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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Joey L Complete Tutorial, ready!
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10/13/2007 02:22:42 PM · #51
Originally posted by rheverly:

Originally posted by Shecoya:

Just my two cents.. take it or leave it...

[snip]

He is a professional in the industry who is trying to share what he knows with the public . . .


Originally posted by MAK:

The price is fair, the fact that he is willing to share his technique is unique and kudos to you for that Joey.


This discussion really, really stretches the definition of the word "share" beyond anything I've ever understood it to mean. I could agree with "He is a professional in the industry trying to sell what he knows . . . " and "the fact that he is willing to sell . . . ". But share? I don't buy it. Sharing is what's done when someone here on the forums asks how to do something and gets some good advice, or when someone posts a tutorial or a "how I did this" thread. Does Nikon share its cameras? I don't think so, we buy them. For money. Nothing sharing like to it.

This isn't a criticism of Joey for doing what he's done. He has something, people want it, he's charging money. That's capitalism. And it seems pretty clear that Joey knows he's not "sharing" as he apparently first posted this thread in the "buy/sell" forum (from the original post that started the thread: "site council please move this thread if it violates and rules on the Buy/Sell forum. I'm not sure where to post this / if I am allowed"). The site council apparently moved it here (without marking it "moved"). Until I read the first post more closely, I wondered why Joey hadn't posted this in buy/sell given that there isn't a single tip, trick or relevant Q&A in the whole thread. There is a product for sale. Looks to me like Joey put it where it belonged to begin with.


Tomato's tomatoes You say sell I say share..My opinion is that: he is sharing his knowledge *which btw many pro's won't do..so they keep the market edge* and making money from doing so.. call it what you like.. dude knows his stuff and is presenting it for all to benefit from :) buy it or don't its still out there for the taking/learning and he has shared his knowledge time and effort and put it in a pretty little package.
10/13/2007 02:25:45 PM · #52
Originally posted by MAK:

The price is fair, the fact that he is willing to share his technique is unique and kudos to you for that Joey.

Think about the learning curve he went through, the time, know-how, the fact that you can email the creator to bug him is unique too.

Simple solution - If you can afford it, BUY IT
If you can't, DON"T

But don't knock the guy for making his living from what he loves and also try to remember, this is a young man with a god given talent and he is willing to share it with us....

Good luck Joey.


Ditto!
10/13/2007 02:26:31 PM · #53
Originally posted by noisemaker:

I bet it is an awesome DVD, but personally I see it is as Joey's own style. Sure you can put your own twists on it but it is still not your style. I'm not saying its a bad idea, for a lot of people this is an amazing tool, but for me, I want to be able to generate my own style and feel to my images. So when someone looks at a photo of mine they aren't like hey that kind of looks like a Joey Lawrence photo.
Again this is not a knock on Joey at all as I wish I had set in stone my own editing techniques and were able to sell them for $300.
Its just that its such a unique editing technique that its easily recognizable as Joey's. That for alot of shooting people do this editing isnt effective. This is more for the edgy crowd(and generally younger crowd). You wouldnt put textures and stuff on a classic portrait or wedding formals.

but thats all for now!
Hope you make some good sales JL!
-Dustin


I think perhaps another way to look at this is to focus on the photoshop steps themselves... I struggle with photoshop daily.. it doesnt make a lot of sense to me.. and while all the steps together may turn out to have a (for the sake of this audience) a Joey style.. the individual steps you are learning when separated, may be helpful on many other levels combined with the look you are trying to achieve.


Message edited by author 2007-10-13 14:26:57.
10/13/2007 02:30:41 PM · #54
Gonna be a looong thread, I can feel it.

' . substr('//forums.revora.net/style_emoticons/default/popcorn.gif', strrpos('//forums.revora.net/style_emoticons/default/popcorn.gif', '/') + 1) . '
10/13/2007 02:36:18 PM · #55
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by rheverly:


This discussion really, really stretches the definition of the word "share" beyond anything I've ever understood it to mean. I could agree with "He is a professional in the industry trying to sell what he knows . . . " and "the fact that he is willing to sell . . . ". But share? I don't buy it. Sharing is what's done when someone here on the forums asks how to do something and gets some good advice, or when someone posts a tutorial or a "how I did this" thread. Does Nikon share its cameras? I don't think so, we buy them. For money. Nothing sharing like to it.


