on this site weren't involved, or detailed, enough?


Yawn...Another admin trying to quell fun discussions...
06/16/2007 12:47:20 AM · #102
Originally posted by smardaz:

Originally posted by jbsmithana:

Originally posted by smardaz:

I have actually studied evolution pretty extensively and have found it to have so many holes that it's quite amazing to me that people believe it. There are so many amazing facts about our bodies,nature and the universe that it is out of the realm of possibility for me to think that it all just came about by chance.
If I showed you the watch on my wrist and told you it just evolved there due to my species need to know the time you would call me crazy but science is ready and willing to attribute this same theory to the FAR more complex universe.
But as we like to say on this site, this is, after all, JMO. :)


But you see the watch on your wrist did evolve. It did not just appear. In biblical times they had no such thing as a watch. But over time our ability to tell time evolved. That evolution was due to the need of the species to have a more precise measurement fo time.

edit: I should add that I do not discount a "god". I just think that the argument over evolution and creationism is crazy. Neither can be proven but at least some of the science in evolution can be proven. There are just too many religions in the world to say which one is correct.


The watch was created...By an intelligent designer...


Got me there. LOL. I guess that means we are the creator, which is likely since we created all the teaching and written record.

Message edited by author 2007-06-16 01:13:26.
06/16/2007 12:48:16 AM · #103
"The Varieties of Scientific Experience" is a transcript of Carl Sagan's 1985 Gifford Lectures. It is a VERY enlightening book indeed. Gotta love Carl!
06/16/2007 12:48:17 AM · #104
Adam's 2 Pennies:

1) Fine, the lack of "intermediary fossils" in some evolutionary chains and the continued existence of monkeys shows that evolution could be flawed. (It doesn't.)

But then how do you explain virus and bacterial mutations (read:evolutions) that can be readily observed in short spans of time? Is God hard at work 'designing' newer and newer strains, or could it be that these primitive, and quickly replicating organisms respond to changes (like anti-biotics in your system...) to stay alive in their host environment?

2) Religion is inherently divisive: What is the point in engaging in any relations with a human of another faith if you know deep in your heart that they are going to 'hell' (or the equivalent) for the rest of eternity for coveting a God who is different from your own?

The logic is inescapable: affirming the veracity of one religion precludes the possibility of any other. After all, it could not be so that both the bible AND the Koran are correct, as there cannot be more than one correct version of history or interpretation of reality. They are mutually exclusive.

Couple this with the fact that the vast majority of religious folk believe in their respective religions because they inherited them from their parents (as opposed to studying them all and then choosing the one that makes the most sense...), and you can see why I find the rationale for devotion to any *particular* religion to be rather peculiar.

3) Science is not perfect, but as a PROCESS (not a religion...) it remains our only way to learn about reality. Sure, we don't understand quantum physics, but at one point in our history we thought the earth was flat too. The key here is PROGRESS, which is only achieved through sustained, objective, peer-reviewed analysis of the observable world we live in. NOT antiquated religious dogma which discourages condom use in AIDs-infested Africa, demands the subordination of women (honor killings??!!), and plays a large role in the turmoil currently witnessed in the Middle East, just to scratch the surface.

Sorry for the rant but I feel passionate about this :)
06/16/2007 01:14:44 AM · #105
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by wsl:

Well according to the bible, every day to him is equal to a 1000 years to us, so that could have been 6000 years.


Regardless of time scale, there are some fundamental problems with the type and order of the things created. Pick your favorite version of Genesis and take a close look: the land and water of earth existed before the stars (and no mention of other planets). There were evenings and mornings, and light in general, several "days" before there were any stars (compact fluorescents maybe?). There was grass and trees before there was a sun for photosynthesis or heat, and fruit before there were any animals for pollination. Those were lean times for the carnivorous plants.

Where exactly do fossils fit into this? Whales and cattle were certainly important enough to spell out by name, but T-rex, Titanosaurs and 30 foot flying reptiles don't get a mention. Maybe the early scribes left out some key sentences... "Let most of the animals that ever lived drop dead and instantly turn to stone before I create man so that he may haveth a hobby digging them up later. Sorteth the species into different layers of rock by age and reset the dates on atomic decay to make them appeareth millions of years older than they really are. Let there be primitive man-like hominids mixed in there just to confuseth him."

Life is apparently too complex to have formed on its own, so it must have been created by something infinitely MORE complex that just always existed- even before there was a place to exist. Man was created from clay rather than just poofed onto the stage like the clay itself, and in the image of an entity without form. He is made with special attention by a perfect being, yet designed to be imperfect so that a strategically placed trap will cause him to be banned immediately from the pool area and all of his decscendents cursed from birth as unworthy without salvation.

