DPChallenge: A Digital Photography Contest You are not logged in. (log in or register
 

DPChallenge Forums >> Photography Discussion >> Is it Photography or Is it Photoshop?
Pages:  
Showing posts 1 - 25 of 144, (reverse)
AuthorThread
09/14/2007 10:44:47 AM · #1
Where do you draw the line?

There is a lot of discussion in other threads about this however I wanted to take it away from any particular challenge.

I start thinking that some images have gone over the line but then also start thinking about multi-media artwork etc. The line seems to be blurring more and more.

Edit: Before anyone else jumps to conclusions. I think it's getting pretty crowded over there anyway. This is not an argument for straight-from-the-camera.

Message edited by author 2007-09-14 17:44:19.
09/14/2007 10:52:10 AM · #2
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Where do you draw the line?

I think this excerpt from the Expert Editing rules is appropriate:
"Please remember, however, that this is a photography contest. You are encouraged to keep your entries photographic in nature, and voters are encouraged to rate entries accordingly."

However, even outside of Expert Editing, in Basic and Advanced you can alter a photo to the point where it's hard to tell it's a photograph originally.

So...remember, "voters are encouraged to rate entries accordingly".

If the voters approve highly manipulated photos on this site, then that trend will continue, and the makeup of DPC will change as well (for good or bad, depending on your POV).
09/14/2007 10:52:24 AM · #3
I know what you mean. I find it really frustrating that my submissions don't score higher and that part of the reason may well be my inability to use Photoshop.

I'd like to see a challenge where the only editing allowed was to save the image for web ie just crop and compliance with file size and picture size
09/14/2007 11:00:34 AM · #4
Originally posted by mileskea:

I know what you mean. I find it really frustrating that my submissions don't score higher and that part of the reason may well be my inability to use Photoshop.

I'd like to see a challenge where the only editing allowed was to save the image for web ie just crop and compliance with file size and picture size


That's called "minimal editing" and we have the ruleset, but it is rarely used.

R.
09/14/2007 11:04:02 AM · #5
I'm sure that's what minimal editing is.

But back to the original point of whether its photography or photoshop... there's been many threads on this recently and the debates never end. Photoshop is used to get the best out an image and an attempt to create on the screen/print what you see in your head... as i've said before it's like mastering music- taking the raw product and manipulating it to acheive the desired effect. The only lines ever drawn are comprised of personal taste.
09/14/2007 11:34:02 AM · #6
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Where do you draw the line?

The first line is drawn by the DPChallenge 'Powers-That-Be' and depends on the rule set in effect for a given challenge.

The second line is drawn by each voter and depends on factors too numerous to mention and way too complex and difficult to quantify.

IOW, there is no single line, but rather a different line for each challenge and each individual voter in those challenges.

09/14/2007 11:39:37 AM · #7
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Where do you draw the line?...


Don't draw any lines, and edit away to your heart's content to approximate what you previsualize. But...

let the result be credible.
If our skills match the sense we have of an image, we have something.
If we have developed a finer sense, we have a fine photograph.
If our sense is a little coarser, we will have added a little dross.

In a late age, like ours, it becomes increasingly more difficult to see.
It is no longer enough to name and capture a thing.
We have to sift through more and more dirt to get to a vein.

Which is not to say that there's no use for fill.

Message edited by author 2007-09-14 13:02:27.
09/14/2007 11:39:58 AM · #8
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by mileskea:

I know what you mean. I find it really frustrating that my submissions don't score higher and that part of the reason may well be my inability to use Photoshop.

I'd like to see a challenge where the only editing allowed was to save the image for web ie just crop and compliance with file size and picture size


That's called "minimal editing" and we have the ruleset, but it is rarely used.

R.


Shame because that would be interesting...
09/14/2007 11:41:28 AM · #9
Originally posted by mileskea:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by mileskea:

I know what you mean. I find it really frustrating that my submissions don't score higher and that part of the reason may well be my inability to use Photoshop.

