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06/16/2007 06:24:32 PM · #151
Originally posted by formerlee:

Originally posted by UrfaTheGreat:

off topic!!!!

.... but unorganized religion and atheism is so boring... *pout* no challenge, no expectations, no need to strive for anything, no need to have a conscience... I tried atheism for one day [I was essentially the only person in my group of friends who was even remotely religious or straight for that matter and they egged me on].. not my cup of tea...

[I sound like such an ass... ]


I have pagan beliefs, I believe in a Creator of sorts, but I worship nature, the world that surrounds me. I trust in my ancestors, and respect them. I respect all things and take only what I need, and then I give back to Mother Earth. Am I a lost soul? Have I no need to strive to be a better person? I think not, I have no desires for material possessions. I do have a few examples of modern technology, but they give me comfort after a day at work. I can, however, live quite happily without the lastest, shinyest mobile phone/pda/laptop/car/tv/dvd.

You make your own path in life and follow it. Whether Christian, Muslim, Wiccan, Pagan or Atheist. Just be true to yourself.


I am very familar with pagan beliefs and I'm mostly emphasising on atheism in my over exaggerated views up there [I was 13 then so I'm projecting the views with the same shallowness].. also can't help it if my friends were the worst example of well... anything ^_^

religion seems so simple and yet it's such a puzzle.. I suppose it's putting the pieces together and finding the relevence to it all that fascinating to me..

I think science and religion walk hand in hand .. I usually put together both fields as references and find them linking together.. I mean in my first post the first verse I refer to is only understood by knowing our science, [regardless of whether we believe in the reference or not]..
06/16/2007 06:38:57 PM · #152
Well said Mamba. Each one's journey to enlightenment is unique and private. Each member of Gaia (Earth's original name) should have their own account of how all creatures came to be. The science is half of the account, while religion is the other half.

Without the core facts, one cannot manifest a theory. Theories are spawned when one has all the facts of previous practices registered.

DNA was never witnessed when formed. It's acids were never in raw form or broken down. Scientists never witnessed the coming together of Deoxyribonucleic acid.

Evolution depends on chance. It says that a tornado can rip through a jungle and form a 747 jet from blowing away and smashing all the elements together after a long period of time of trial and error. The raw materials (elements, energy) is all a biproduct of the universe, as are we ,and the specific connection with the universe is what sets apart man from beast, or microbe from plant.

The Intelligent designers went from Antartica to the moon in 1962. This group is the same group that Galileo, Newton, Nikola Tesla etc.. were tied to. Ancient wisdom was what they had from ancient civilizations.

We invented the Camera before the Light Bulb. Fishy. My theory is that the camera was necassary, the bulb could wait.

The universal and accepted universal law of Bio Genesis says that "All Life came from Life"

Only the elements are natural I say.

Message edited by author 2007-06-16 18:47:20.
06/16/2007 06:51:05 PM · #153
In case nobody else has mentioned it, I highly suggest Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion. Very good read, well argued and not at all hostile. He criticizes only where it's due.

I would say it's really required reading for any discussion like this, no matter what side of the table you sit on.
06/16/2007 07:14:54 PM · #154
Observe how easy many that do not even believe in God create a religion: First the formula: Create a deep vacuum of guilt. Allow it to derment a while and then introduce salvation and redemption. Old as the hills. Now look at the Earth Warming Religion. Their first object was to drive the guilt. Then they show you how you can do your part to redeem your sinful ways. Yes, while some junk scientist expouse it as man made, most scientist do not. But then, you do need facts to get in the way of faith. Look at the adherents of Earth Warming and we as the cause crowd, they are blind to the opposing views. The movement has evolved into a religion.

You see, there is a natural propensity to practice faith in the human being. Otherwise, you would not dare cross the street.