Those who do not believe in miracles need look no further than those in the 21st century who would accept such stories as historical fact. ;-)


Sounds like Mark Twain.
06/16/2007 01:55:17 AM · #106
These discussions amaze me with the depths we sink to, and the heights we stretch for to prove our points, to win our side.

If you are truly in the camp that says there is no god, and so we must discern our origins with scientific observation, why do you care if others want to belive in something bigger than themselves? What is the point of proving them wrong? Don't waste our time chasing the notion that religion is the cause of suffering around the world. It is the nature of man that causes suffering. If you deny God and therefore any divine nature attributed to Him, then you are forced to conclude it is the nature of man that generates religion, and therefore man is responsible for pain, sufering and death.

And if you are in the christian camp, whether you believe in the Gap Theory, Deistic evolution, allegorical interpretation of Genesis, or if you are a hard-core literalist- Can't you read the Bible and do what it says? There is nothing that calls for you to argue your point. You are to be a witness to the world of the love of God. The only time Jesus had a "rant" was in the temple, a week before his crucifixion, and it was because the religious leadership was allowing the Court of the Gentiles to be used as a place of commerce instead of a place for non-Jews to learn about God as ordered in Jewish law. While hanging on a cross, rejected by his own people and dying, Jesus prayed for forgiveness for the very people who put him to death.

If you believe in God, let Him prove Himself (read the first chapter of the book of Romans). And if you don't believe in god, why not evolve a little tolerance for those who haven't arrived yet.

My apologies for not addressing any specifics of other religions, but I sense that this thread is drawing its primary dividing line between Biblical creationism and non-biblical evolutionism.

Don't misunderstand, I enjoy a lively discussion. But I also know what I believe and feel no compunction to wrestle with you until you reluctantly agree that I'm right.

(I feel better now Thanks everyone who read all the way through.)
06/16/2007 01:56:29 AM · #107
This thread is funny and sad , just like the fundamentalist movement.

Originally posted by kudzu:


i've always though quantum physics was the closest thing to a proof for God as you could get...


Actually, if a god were to manifest itself at the U.N. and proclaim supreme rulership of the universe (performing all the miracles necessary to convince the world) that would be real proof.

Then we could put this debate to bed.

Until then,
I'll just sit here and hold my breath , waiting for a god to offer up a single shread of evidence for the existance of anything supernatural in this universe , ANYTHING.
06/16/2007 02:06:27 AM · #108
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by posthumous:


Yes it's much easier to be consistent when you're intolerant and judgmental. The right have the advantage there.


Huh? I was intolerant and judgmental?! WTF??? Smoke another one!!


I wasn't talking about you! Just making a point about why the left might seem self-contradictory. Whenever you espouse tolerance you are going to complicate things.


Oh, sorry.
06/16/2007 02:23:56 AM · #109
Originally posted by genghis:

This thread is funny and sad , just like the fundamentalist movement.

Originally posted by kudzu:


i've always though quantum physics was the closest thing to a proof for God as you could get...


Actually, if a god were to manifest itself at the U.N. and proclaim supreme rulership of the universe (performing all the miracles necessary to convince the world) that would be real proof.

Then we could put this debate to bed.

Until then,
I'll just sit here and hold my breath , waiting for a god to offer up a single shread of evidence for the existance of anything supernatural in this universe , ANYTHING.


I'm sure if there is a God the last thing he is worried about is providing proof of his existence to some schmuck on a small planet when he's got the rest of the universe to worry about. :P
06/16/2007 02:58:08 AM · #110
You see: the matter is not so simple that one can pick a side and snug up to it with total certainty. The question that is overlooked is the "driving force" behind creation. Observe the tenacity and the patterns that are employed to express the sheer force of life. Observe the sentient pinacle as expressed in homo sapiens. Look down the ladder and observe the order of life sprouting down to the trees that overpopulate their immediate surroundings with yet another possible extension of themselves. Look at life in all its wonder and the persistent replication of species. Look at these carefully and there is enough reason to wonder. Yes, we know a lot about the Moon, but we know very little about the core of our own earth. But let's keep looking at the order of the planets as they reside in our solar system. Some universal law keeps the machinery going. It does not matter if you know the diameter of any of the planets or their planetary orbs: it is nothing short of magic. If you admit wonder, then tell me: how far is wonder from magic? Think of the sun going through its undulations: a burning star pulsating and traveling through space and carrying with its' planets. You see, we can not really comprehend these forces even though we study them. The saga makes even the most conceited beings stand and take special notice.