I'd like to see a challenge where the only editing allowed was to save the image for web ie just crop and compliance with file size and picture size


That's called "minimal editing" and we have the ruleset, but it is rarely used.

R.


Shame because that would be interesting...


It DOES make you think before shooting :-)

R.
09/14/2007 12:33:21 PM · #10
I dont know why people complain about their pictures not doing well because they dont know photoshop..

DSLR's are only different from FSLR's in the fact that theyre digital. There is still post processing work to be done!

If you think not, you are foolishly mistaken. I mean you realize that even turning up the saturation or contrast in the camera is effectively going into a darkroom 30 years ago, right?

What if Ansel Adams never learned how to use a darkroom?

Dont expect a camera to take stellar pictures straight away. You WILL have to learn to use photoshop if you really want to improve your photographic capabilities. Its not cheating...its just the digital side of the antiquated dark room.
09/14/2007 12:44:52 PM · #11
Originally posted by adamlewis88:

... Dont expect a camera to take stellar pictures straight away. You WILL have to learn to use photoshop if you really want to improve your photographic capabilities. Its not cheating...its just the digital side of the antiquated dark room.

I believe that's not the issue. I'm pretty sure the OP expects some post-processing of photos. It's trying to decide when enough is enough. At what point does a photograph become non-recognizable as a photo and become more like digital art, etc...

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Where do you draw the line? ...

... I start thinking that some images have gone over the line but then also start thinking about multi-media artwork etc. The line seems to be blurring more and more.


edit to add quote from OP for clarification.

Message edited by author 2007-09-14 12:46:07.
09/14/2007 12:52:31 PM · #12
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by adamlewis88:

... Dont expect a camera to take stellar pictures straight away. You WILL have to learn to use photoshop if you really want to improve your photographic capabilities. Its not cheating...its just the digital side of the antiquated dark room.

I believe that's not the issue. I'm pretty sure the OP expects some post-processing of photos. It's trying to decide when enough is enough. At what point does a photograph become non-recognizable as a photo and become more like digital art, etc...



Barry got it right.
09/14/2007 02:31:10 PM · #13
It entirely depends on how strictly you intend to define "photography" -- whether it's a stylistic genre or a technique. The camera and film/sensor are tools for creating art, and have been used to create collages, bizarre effects, and all kinds of art practically since it was invented.

I think some people keep wanting to box "photography" into what might be called "artistic photojournalism" -- a strictly literal 2-D representation of a particular scene, when if viewed as a tool, it can encompass much more. It's a bit like saying anything which isn't a Gainsborough portrait isn't painting (though I realize some art critics have said just that).

I don't have the hand-eye coordination to draw or paint, so I use other tools to create an image, including a camera. Everything I create with such a captured image is still a photograph, regardless of how much I manipulate it. A negative printed through color filters and masks to produce a bizarre-looking print is still a photograph, a collage or multiple exposure is still a photograph, a super-macro abstract is still a photograph -- the camera, film, enlarger, paper, and chemicals are the same.

I have no problem with people not liking the result of certain effects or processing techniques, but I get annoyed with the assertion that they are not "photographs."
09/14/2007 02:38:21 PM · #14
Originally posted by GeneralE:



I think some people keep wanting to box "photography" into what might be called "artistic photojournalism" -- a strictly literal 2-D representation of a particular scene, when if viewed as a tool, it can encompass much more.


Ahem, Ive taken pictures from the box that look 3D
F/22 BABY!
09/14/2007 02:40:15 PM · #15
Originally posted by GeneralE:

It entirely depends on how strictly you intend to define "photography" -- whether it's a stylistic genre or a technique. The camera and film/sensor are tools for creating art, and have been used to create collages, bizarre effects, and all kinds of art practically since it was invented.

I think some people keep wanting to box "photography" into what might be called "artistic photojournalism" -- a strictly literal 2-D representation of a particular scene, when if viewed as a tool, it can encompass much more. It's a bit like saying anything which isn't a Gainsborough portrait isn't painting (though I realize some art critics have said just that).