But it is alright. Many individuals believe that we are detached from nature and we are like aliens and down right intruders in the order of things. Same applies to the environmental movement. They believe that some power left them an earth for them to nurture and take care. They forget that the earth itself is not a settled and fixed entitity. The argument is too academic to address: The majority of people do not want to live in dirt and so much is done to clean up, but then, who says we are the keepers? When those earthquakes erupt and those hurricanes strike...Ah, such pretense. People always want to attach themselves to a noble cause stupid as some causes are.
06/16/2007 07:32:37 PM · #155
//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=genomeprj&cmd=search&term=txid9606%5Borgn%5D

This site was only just made available to the public (in non google engines)

HAARP System is a climate control system which serves as an Earth MRI machine to find oil pits underground. It's responsible for the CCD disorder in bees and the intrudes the order of things. The intense microwaves with an ERP of 1.7 Gigowatts can be focused in an area with a diameter of a meter. When the oceans are scanned, they heat up. When the oceans heat up, the cold air fronts twirl into a vortex with the properties of the golden ratio to create a hurricane. The golden ration applies to many things including; HURRICANES, GALAXIES, ROSES, SNAIL SHELLS, and yes, DNA. The spiral all have spaces with a ratio of 1.618. My, my, my. What else? when the oceans heat up the ice caps melt, and that causes TSUNAMIS.

But this is far from "Playing God" Far from it. Controlling weather is nothing compared to what the gods do. We will never be able to form the planets or create artificial suns.

Check out what they are doing in China now, it's called cloud seeding. You want a nice rainy wedding day??? Buy some clouds !!

Message edited by author 2007-06-16 19:34:05.
06/16/2007 07:38:19 PM · #156
Originally posted by UrfaTheGreat:

off topic!!!!

.... but unorganized religion and atheism is so boring... *pout* no challenge, no expectations, no need to strive for anything, no need to have a conscience...


If this is your perception of atheism, then I fear that you need to do a great deal of research in the subject matter as it is offensive to those that are atheist.

You would have us believe that atheist are devoid of expectations, aims, ambitions and a moral compass... and statements of this ilk truly are an affront to those who opt not to believe in a supreme being.

I certainly do hope that is NOT something that you truly believe.

Ray
06/16/2007 07:41:17 PM · #157
the theory of relativity written in the dead sea scrolls, and we would not have this thread.....

Message edited by author 2007-06-16 19:43:20.
06/16/2007 07:42:27 PM · #158
also,
'Cogito ergo sum'

Originally posted by idnic:

Je pense, donc je suis.
06/16/2007 07:42:53 PM · #159
Originally posted by RulerZigzag:

... I have patents here for 3D holographic televisions from 1940. I also Microwave patents from 1920. WIFI was discovered, (nothing is invented) in 1914. They just have to sell more HDTV's first, and Toasters. The way to maximize profits from technology is to introduce it in Intervals and milk the consumers.

First FAX machne, 1843.
06/16/2007 07:49:32 PM · #160
Originally posted by RulerZigzag:

Evolution is an uphill process. Evolution does exist, but only when activated and spurred on. A mutation occurs everytime DNA loses information, this is why 96% of Chimp DNA is Human DNA.


So when the information is lost from chimp (100% DNA) to humans (96% of that Chimp DNA), the humans with lost information are more advanced.
I wonder how much intelligent we could be if we lost , say 50 percent of chimp DNA.

Why don't you admit that the information you are claiming to be lost is nothing but replaced by better information and that my friend is evolution, not creationism.

06/16/2007 07:50:08 PM · #161
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Ghengis: ... If it is true that there is no God, then doesn't it follow that there is no such thing as good or evil?


...And just what exactly should we surmise by this comment... that those who do not believe in God are incapable of discerning good from evil, or that good and evil do not exist in their world.

I have no problems with those that venerate a supreme being, but I do take objection to the not so subtle inferences made that those who do not are somewhat devoid of a moral compass.

Just a thought.