So, let us suppose that you believe in evolution, such a belief does not negate a creator. If you believe in intelligent design there also remains many questions. If there was certainty about evolution it would not be called a theory. Has there not been enough elapsed time since Darwin to close the isuue.

But here we delve even deeper. You see, we are so small, so insignificant against the very forces that shapes us. You want to comprehend creation? You want to belittle it? Really? You believe that you are the master of your life and that you have a brain that can bring this entire puzzle to a palpable end? I don't think so, otherwise you would also know when your life here will be terminated. You can do all the research you want but when you see the parade of life with all the human emotion it may make you wonder what force in the firmament supplies the animation to play out your game in life. Do certain things evoke deep wonder in you? Admiration such as that exemplified by the courage of others? If so, then out of where are these feelings coming from. What we have here is a very complex situation with no easy solution. I would not dare pretend that I understand. We are talking major patterns and patterns beyond our understanding.

Well, you can call this unique experience of life anything you want. You can depart from the scholastic viewpoint of evolution as a theory and make it a certainty. But then you have an agenda to wipe out those that interpret life differently and pay homage to a superior Godly force. You see: evolution suggests that there is a ladder that has been climbed but when we look down the step right below us we are not very impressed. By this I mean: Look only at the roads we have laid out, the hospitals, our inventions to live out our lives. It follows that those right underneath us should have not as formidable but at least some sign of similarity even if inferior. Look and you see nothing. We then go into fine grades of homo sapiens. It is like we have left our ancesters way back in the dust of the road.

Of course, we are made of clay and we bear similar animal functions with the animal kingdom but look at the monkey and you see a separation that is too wide to reconciliate. Evolution would suggest that the rung before ours is a site to admire and this is not the case. Yet, research continues and much weight is given to this theory as it continues to accumulate its stats. In truth, even with the current weight of evidence there is not enough to render the evolution theory a fact.

I simply step back. I do not have enough material nor the mental scope to unify the mysteries of this creation. I give those of you credit who are bold to venture with dead certainty with your tiny minds. It makes you bigger than creation itself and good for entertainment sake. I do not want to reach beyond my capacity, it will do me no good to sound like an authority of things I know nothing about.
06/16/2007 03:59:01 AM · #111
Bottom line: nothing in the concept of intelligent design" precludes the possibility (or reality) of "evolution". Even could it be proven to the satisfaction of all minds that life as we know it in our time consists largely or entirely of "evolved species", this would beg the question "Who or what created the proto-life or ur-life upon which evolution worked/is working?"

Even if you can prove, or simply believe, that life itself arose from the "primoridal soup" in some spontaneous way, you need to deal with the creation of the universe itself, the concept of what brought being out of nothingness.

Forget the Bible, the Koran, everything religious, if you wish; think of these belief systems all as an attempt to articulate the presence or the reality of the Prime Mover. Whatever caused the universe to be, is that not what we mean by God? How is it possible to look with open eyes at the immense and universal magnificence around us and not believe, at some fundamental level, that there is a mystery beyond anything we can directly experience that informs the essential glory of the Creation?

R.


06/16/2007 04:39:44 AM · #112
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

How is it possible to look with open eyes at the immense and universal magnificence around us and not believe, at some fundamental level, that there is a mystery beyond anything we can directly experience that informs the essential glory of the Creation?

R.


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Message edited by author 2007-06-16 04:58:07.
06/16/2007 04:51:46 AM · #113
knowing whether or not we evolved won't fill up my gas tank.

06/16/2007 05:01:05 AM · #114
Originally posted by a1leyez0nm3:

knowing whether or not we evolved won't fill up my gas tank.


Interesting comment -- because you'll be filling it up with fossil fuels made from the remains of millions of your dead ancestors and other (formerly) living things that populated this planet over the last 60,000,000 years or so!
06/16/2007 05:04:39 AM · #115
Which would be easier to prove, evolution or intelligent design?
06/16/2007 06:50:27 AM · #116
All that being said- creation is not out of the question- so many things are brilliant and unexplainable. But strict fundamentalist creation- why believe that? Is it for racial superiority? GEnder superiority?

Do people really believe that "God" created women from men? thats such ludicrous bullshit. Wake up- men come literally from women. The idea of Eve from Adam and then Eve being the one who gave into temptation- man that has resulted in years of oppression of women.