I don't have the hand-eye coordination to draw or paint, so I use other tools to create an image, including a camera. Everything I create with such a captured image is still a photograph, regardless of how much I manipulate it. A negative printed through color filters and masks to produce a bizarre-looking print is still a photograph, a collage or multiple exposure is still a photograph, a super-macro abstract is still a photograph -- the camera, film, enlarger, paper, and chemicals are the same.

I have no problem with people not liking the result of certain effects or processing techniques, but I get annoyed with the assertion that they are not "photographs."


that's aobut it for me too. i figure it's a photograph if i could have produced in a darkroom (when i had a darkroom). it may have been challenging to do it, but it oculd be done. then there are other pieces that can be made with photoshop now, but could not be made in a darkroom. i'm thinking specifically here of svetlana's wonderful 'desin d'une femme...' (i know i have the title wrong) that would have been a mixed media piece in pre-digital days. so, i guess - toning, burning, photocollage, colour tweaking, etc. etc.

i'm rambling, but i think i've said what i wanted to. maybe.

must go fold clothes...
09/14/2007 02:49:50 PM · #16
There's "darkroom" type Photoshopping and then there's this type of stuff:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

This is an incredibily AWESOME image, and I don't want to take away from it's coolness or the creators incredible talent. It obviously met all the Expert Editing rules, but I'm hardpressed to call this "photography" - this is digital art in my mind.
09/14/2007 03:02:48 PM · #17
Originally posted by macpapas:

There's "darkroom" type Photoshopping and then there's this type of stuff:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

This is an incredibily AWESOME image, and I don't want to take away from it's coolness or the creators incredible talent. It obviously met all the Expert Editing rules, but I'm hardpressed to call this "photography" - this is digital art in my mind.

Why isn't it Photography? Several photographs were combined to produce a piece of art ... it's not painting, it's not drawing, it's not a tapestry or a hook-rug. This can be done with film/darkroom techniques, albeit with more equipment and toxic chemicals than were needed here.

Surely you agree that each frame of a movie is a photograph ... in some scenes of Stanley Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey more than 20 different elements (backgrounds, live actors, models, animations, etc.) were combined in a single frame, using sophisticated matting.masking techniques. Merely combining pieces of photographs or using non-standard processing does not negate the photographic nature of a piece of art.
09/14/2007 03:03:26 PM · #18
Anyone who thinks this is a photography site needs to take a cold hard look around. It is my opinion that this site is largely an editing site, by largely I mean that anything other than basic editing is left open to interpretation. and you know how that goes round theese here parts.

Originally posted by macpapas:

There's "darkroom" type Photoshopping and then there's this type of stuff:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

This is an incredibily AWESOME image, and I don't want to take away from it's coolness or the creators incredible talent. It obviously met all the Expert Editing rules, but I'm hardpressed to call this "photography" - this is digital art in my mind.
09/14/2007 03:40:28 PM · #19
I find it really frustrating that my submissions don't score higher and that part of the reason may well be my inability to use Photoshop.


One example to ponder:

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/736/120/581699.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/736/120/581699.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

In the forums, we read over and over about how people can't possibly do well here because they aren't good enough with Photoshop, or they don't know the more extreme PS techniques. Not trying to toot my own horn (much ;-), but since I'm intimately aware of what post processing went into this image, I just wanted to point out that this image came out of the camera pretty much like what you see. The real 'trick' to the shot was in the 10 things I had to get right before clicking the shutter, starting with spending time figuring out what jpeg settings work best for my particular camera. (Yes, I accidentally left the camera in jpeg mode. I'm not a morning person, and I'd been shooting jpegs the day before. Usually I shoot challenge entries using raw. ;-)

Looking at the current ribbon winners, there are several where the editing doesn't go much beyond what's available in PS Elements. But the ribbon winning photographers started with good pictures, and had the ability to know what post processing the image needed to look its best.
09/14/2007 03:45:16 PM · #20
I wonder why the concept of "Photoshop is the new dark room" is so hard to grasp.