Ray
06/16/2007 08:11:58 PM · #162
Who's come to slay the dragon?
Come to watch him fall?
Making arrows out of pointed words
Giant killers at the call?
Too much fuss and bother
Too much contradiction and confusion
Peel away the mystery
Here's a clue to some real motivation

[Chorus:]
All there really is
The two of us
And we both know why we've come along
Nothing to explain
It's a part of us
To be found within a song

What happened to our innocence
Did it go out of style?
Along with our naivete
No longer a child
Different eyes see different things
Different hearts beat on different strings
But there are times
For you and me, when all such things agree

GL.......
06/16/2007 08:38:40 PM · #163
Both good and evil must exist, since they both compliment eachother and cant exist without the other.

Every action has a reaction. Every force has an opposite that neutralizes it. Every atom has it's protons and also it's electrons. Protons never leave the atom, electrons are expendable. But I know that good will always prevail over evil.

God is the beuracracy of creation. We are left as god's directors, responsible for guiding life to adapt with the times. Isn't building a 747 with auto pilot intelligent design? We would of sprouted wings by now, or fins since Earth is a water planet. But we are creators of artificial intelligence, but still intelligence. So who/what are our creators?

I believe Jesus the Christ, Buddha and Mohammed were the same man too. They all claimed to be from up above and so what if Humans with more experience are watching us. They didn't create us. God/s did. But they sure control our evolution of consciousness. Afterall, "GOVERNMENT" is from greek or latin words meaning Control Mind.

06/16/2007 08:43:23 PM · #164
Originally posted by RulerZigzag:

Every atom has it's protons and also it's electrons. Protons never leave the atom, electrons are expendable ...

Perhaps youve heard of neutrons, and something called nuclear fission ...

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/676/thumb/506222.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/676/thumb/506222.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
06/16/2007 08:48:21 PM · #165
Originally posted by zxaar:

Originally posted by RulerZigzag:

Evolution is an uphill process. Evolution does exist, but only when activated and spurred on. A mutation occurs everytime DNA loses information, this is why 96% of Chimp DNA is Human DNA.


So when the information is lost from chimp (100% DNA) to humans (96% of that Chimp DNA), the humans with lost information are more advanced.
I wonder how much intelligent we could be if we lost , say 50 percent of chimp DNA.

Why don't you admit that the information you are claiming to be lost is nothing but replaced by better information and that my friend is evolution, not creationism.


The most simplest organism known to us has over 600,000 letters of information. Humans have 3 Billion letters of information, and all this information has to be precisely arranged. Each letter represents a protein and it's assigned task. The Human Genome Project are beginning to decode DNA right now. Their are DNA computers already built by the World's superpowers.

I believe in PanSpermia. Evolution that requires the seed/s first.

06/16/2007 08:51:13 PM · #166
I'd just like to write a bit about the creation story in the Bible. I really think it is a very complex, intricate writing that many 'think' they understand. I have also seen in my life and in others that many people believe things because of what they have been told by others, not because of what they themselves have studied or read.

The biggest thing for me is that when people say the Earth was created by God in 6, 24 hour days, is the the Bible doesn't say this! From what I read, Genesis 1:1 says "In the Beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," and goes on to explain then how God FILLED the earth and the heavens. From reading this, who knows how long the earth was around before God started to do anything with it? The bible doesn't say "on the first day, God created the earth.." No, on the first day, God created light... So to me, I can accept scientists telling me that there are rocks billions and billions of years old.

I am a solid believer in God and believe the Bible to be His absolute truth. I also can't deny what science tells me. I do not accept evolution as truth, as I believe God created humans the way we are today.
06/16/2007 09:03:51 PM · #167
Mulder what you are saying is that a supreme intelligent being created man and our suns, and planets? The bible is my favorite book. I set my ways in science, but the biblical drama, analogies, morals, and metaphors are so connected with Quantum Physics and Mechanics.

When the seed was planted. The ATOM/ADAM EVE/EVOLVED. Therefore a collaboration of ATOMS formed man over a span of 6 days. Evolution is process that takes place over a long span said Darwin. 6 Days is enough to resequence genetic codes to create a newer being.
06/16/2007 10:12:19 PM · #168
Originally posted by idnic:

Je pense, donc je suis.