Do people believe that God created All the races separately? Really? Was slavery easier if you believed that God make black and white people in isolation. Are there people in this day and age that feel races are different in anyway but skin color?
--- heres a thought---- did you ever see someone with down syndrome? no matter what race they are- they have the same characteristic look- same with dwarfism for that matter. No matter what you read in the Bible- we, all races, come from a common ancestor. God did not "create" black and whites as separate. Do I really have to say this?

You have to admit, once you read that Bible passage-"go and be master over the earth and animals"(paraphrasing) its easier to justify all types of things when it comes to the environment, etc.

And please don't even start with the concept of "Rapture." This wasn't even in revelations, this garbage was created by a preacher who felt that in the bad end times of the book of revelation, the true Christians shouldn't have to be put through hell on earth, so they would be beamed off the planet. If you believe in this- please look into it. Please reconsider. Please have a ginko biloba and an energy drink, and wake up. Life is not Star Trek.

And how about the ludicrous concept that the earth is only a few thousand years old? Flat earth all over again.

All I am saying is we don't need science to tell us all this, just common sense- And if you have a discussion- you won't "go to hell" or have lightning hit you. I'm all for mystery and unknown and even faith. I am also for being honest about things.
06/16/2007 10:52:20 AM · #117
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

How is it possible to look with open eyes at the immense and universal magnificence around us and not believe, at some fundamental level, that there is a mystery beyond anything we can directly experience that informs the essential glory of the Creation?

R.


It's very easy , if you free your mind of fear , and fundamentalist propaganda.

I dont live in fear of the boogie man , and I dont believe in ghosts, goblins, witches, warlocks, vampires, werewolves, bigfoot, dragons, unicorns, 700 year old ark builders, the tooth fairy, thor, leprchauns, mermaids, leviathan, behemoth, zombies, bleeding statues, santa claus, nessie, odin, allah, ganesh, gaia, jehovah , or any other childhood fantasy.

Once a person can accept the harsh reallity , that we are on our own , and must fend for ouselves in this universe , the rest comes easy.

But overcomming the fundamental fear of existance without purpose , is a tremendous challenge for those that have been "brainwashed" from birth.


06/16/2007 11:23:38 AM · #118
R. [/quote]

It's [b]very
easy , if you free your mind of fear , and fundamentalist propaganda.

I dont live in fear of the boogie man , and I dont believe in ghosts, goblins, witches, warlocks, vampires, werewolves, bigfoot, dragons, unicorns, 700 year old ark builders, the tooth fairy, thor, leprchauns, mermaids, leviathan, behemoth, zombies, bleeding statues, santa claus, nessie, odin, allah, ganesh, gaia, jehovah , or any other childhood fantasy.

Once a person can accept the harsh reallity , that we are on our own , and must fend for ouselves in this universe , the rest comes easy.

But overcomming the fundamental fear of existance without purpose , is a tremendous challenge for those that have been "brainwashed" from birth. [/quote]
[/b]

Actually, this is the only propaganda I have read on this thread. Sounds like you have a agenda.

Message edited by author 2007-06-16 11:24:42.
06/16/2007 11:27:40 AM · #119
Originally posted by doug61853:

Actually, this is the only propaganda I have read on this thread. Sounds like you have a agenda.


Please explain.
06/16/2007 11:35:17 AM · #120
Originally posted by genghis:

Once a person can accept the harsh reallity , that we are on our own , and must fend for ouselves in this universe , the rest comes easy.


You can't prove this so why are you stating it as fact?

You also say that people who believe other than you do are apparantly brainwashed. That's a logical falacy called Ad Hominem, which means focusing your arguments at people instead of discussing the issue at hand.

Message edited by author 2007-06-16 11:37:47.
06/16/2007 11:54:54 AM · #121
Originally posted by genghis:

Originally posted by doug61853:

Actually, this is the only propaganda I have read on this thread. Sounds like you have a agenda.


Please explain.


Sure. Those who do not believe in a God, Superior Being, Higher Power, whatever label you want to put on it for this discussion, often belittle those with different beliefs than their own. I know that I have won the arguement when the person stops talking about the issue, and starts to "cut down" the person who holds the opposite belief. I could give examples, but I hope you understand.

Sure, if you would like to put God in the same category as the tooth fairy, that that is your right. I give you that right. But you lose credibility when you do not give others the right.....not to talk about respect, (which is something that todays under 30 group has a hard time with...and I don't know how old you are)when you attack them for having an opposing point of view. Do YOU know all the facts? From your last post, it sounds like you do.

