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08/08/2007 09:12:04 AM · #26
Originally posted by kevip6:

A little off topic but still relevant to the thread...

I've been asked to attend a friend of a friends wedding as an extra photographer to take more candid reportage shots and to cover the reception when the main photographer has finished.

I wouldn't be getting involved in the formals or any of the other shots the main photographer is shooting and would stay in the background taking shots of guest whilst they go about there business.

Is this something they should clear with the main photographer as I wouldn't want to step on any toes.

I'm not charging for attending I was just going to make the prints availale for purchase.

Thanks


If your going to sell images check with the other photog and bride - most contracts state that the hired photog is THE ONLY photog, and selling images makes you a second, paid photographer - not that i've seen a photographer walk out over such things, but that's what the clause in teh contract usually states. And I sell reception and other images so your actions would potentially cut into my income - so any goodwill i'd have toward the B&G would pretty much be very tarnished over something like this.

I've seen photogs come very close to screwing the B&G after the wedding because of lesser things guests with cameras have done - it's not very professional, but what you're intending to do is not professional either - showing up at some other photographer's gig and trying to make money.
08/08/2007 09:28:41 AM · #27
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:


This is one reason you need to charge a fair price - sorry, but if she was paying you $1500 or $2500 or more you'd have gotten respect and she'd have told uncle dude to get out the way. Today $500 or $700 is not much - I spend almost that much in gasoline every month!


I so agree! infact I've now made it our written policy that the most we'll discount for 'special cases' is 20ish% (I'm way too much of a bleeding heart for sob stories.... gets me into trouble every time). fortunatly my wife is much more hard hearted then I am, and has promiced not to let me do things for cheap.
08/08/2007 09:29:34 AM · #28
Lol, maybe this is a gripe from the bride's uncle. :-) Funny to hear the other side.

What I sometimes do when taking an informal group shot at a reception and some of the subjects are looking at "snipers" (as I call them) taking shots from the side... I hit the DOF preview button which throws out about a second of light from the flash (which looks really cool with the Lightshpere attached). This usually brings the subject's attention right to me, then once the confused "huh?" look wears off and they realize what I'm doing, they smile and I take the photo.
08/08/2007 09:37:30 AM · #29
Originally posted by Telehubbie:

Lol, maybe this is a gripe from the bride's uncle. :-) Funny to hear the other side.


this man needs to be shot! what is he thinking?! the PAID photographer should get out of the way of OTHERS! wow...!!! well I guess I should be seeing things in a new light from now on, I should be more accomodating to the guest and if they're in the way of a great shot who cares... (was that too sarcastic?...lol)
08/08/2007 09:56:22 AM · #30
Marc - THANK YOU! I had totally forgotten about the 'modeling light' as a distraction / diversion!

ETA - Chris, is that YOUR statement on aug.7th, in the link above? Hilarious!

Message edited by author 2007-08-08 09:59:06.
08/08/2007 10:11:48 AM · #31
Actually, I think that guy has got a point. The pictures done by the paid photographer are for the B&G and MAYBE the parents. The rest of the family can pretty much just go to hell as far as official pictures are concerned. I say MAYBE the parents because as far as I know the only photos of my sister's wedding my parents every got were taken by me. As a matter of fact, I was madder than a wet hen that they paid another photographer, my brother and I were more than capable of handling it, and was orginially not going to bring my camera to the wedding...eventhough my sister told me she wanted me too, but my mother DEMANDED that I bring my camera. The only pictures my grandmother has of the wedding were taken by me. Eventhough, we were both really mad/insulted by her being there, my brother and I tried to stay out of her way.