What should we do just print from the camera? Come on!

That is the beauty of the art. Technology has made it not only more accessible but more intuitive.

Look at it this way, Photoshop has replaced chemicals and you can still process you images in a dark room. :-P

Long Live Photograshop! :-D
09/14/2007 03:57:43 PM · #21
Is it photography or is it developing?

Surely we should just stare at transparencies through a light box. And if you shoot negatives, then you damn well better have a good imagination for colour!

Can we please get past this? Pretty, pretty please?
09/14/2007 04:03:18 PM · #22
Originally posted by zarniwoop:

... Can we please get past this? Pretty, pretty please?

I don't think that's possible entirely. This is as subjective to personal opinion as DNMC is.

For me it's past photography when you look at the end result and wonder if it's a well drawn graphic or not, or something totally computer generated.
09/14/2007 04:05:59 PM · #23
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by macpapas:

There's "darkroom" type Photoshopping and then there's this type of stuff:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

This is an incredibily AWESOME image, and I don't want to take away from it's coolness or the creators incredible talent. It obviously met all the Expert Editing rules, but I'm hardpressed to call this "photography" - this is digital art in my mind.

Why isn't it Photography? Several photographs were combined to produce a piece of art ... it's not painting, it's not drawing, it's not a tapestry or a hook-rug. This can be done with film/darkroom techniques, albeit with more equipment and toxic chemicals than were needed here.

Surely you agree that each frame of a movie is a photograph ... in some scenes of Stanley Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey more than 20 different elements (backgrounds, live actors, models, animations, etc.) were combined in a single frame, using sophisticated matting.masking techniques. Merely combining pieces of photographs or using non-standard processing does not negate the photographic nature of a piece of art.


The OP's question was "Where do we draw the line?" While this image was masterfully done, and used photographic images to create it, in my opinion, given the construct of this site and general direction created by the other rule sets, this image crosses the line from photography to digital art.

I'm not arguing that we change anything nor that this image didn't deserve 1st place (cause it clearly is a masterpiece), I'm just stating my opinion and presenting an example of where "I" draw the line.
09/14/2007 04:09:38 PM · #24
Originally posted by annpatt:

I find it really frustrating that my submissions don't score higher and that part of the reason may well be my inability to use Photoshop.


One example to ponder:

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/736/120/581699.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/736/120/581699.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

In the forums, we read over and over about how people can't possibly do well here because they aren't good enough with Photoshop, or they don't know the more extreme PS techniques. Not trying to toot my own horn (much ;-), but since I'm intimately aware of what post processing went into this image, I just wanted to point out that this image came out of the camera pretty much like what you see. The real 'trick' to the shot was in the 10 things I had to get right before clicking the shutter, starting with spending time figuring out what jpeg settings work best for my particular camera. (Yes, I accidentally left the camera in jpeg mode. I'm not a morning person, and I'd been shooting jpegs the day before. Usually I shoot challenge entries using raw. ;-)

Looking at the current ribbon winners, there are several where the editing doesn't go much beyond what's available in PS Elements. But the ribbon winning photographers started with good pictures, and had the ability to know what post processing the image needed to look its best.


I so agree with this, in particular the last sentence. I think it is funny how often it is assumed that ribbon winners have to be edited heavily when they win, how often people will think that photographers with ribbon winners are "photoshop experts" to get images like that. The reality is they usually, like Ann puts it, "started with good pictures and had the ability to know what post processing the image needed to look its best."
09/14/2007 04:15:33 PM · #25
A photo that is photoshopped is still photography without getting the
vinegar-smell stick on you. ;-)
Pages:  
Current Server Time: 12/01/2020 02:12:09 PM

Please log in or register to post to the forums.


Home - Challenges - Community - League - Photos - Cameras - Lenses - Learn - Prints! - Help - Terms of Use - Privacy - Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2020 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Proudly hosted by Sargasso Networks. Current Server Time: 12/01/2020 02:12:09 PM EST.