I drink therefore I am.
06/16/2007 10:28:49 PM · #169
Originally posted by UrfaTheGreat:


and honour killings are a joke.. In a country where most women are in brothels because their parents sell them off..killings mostly happen because women happen to have rights to money that their parents, brothers, husbands can't touch.. money is always a factor in these kinds of murders....

remember between what a muslim does and a muslim should be there is widddddeeee gap.. ignorance is most rampant especially about their own religion..


Urfa: I'm not sure how the first part of your post related to what's been said about Islam and evolution. But, as for the second part, quoted above, which country are you speaking of? There are many majority Muslim countries in the world. Just off the top of my head, and to name only a few of them, I can think of Morocco, Mauritania, Senegal, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, Oman, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Indonesia. In which one of them are most women in brothels and sold off by their parents because of monetary rights? I don't know of a single one, and I've been to most of those I listed. In fact, here in Oman, I don't know of ANY brothels. But I do know where to find them in the United States.

"Money is ALWAYS a factor in ..." No. Sometimes. But honor killing has nothing to do with the subject and it's bad enough without introducing fallacies into it.

"Between what a Muslim does and what a Muslim should there is a wide gap." For some of them, like for some Christians and for some Jews and for some Budhists and for some lawyers and for some students and for some accountants, and for some policemen (you get the point), that is true. For others it is not.

The only reason I brought Islam into this was to point out that they are an example of roughly 20% of the world's population who, because of their culture and religion, find it nearly impossible to accept evolution. My purpose in that was simply to to make the point that you can't just write off the belief in creationism as idiotic if such a huge chunk of the world rejects it. That's all.
06/16/2007 10:45:13 PM · #170
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Ghengis: ... If it is true that there is no God, then doesn't it follow that there is no such thing as good or evil?


...And just what exactly should we surmise by this comment... that those who do not believe in God are incapable of discerning good from evil, or that good and evil do not exist in their world.

I have no problems with those that venerate a supreme being, but I do take objection to the not so subtle inferences made that those who do not are somewhat devoid of a moral compass.

Just a thought.

Ray


Ray: You've got my point all wrong. I'm saying nothing about atheists, I'm saying what I truly think logically follows for ALL OF US if there is no God. Let me put it in a way that you may find less offensive: If there is no God, good and evil do not exist. Humans have absolutely no inherent value beyond that of the chemicals which combine to form them because, at base, humans are nothing more than the sum total of the combinations of chemicals that make them up. I am nothing more than a bunch of chemicals in a test tube. I am incapable of love because chemicals cannot love. I have no spirit, no soul. Although I do have a brain, the brain is nothing more than a computer-like control center used to achieve my only function in life -- survival of my genes. Love is meaningless -- we feel love because feeling it assists us in passing on and protecting our own genes. It has no deeper value or meaning. Things which we take as evil are not inherently so -- we simply disapprove of things such as murder because, by collectively doing so as a species, we decrease the likelihood of some harm coming to us which would hurt our chances of preserving our genes.

It's basic sociobiology. Everything we do is for a purely biological purpose. Even the very belief that we have value and achievements and love and such exists purely because it is helpful to our ultimate cause of genetic survival that we do so.

On the other hand, if there really is a God, good and evil can be real. Spirituality and love can exist. Whereas if man is nothing but chemicals, how can man have a greater inherent value than, for example, algae?
06/16/2007 11:00:56 PM · #171
Those of us who are faithful to God are completely aware that God placed this "scientific evidence" for the gullible non-believers to find. It is they who are the fools. Those of us who believe in God know better than to fall for that. It's a test of his faith, and it's one test I am NOT willing to fail. Argue with me if you like. I'll just sit here and giggle at you. We'll see who ends up where in the end.
06/16/2007 11:30:34 PM · #172
Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:

Those of us who are faithful to God are completely aware that God placed this "scientific evidence" for the gullible non-believers to find. It is they who are the fools. Those of us who believe in God know better than to fall for that. It's a test of his faith, and it's one test I am NOT willing to fail. Argue with me if you like. I'll just sit here and giggle at you. We'll see who ends up where in the end.