She was really cool. She chatted with us about our cameras, lighting, setting up shots. The maid of honor disappeared for awhile, so she had me helping with my sister's dress/posing. All she ever asked of me and my brother was that we not fire our flashes until after she did, which we respected. Seeing how you all talk about family members with cameras, I really, really appreciate how cool she was, and hope I am able to be as cool as I do more and more weddings.
08/08/2007 10:25:31 AM · #32
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:

Actually, I think that guy has got a point. The pictures done by the paid photographer are for the B&G and MAYBE the parents. The rest of the family can pretty much just go to hell as far as official pictures are concerned. I say MAYBE the parents because as far as I know the only photos of my sister's wedding my parents every got were taken by me. As a matter of fact, I was madder than a wet hen that they paid another photographer, my brother and I were more than capable of handling it, and was orginially not going to bring my camera to the wedding...eventhough my sister told me she wanted me too, but my mother DEMANDED that I bring my camera. The only pictures my grandmother has of the wedding were taken by me. Eventhough, we were both really mad/insulted by her being there, my brother and I tried to stay out of her way.

She was really cool. She chatted with us about our cameras, lighting, setting up shots. The maid of honor disappeared for awhile, so she had me helping with my sister's dress/posing. All she ever asked of me and my brother was that we not fire our flashes until after she did, which we respected. Seeing how you all talk about family members with cameras, I really, really appreciate how cool she was, and hope I am able to be as cool as I do more and more weddings.


First of all, I am (and I'm sure most photographers are) fairly accomodating when it comes to peoples with camera's and I'm more than happy to accomodate them getting picutures (granted any parent that wants pictures can get a CD or prints from me). my issue is those who over do it... get in the way and don't respect that fact that we (the paid photogs) have a job to do.

really the wedding day isn't about the friends and family getting their shot in. the most important thing to me is that the couple have the best pictures possible to remember THEIR day.
08/08/2007 10:27:54 AM · #33
We did ALL the formals for my daughter's wedding before the ceremony. We made the first moment the groom saw her still special and an "event". They both said that although it would be nice to have that first moment as she walked up the aisle, the benefits for doing the photos early made it worth the trade off.

One of the benefits was that few people were around to get in the photographer's way. The other benefit for us was that the wedding party was still fresh and not tired out. We were at the reception within about 20 minutes of the guests arriving too.

I know not every b/g will go for that, but to help with the problem being mentioned, it does help and might be something to encourage.

Edited to add: It was VERY hard for me to not have my camera there! In retrospect, I think I would have liked to have taken just a shot or two candids while getting ready. I don't know. It's a tough decision to make because I certainly wanted to have all my attention on helping my daughter. I did have all my camera gear together and ready to go out in the car just in case there was any problem with the photographer showing up. I've been doing that at every wedding we attend, but I tend not to bring it in and only have it there for emergency.

Message edited by author 2007-08-08 10:30:40.
08/08/2007 10:31:13 AM · #34
I did read thru some of the below but a lot of them have a lot of text and I just don't have that kinda time to read each one. So I will just post what in response to your original post.

I think that you should have it in your contract that NO flashes re allowed to go off during the wedding besides yours. If someone would like to take pictures so be it but they need to make sure that they stay out of your way. Have it in your contract that if you have to tell someone more than once to move that you will not shoot the wedding anymore or the price doubles. That way it will scare the wedding party into telling the family and friends to stay clear of pros. Also one thing you might consider is making a sign that you can post up on the outside of the wedding area, that says something like NO flashes, and stay away type deal (but make is sweet).

What the uncle did was wrong and I think you should have told him to stay out of your way. It's all fine and dandy that he wanted to take some shots but he needed to be reminded that he is just an average Joe.

JMO.

08/08/2007 10:35:37 AM · #35
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:

Actually, I think that guy has got a point. The pictures done by the paid photographer are for the B&G and MAYBE the parents. The rest of the family can pretty much just go to hell as far as official pictures are concerned. I say MAYBE the parents because as far as I know the only photos of my sister's wedding my parents every got were taken by me. As a matter of fact, I was madder than a wet hen that they paid another photographer, my brother and I were more than capable of handling it, and was orginially not going to bring my camera to the wedding...eventhough my sister told me she wanted me too, but my mother DEMANDED that I bring my camera. The only pictures my grandmother has of the wedding were taken by me. Eventhough, we were both really mad/insulted by her being there, my brother and I tried to stay out of her way.