I am not going to get into debates about theology on here, because it most likely would not change your mind anyway, and would waste both of our time. But I leave you with this one real life incident. My wife was a missionary in Mexico years back. She and her group came upon a lame man, who literally had disfigured legs. It was obvious he would never walk again. Never. The man knew my wife was a missionary (and if you could see my wife, you would have no doubt because God literally does flow through her) and called out to her for help. They prayed for this man. And literally before there eyes his legs were healed and he walked.

Did the tooth fairy do this? Santa Claus? No. To put our faith in God on that level is an insult not only to those of faith, but to God himself.

My last point is I notice the anger and negativity in your post. God usually reveals himself to those who are open to Him, and wanting to learn of Him and about Him. If you do not want to do that for yourself, then once again, that is your right. But it does not serve you credit to attack those who do have an open mind and want the positive experience of knowing God.

Message edited by author 2007-06-16 11:56:30.
06/16/2007 01:25:25 PM · #122
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Bottom line: nothing in the concept of intelligent design" precludes the possibility (or reality) of "evolution". Even could it be proven to the satisfaction of all minds that life as we know it in our time consists largely or entirely of "evolved species", this would beg the question "Who or what created the proto-life or ur-life upon which evolution worked/is working?"

Even if you can prove, or simply believe, that life itself arose from the "primoridal soup" in some spontaneous way, you need to deal with the creation of the universe itself, the concept of what brought being out of nothingness.

Forget the Bible, the Koran, everything religious, if you wish; think of these belief systems all as an attempt to articulate the presence or the reality of the Prime Mover. Whatever caused the universe to be, is that not what we mean by God? How is it possible to look with open eyes at the immense and universal magnificence around us and not believe, at some fundamental level, that there is a mystery beyond anything we can directly experience that informs the essential glory of the Creation?

R.


I don't totally disagree with you Bear but even creationism begs the question of who created the creator? It is kind of like trying to think of infinity. Very hard for man to wrap his mind around. So for most organized religions that leaves blind faith. Another hard concept for many to wrap their minds around.

Message edited by author 2007-06-16 13:25:54.
06/16/2007 01:41:08 PM · #123
Ghengis: You have the right to be an atheist. But, to call believers "brainwashed" is just arrogant. You have no right to be so high and mighty. I'm curious about your beliefs, though. If it is true that there is no God, then doesn't it follow that there is no such thing as good or evil? Because, without God (and therefore, without an immortal soul), good and evil are nothing more than artificial constructs created by man to serve man. You may as well do whatever it takes to have a more comfortable life and to propagate your genes, because, without God, that's all that matters.

Neither does love exist, for it is another simple creation of man used for nothing more than propagation of the species. Just think, your mother does not love you; rather, her brain (nothing more than a pile of cells and neurons and such) feels protective about you because you contain many of the same genes. That's it. That's all! And you'll never meet a woman who'll love you (because love is not real). Nor will any children of yours love you (how could they?). Nor will you ever actually love anyone (it would be a figment of your imagination). Because love is nothing but an artificial construct -- an EVOLVED set of feelings that serve to assist in propagation and preservation of onesself and those who carry some of the same genes.

How depressing! You might be right, though. Given that that's the alternative, maybe I just need to believe in God. Without God, I have no value -- nor do you -- nor do any of us. We're no better than dirt -- literally! Everything mankind achieves is without meaning or purpose because, in the end, it's no better than what's achieved by a tree or a frog or a pile of horse shit. Depressing. If I believed that, I think I'd have to shoot myself.

Doug: Just checked-out your portfolio. For the husband of a missionary, you sure do take some sexy pics! Woo-hoo! I want to go to your church!
06/16/2007 02:06:03 PM · #124
Hey, before I go for the day I want to thank all the posters here. I have found this discussion interesting, informative and cause for deep thought. Thanks especially to Graphicfunk, Bear_Music and Omanotter who have posted some great food for thought. Not likley anyones mind is going to be changed here but seeds do sprout when planted well.
06/16/2007 02:39:41 PM · #125
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

If it is true that there is no God, then doesn't it follow that there is no such thing as good or evil? Because, without God (and therefore, without an immortal soul), good and evil are nothing more than artificial constructs created by man to serve man.


No. Whether created by man or God, they would still be created, and therefore artificial in either case. If, on the other hand, emotion and the sense of right or wrong were a development of evolution, then that would be natural. Personally, I would rather believe that achievements in THIS world for the betterment of our children and fellow humans, are what give us meaning and purpose. I find that much more fulfilling than damning the majority of the world's population simply because they don't share my beliefs.
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