I disagree. LOTS of professionals have processing "secrets" that they refuse to share with others, even for pay. When someone at this skill level markets his skills to others, that IS sharing. And it's of great value to a lot of people that want to develop their own edgy, commercial style for the marketplace.

R.


I have to disagree with you Robert (but won't belabor the issue beyond this post); this still is not sharing. It's selling, plain and simple. If others have "secrets" and don't sell them, then they have neither shared nor sold. But neither they nor Joey have "shared" in any real (ie, not warped by the rhetoric of PR and the marketplace) sense. I certainly hope my two-year-old daughter doesn't adopt this use of the word "share" as she grows up.

Originally posted by Shecoya:

You say sell I say share


Well, okay, if you want share to mean sell, then for you it does (words don't have any inherent meaning, they have only the meanings we give them from their context and our experience with them). But if that's true, sharing doesn't mean anything, and we might as well not use it at all. It differentiates nothing if it doesn't differentiate between what is sold and what is openly shared. In your vocabulary, it's an essentially meaningless word. It's not to me, so I'll keep using it, and I'll keep differentiating between knowledge that is openly shared and knowledge that is packaged and sold as a commodity.

L2, thank you for answering my question (still might be nice to have a note indicating it was moved).

Final note: this is Joey's thread; he started it to announce his new product. I didn't mean to hijack it, so if you need to have the last word on sharing, please do, I won't continue to harp on about it here in his thread.

Edited to fix a typo

Message edited by author 2007-10-13 14:37:17.
10/13/2007 02:39:12 PM · #56
please don't take offense at my jab at the price -
it is reasonable to expect a seller to sell 1 at 300$ rather than 10 at 30$ - it is easier & direct costs is less
I firmly believe this is what adobe does as well

if your really WANT it or NEED it you will pay :)

but by casual observation; (& IMO)
this is out of most peoples impulse purchase range;
everyone has different levels -
and different levels for different classes of items
my tool/camera eqp. level is 10x my software level ;)
& my spouse impulse levels are 1/10 of mine ...

but i'm going off topic ..
10/13/2007 03:34:38 PM · #57
I think its pretty cool that Joey is sharing his methods. Would love to get my hands on one of these DVDs because I am sure it would be of great value to my progression, even more so than the first one he released. Unfortunately, its way outside of my price range too.. Any student discounts available? :P
10/13/2007 03:38:26 PM · #58
Originally posted by Nocturnal_Delusion:

$250 for a joey dvd? SOLD! well, as soon as I get home from work.

I think the price is very fair, this is my favorite learning style and a very respected source for the information. Quick question, does this new dvd encompass what your first one had in it? or is it seperate material? If the material is different is there anybody out there that has a copy of the first dvd they're willing to part with?

The new package does go over a lot of the stuff from the old one again, but this is quite a small fraction of the contents. Also, I no longer sell the old one. For people who did buy the old one, I have the 20$ discount for this reason. (and cause people supporting me is super cool)

But basically, you will find a lot of those simple old techniques a lot more expanded, and used on different images. Seeing something used on a wide range of images is a much better way to learn because you can better apply and manipulate the effect for your own stuff.
10/13/2007 03:40:06 PM · #59
Originally posted by tapeworm_jimmy:

I think its pretty cool that Joey is sharing his methods. Would love to get my hands on one of these DVDs because I am sure it would be of great value to my progression, even more so than the first one he released. Unfortunately, its way outside of my price range too.. Any student discounts available? :P

If you are a photographer, you will forever be a student ;-)

No specific discount for students, just the 50$ off opening sale + 20$ discount if you bought the last disk

Message edited by author 2007-10-13 15:40:23.
10/13/2007 03:52:52 PM · #60
Cool, thx for the reply Joey, I'll give you any feedback I have when you come here for the workshop in July :)

If anybody has a used copy of the first dvd they don't need anymore shoot me a PM, I'll probably take it off your hands.
10/13/2007 04:08:08 PM · #61
Originally posted by Nocturnal_Delusion:

Cool, thx for the reply Joey, I'll give you any feedback I have when you come here for the workshop in July :)

If anybody has a used copy of the first dvd they don't need anymore shoot me a PM, I'll probably take it off your hands.