Anymore, couples are asking for, and getting, the digital files and license to reproduce forever. That pretty much eliminates your concern about parents and other relatives or friends being left out in the cold. Also, I don't know of any photographer who would not gladly sell another album to the parents of the Bride and/or Groom.

Do you want to attend the wedding as a guest or as a photographer?

Assuming you have the skills and gear to actually shoot a wedding, you can do one or the other well, but not both. If you are a guest, I guarantee you will miss important moments while getting a drink, visiting with Aunt Mary or whatever. If you are the photographer, you don't have time to mingle, get drinks, visit with long lost relatives etc.
08/08/2007 10:36:39 AM · #36
Originally posted by cudjoem:

[quote=ragamuffingirl]
First of all, I am (and I'm sure most photographers are) fairly accomodating when it comes to peoples with camera's and I'm more than happy to accomodate them getting picutures (granted any parent that wants pictures can get a CD or prints from me). my issue is those who over do it... get in the way and don't respect that fact that we (the paid photogs) have a job to do.

really the wedding day isn't about the friends and family getting their shot in. the most important thing to me is that the couple have the best pictures possible to remember THEIR day.


Haha! My mother actually argued the opposite with my sister. She said it was a celebration of family, and not just them. Of course, that was when my sister told my mom to univite some of our family because they needed the room in the hotel to accomodate more of the groom's family. My sister made some of the brides on Bridezilla look sweet. But, she got what she wanted. If I got married and thought I should have a wedding that lavish, my parents would have no problem telling me to get bent.

I really like the idea of doing the formals before the wedding. By the time the wedding party from my sister's wedding got to the reception, the shrimp was all gone, and the bar was no longer serving free drinks. Do all of these bridal shots that I see here, happen on a different day all together?

I did a wedding from hell where I got volunteered, by my SO, to do a court house wedding for free. Anyway, it has turned into a complete nightmare with the B&G wanting more and more and MORE completely free of charge, when what I originally agreed to was a disk. I refuse to see the B&G, unless it's completely unavoidable, my SO and I have almost broken up over it. Now, THAT is a wedding from hell.

Message edited by author 2007-08-08 11:03:01.
08/08/2007 10:41:18 AM · #37
Originally posted by Lowcivicman99:



I think that you should have it in your contract that NO flashes re allowed to go off during the wedding besides yours. If someone would like to take pictures so be it but they need to make sure that they stay out of your way. Have it in your contract that if you have to tell someone more than once to move that you will not shoot the wedding anymore or the price doubles.

JMO.


Good luck enforcing that.

Are you really going to walk off the job? or double the price?

You might be able to do it once, but you'll be branded as either the "Photographer who quit in the middle of my wedding." or "The jerk who charged me double." Regardless of your reasoning, you'd have a hard time escaping that black mark on your reputation.

08/08/2007 10:43:30 AM · #38
Originally posted by Lowcivicman99:

I think that you should have it in your contract that NO flashes re allowed to go off during the wedding besides yours. If someone would like to take pictures so be it but they need to make sure that they stay out of your way. Have it in your contract that if you have to tell someone more than once to move that you will not shoot the wedding anymore or the price doubles. That way it will scare the wedding party into telling the family and friends to stay clear of pros. Also one thing you might consider is making a sign that you can post up on the outside of the wedding area, that says something like NO flashes, and stay away type deal (but make is sweet).



how on earth would you inforce something like that... I figure it would be very unpro to walk out on a wedding for ALMOST any reason, and the bad press from doubling your price because if something like that would be just as bad... in the end it seems like it would come off looking like an empty threat
08/08/2007 10:43:32 AM · #39
Ok my 2 cents. Be polite to UNcle bob and say something like "My job today is to take pictures of the B&Gs special day and I want them to be happy with the results so could you please work with me to make that happen" ANd if that didn work be a lil more forceful by saying hey your making it difficult for me to keep from having you in all my shots.