Tell me Joe... if the non-believers are indeed so "Gullible" why is it that they aren't duped into believing in the "Almighty". Surely a benevolent God would not want to fool people and see them wander aimlessly throughout their lives, and then banish them from the Kingdom of Heaven because he guided them astray with his "Scientific Evidence".

I do feel for the poor Atheists you know... even God is against them.

Ray
06/16/2007 11:35:49 PM · #173
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Ghengis: ... If it is true that there is no God, then doesn't it follow that there is no such thing as good or evil?


...And just what exactly should we surmise by this comment... that those who do not believe in God are incapable of discerning good from evil, or that good and evil do not exist in their world.

I have no problems with those that venerate a supreme being, but I do take objection to the not so subtle inferences made that those who do not are somewhat devoid of a moral compass.

Just a thought.

Ray


Ray: You've got my point all wrong. I'm saying nothing about atheists, I'm saying what I truly think logically follows for ALL OF US if there is no God. Let me put it in a way that you may find less offensive: If there is no God, good and evil do not exist.


...Ah but you see, that is exactly the problem. To the Atheist there is NO GOD, and if we follow your logic, then they are devoid of the ability to discern between good and evil... unless of course your benevolent God forgives their trespasses and instills these virtues in even those who do not acknowledge his existence.

Having said this... if these Atheist lead exemplary lives, will God grant them access to heaven... or will he cast them aside to permit access to a "Believer" whose lifestyle was not be as exemplary as the poor forsaken Atheist.

The possibilities are endless.

Ray
06/16/2007 11:58:13 PM · #174
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Ghengis: ... If it is true that there is no God, then doesn't it follow that there is no such thing as good or evil?


...And just what exactly should we surmise by this comment... that those who do not believe in God are incapable of discerning good from evil, or that good and evil do not exist in their world.

I have no problems with those that venerate a supreme being, but I do take objection to the not so subtle inferences made that those who do not are somewhat devoid of a moral compass.

Just a thought.

Ray


Ray: You've got my point all wrong. I'm saying nothing about atheists, I'm saying what I truly think logically follows for ALL OF US if there is no God. Let me put it in a way that you may find less offensive: If there is no God, good and evil do not exist.


...Ah but you see, that is exactly the problem. To the Atheist there is NO GOD, and if we follow your logic, then they are devoid of the ability to discern between good and evil... unless of course your benevolent God forgives their trespasses and instills these virtues in even those who do not acknowledge his existence.

Having said this... if these Atheist lead exemplary lives, will God grant them access to heaven... or will he cast them aside to permit access to a "Believer" whose lifestyle was not be as exemplary as the poor forsaken Atheist.

The possibilities are endless.

Ray


Now you've almost got my point, Ray! Yes! Please follow my logic; but take it a step further. It's not that the atheist is devoid of the ability to discern between good and evil, it's that there ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS GOOD AND EVIL. They are artificial constructs useful and retained only because they are useful in assisting our genes to procreate and self-preserve.

Your question about whether God would permit a good atheist into heaven is unrelated to the point I am trying to make about the lack of meaning if God does not exist. Moreover, in answer to your question, how would I know? I certainly hope so. Finally, I'm not trying to convert you to anything. I'm simply sharing with you what I believe to be compelling implications of non-existence of God. These implications are not intended to convert you to belief in God.
06/16/2007 11:59:21 PM · #175
Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:

Those of us who are faithful to God are completely aware that God placed this "scientific evidence" for the gullible non-believers to find. It is they who are the fools. Those of us who believe in God know better than to fall for that. It's a test of his faith, and it's one test I am NOT willing to fail. Argue with me if you like. I'll just sit here and giggle at you. We'll see who ends up where in the end.


I think this is nonsense. God gave us a brain for a reason -- to use it. The characteristics and personality you ascribe to God are small and insulting.
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