Nobody will want to give up the first DVD because it has something this second one won't... the Slippy Intro. ;-D
10/13/2007 06:16:29 PM · #62
Originally posted by Strikeslip:


Nobody will want to give up the first DVD because it has something this second one won't... the Slippy Intro. ;-D

too many people actually spat chewing tobacco on their lenses ;-)
10/13/2007 06:27:02 PM · #63
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by rheverly:


This discussion really, really stretches the definition of the word "share" beyond anything I've ever understood it to mean. I could agree with "He is a professional in the industry trying to sell what he knows . . . " and "the fact that he is willing to sell . . . ". But share? I don't buy it. Sharing is what's done when someone here on the forums asks how to do something and gets some good advice, or when someone posts a tutorial or a "how I did this" thread. Does Nikon share its cameras? I don't think so, we buy them. For money. Nothing sharing like to it.


I disagree. LOTS of professionals have processing "secrets" that they refuse to share with others, even for pay. When someone at this skill level markets his skills to others, that IS sharing. And it's of great value to a lot of people that want to develop their own edgy, commercial style for the marketplace.

R.


Actually it is sharing by selling.

As far as secrets are concerned, there are lots of professionals who would share their secrets. So this thing kinda evens out. So it is really selling.
Personally I wouldn't buy it even for 30 dollars. Why? Simple because I am not impressed with his style. (Probably I am the only one on this site). I do not find anything special with it.
10/13/2007 06:52:22 PM · #64
OMG, I would LOVE to buy it. I'd love to buy the textures, the actions, and pick up the techniques to get that rough edgy look to some of my photos. I also think it is worth the value of all the time spent to come up with the design and format, producing it, not to mention the time spent learning the techniques yourself.

But having said that. . .sigh. . .I can't afford it right now. Maybe someday.

But good luck Joey! And I AM quite jealous of you guys who can afford it!! ! ! !

10/13/2007 07:20:51 PM · #65
$300 is not really alot of money when you look at the time and effort put into this.

I would have to agree with what someone said earlier that if you lowered the price, You would sell more copies and in the long run would make more money.

I think some people are not considering what you have invested. Time, Effort, Money Etc..

However, You also have to think about what else 300 dollars can purchase, a 50mm 1.4 lens or a new flash or a strobe light or a few memory cards or a new tripod and a backpack or a decent flash meter, maybe an update for adobe from CS2-CS3 etc etc....

Compare that to a DVD ? It does seem a bit expensive. Good Luck with it though, From what I seen on the web page it looks like a good package.

10/13/2007 08:17:49 PM · #66
I need to get my checkbook in order first. I may or may not have enough in my checking account to cover it.

My experience in learning from books vs. classes vs. seminars vs. a pre-recorded electronic method, is this:

A book is OK, but you can't really see whet the results SHOULD look like when working in parallel with the author and unless the author includes sample files you can't duplicate their work before applying it to your own.

Classes are great, but you have to be in a specific place at a specific time for some number of times. Also, classes are group activities and while some effort is made to group students of similar levels together, thy almost always wind up moving at the pace of the slowest student and everybody else gets shortchanged.

Seminars have all the problems of classes, but they're usually just a couple of days long and everything gets crammed into those hours. It's like drinking from a fire hose.

The DVD lets you learn when and where you want. Can't sleep one night? Joey will be right there on his DVD waiting to teach you at 2:30 am while you sit there in your jamies drinking warm milk. Fall asleep? Joey will go back and cover what you missed while the keyboard was making the side of your face look like a waffle.

10/13/2007 08:20:47 PM · #67
If I hadn't just spent thousands of dollars in moving I'd be all over this. Maybe at the end of January. Just seeing the sample photo's he works on makes me drool just thinking about purchasing my copy.

I think it's worth the $300.
10/13/2007 08:27:50 PM · #68
Okay... so just to drop a little more fuel into this neverending difference of opinion. I'd like to put forward that having just watched a few of the segments on the new disc, Joey has tried harder this time to explain how and why you would use the things he does, both in lighting and in photoshop. These tips are invaluable, they will not make you into the so called 'Joey-clone,' but they will serve to develop your technique.
10/13/2007 08:45:38 PM · #69
Two main reasons I found to buy this Joey L Complete Tutorial
... 1. Getting behind the scenes and learn the techniques of a great photographer
... 2. Supporting this genius Kid
10/13/2007 09:26:10 PM · #70
So you're in for the $299?