I had a similr experience recently shooting a wedding where when I got the shot set the whole fam jumped in front of me snapping like crazy, the runniest one was the huge lady and I heard a werid click werrrrr And I thought I was going crazy but it was true, she got right in front of me to take an instamatic of the bride and Grooms toast, was all I could do to not fall over laughing.

Best thing to do is learn to be a bit flexible and work around it as much as you can. After all your the professional there to capture the momentthey are the friends and family who unfortunatly dont know or think any better.
08/08/2007 10:47:04 AM · #40
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:

Haha! My mother actually argued the opposite with my sister. She said it was a celebration of family, and not just them. Of course, that was when my sister told my mom to univite some of our family because they needed the room in the hotel to accomodate more of the groom's family. My sister made some of the brides on Bridezilla look sweet. But, she got what she wanted.


I would not have wanted to be in that room... or within a block or two really... :)
08/08/2007 11:14:27 AM · #41
I was the "extra" photog at a friend's wedding and I definitely made it a point to stay out of the way of the guy she hired. He was a nice guy - he didn't speak much English and I'm not good at German, but we did the geeky "chimp" thing to see what we each got. And I'm glad she didn't hire me because the wedding was the first weekend in July and I'm still editing pictures. I figure were I to ever do it for real, I'd have to learn a better way than one at a time. :-)
08/08/2007 11:18:22 AM · #42
On a similar note. does anyone have a copy of their contracts that they'd like to share... I'm interested in seeing what others have included and exluded in theirs
08/08/2007 11:22:55 AM · #43
I'm looking at that Beginner's Guide. If anyone ever called my mother a SLOTH during the time of my sister's wedding (or if I ever get married), I would forget I'm a pacifist and knock them right into next week.
08/08/2007 11:28:40 AM · #44
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:

I'm looking at that Beginner's Guide. If anyone ever called my mother a SLOTH during the time of my sister's wedding (or if I ever get married), I would forget I'm a pacifist and knock them right into next week.


Tis thread has pretty much convinced me you're a PFB.

(Potential Future Bridezilla)

Maybe you can photograph your own wedding.

Message edited by author 2007-08-08 11:29:12.
08/08/2007 11:31:31 AM · #45
Originally posted by cudjoem:


First of all, I am (and I'm sure most photographers are) fairly accomodating when it comes to peoples with camera's and I'm more than happy to accomodate them getting picutures (granted any parent that wants pictures can get a CD or prints from me). my issue is those who over do it... get in the way and don't respect that fact that we (the paid photogs) have a job to do.

really the wedding day isn't about the friends and family getting their shot in. the most important thing to me is that the couple have the best pictures possible to remember THEIR day.


I think some wedding photographers occasionally forget that the wedding isn't about getting good photos. It's about two people expressing their love for each other in front of their friends & family (and perhaps their god), joining together and starting their life together.

Getting good photos should be far, far secondary to that. Yes the photographer has a job to do. But job #1 is not getting in the way or taking over.

Message edited by author 2007-08-08 11:32:01.
08/08/2007 11:36:36 AM · #46
Do yourself a favour and never shoot weddings. Using that `logic` it would be best if you didnt turn up at all.

Bottom line for me is, I DONT CARE if people take photos, all I ask is

1. Do not get in my way
2. Do not distract the B&G during the formals, actually, stay away.

The way I see it, the B&G have already paid me upfront, so apart from a few knock on sales afterwards (which to be honest are peanuts compared to the cost of the package) I have nothing to lose (monetary wise, and a lot of couples buy a DVD as well, so no knock on sales from that really). So the fact others are taking photos is of no concern, unless they get in my way or start telling me how to do my job.. Then I get annoyed.

ON a different note, this is my favourite wedding shot I have taken this year. Would not of been possible if family & friends were hanging around, quite a shy couple. They love this shot.

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Originally posted by Lowcivicman99:


I think that you should have it in your contract that NO flashes re allowed to go off during the wedding besides yours. If someone would like to take pictures so be it but they need to make sure that they stay out of your way. Have it in your contract that if you have to tell someone more than once to move that you will not shoot the wedding anymore or the price doubles. That way it will scare the wedding party into telling the family and friends to stay clear of pros. Also one thing you might consider is making a sign that you can post up on the outside of the wedding area, that says something like NO flashes, and stay away type deal (but make is sweet).


Message edited by author 2007-08-08 11:37:32.
08/08/2007 11:41:28 AM · #47
I hear an awful lot about assumptions of what the B&G want, based solely on the contract.

Here's a crazy idea: ask them up front what they want. Maybe they'd like family members to have an opportunity to take some posed shots. If so, just work that into the plan. Even better, make sure you discuss it with them - they usually won't have gone through this before, and won't know to cover it.

And if someone butts in, then politely and calmly ask the B&G what they want. Not in a snippy "I'm the paid professional here" tone, but "I'd like to get what you want. We've discussed formal poses, but would you like to let your family take them instead of me?" I'd bet almost everyone would immediately turn to their guests and ask them to step back for a minute.

Judi, you seem to do exactly those things, so good on ya! :)

Whatever you do, get your own ego 100% out of the way.

And cudjoe, since you said it at least twice, are you really, truly put off your game because the other guy had a canon? I've seen good-natured trash talk between folks, but this seemed like it actually bothered you.

Message edited by author 2007-08-08 11:44:39.
08/08/2007 11:41:40 AM · #48
Originally posted by Gordon:


I think some wedding photographers occasionally forget that the wedding isn't about getting good photos. It's about two people expressing their love for each other in front of their friends & family (and perhaps their god), joining together and starting their life together.

Getting good photos should be far, far secondary to that. Yes the photographer has a job to do. But job #1 is not getting in the way or taking over.


That's true...but as someone who just paid a photographer a good chunk of the wedding budget I would be unhappy if my photographer was either extreme...a bully or a wimp. In either case, I think it would affect the quality of the photos taken which is the bottom line to why I'm paying him/her. There should be enough self confidence to deal with the snap-happy relatives in a way that allows the photographer to do the job, while allowing the guests to get some shots. I really don't think it has to be all or nothing. Wedding photography skills include more than just taking the photos...you have to have excellent people skills as well. If you don't, I think you're in the wrong specialty.
08/08/2007 11:44:42 AM · #49
Yup, I agree with Deb. At the weddings I've attended since picking up the photography thing, I always make a point of introducing myself and ask the hired pro to let me know if I'm getting in the way. I tend to have more fun with the camera at the reception, anyway, and get totally different shots. More of the guests know me, know I'm a shutterbug, and have fewer reservations about pulling me aside to take some ridiculous photo or another.

As for wedding party shots, I think a "my time" and "their time" is appropriate. You, as the hired pro, have got the good equipment. If you've done it right, not even the better snapshots will come close in quality. I'd say give yourself the lions share and make it clear to the guests that they'll have twenty minutes for their own shots when you're finished.

Message edited by author 2007-08-08 11:59:00.
08/08/2007 11:48:33 AM · #50
Originally posted by Gordon:


I think some wedding photographers occasionally forget that the wedding isn't about getting good photos. It's about two people expressing their love for each other in front of their friends & family (and perhaps their god), joining together and starting their life together.

Getting good photos should be far, far secondary to that. Yes the photographer has a job to do. But job #1 is not getting in the way or taking over.


True, but those same people that are expressing their love, also have expressed their desire to have photographs made of their wedding.

And, those same two loving people will scream with rage until they are red-faced and hoarse if the photographer screws it up.
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