Too steep for me right now. Besides...would it make your work "like" Joeys?

Originally posted by Shecoya:

Just my two cents.. take it or leave it...

Joey is a pro.. he makes his living from film and photography and if someone were to take the time to read his credits you'd see this is his life.
Having said that, his dvd isn't the work of some random kid on dpc charging some random high price for the hell of it.

A friend re-framed my way of thinking a while ago... think about this: What is my time worth? (how much do you make an hour in your job) Then consider how many hours were put into bringing this dvd/download to life? Think about industry standards and prices out there from other pros.. I think you'll find its completely fair.. with the added bonus of knowing the creator and having the opportunity to ask further questions about the techniques shown.. that doesn't often happen when learning from a text book. Besides the bonus of supporting the success of one of our own.
He is a professional in the industry who is trying to share what he knows with the public and his work is equal to that of others in the industry. If you like what he produces and the style he has then save your pennies and buy it.. if you don't.. then don't.

Just my opinion.. :)

10/13/2007 09:59:06 PM · #71
The 10 at $30 is a very good comment. There is NO WAY I can fork over $300 in the near future for a PS tutorial. However, I did look at the samples and I would surely pay $30 TONIGHT.

Even though I don't want my work to look exactly like Joey's, I think the DVD shows some very good "how to".

I think he would sell 50 to 100 today at $30 - $50 - that's $3000 to $5000 in one day. But...I think it would take a longer period of time (a week or two at least.. IMO) to sell 10- - 20 DVDs at $300.

Also...for the price of $30 you will get MANY buyers spreading the word about the great dvd to more people faster !!! This will make for more sales IMO.

I wonder if Joey built in the higher price to make "Pirates" think before they give Joey's work to others. IMO if I paid $300 for a DVD...NO ONE is going to see it but me !!!

KS

Originally posted by ralph:

please don't take offense at my jab at the price -
it is reasonable to expect a seller to sell 1 at 300$ rather than 10 at 30$ - it is easier & direct costs is less
I firmly believe this is what adobe does as well

if your really WANT it or NEED it you will pay :)

but by casual observation; (& IMO)
this is out of most peoples impulse purchase range;
everyone has different levels -
and different levels for different classes of items
my tool/camera eqp. level is 10x my software level ;)
& my spouse impulse levels are 1/10 of mine ...

but i'm going off topic ..

10/13/2007 10:05:22 PM · #72
Originally posted by kenskid:


I think he would sell 50 to 100 today at $30 - $50 - that's $3000 to $5000 in one day. But...I think it would take a longer period of time (a week or two at least.. IMO) to sell 10- - 20 DVDs at $300.


When it costs you 25 bucks for a year's worth of advertising on a site that gets as much traffic as DPC, I'd price the thing expensive as hell too and just sit and wait for the sales. They will certainly come in.
10/13/2007 10:36:00 PM · #73
Originally posted by De Sousa:

Two main reasons I found to buy this Joey L Complete Tutorial
... 1. Getting behind the scenes and learn the techniques of a great photographer
... 2. Supporting this genius Kid


Hear! Hear! Cheers and beers for creativity and talent!!

I am a relative newcomer to photography and the DP site, and I find Joey's work inspiring. I also know how much energy it takes to produce just 5 minutes of footage. I would like to say "Thanks" to Joey for using some of that creativity and talent to produce a DVD, that allows others to share his knowledge, if they choose.

Do I think it would make my work look like Joey's......no chance! I could only wish for a little of that...

Well nothing like a little contraversy to promote a new product. It should ultimately be good for sales....Good luck Joey, and keep the good work happening.
10/13/2007 10:44:29 PM · #74
Originally posted by kenskid:

I wonder if Joey built in the higher price to make "Pirates" think before they give Joey's work to others. IMO if I paid $300 for a DVD...NO ONE is going to see it but me !!!



I see that as the opposite. If I spent 300 bones on something I would share it with everyone I knew and didn't know. Especially if for some strange reason I wasn't completely satisified. Not saying I wouldn't be. It reminds me of the sotry of the chocolate chip cookie at Nordstroms.

I was dissapointed to see the price at 300. 30 or 40, maybe even 50 and I would be watching it now. But 300 is a new piece of glass....
10/13/2007 11:05:07 PM · #75
Glass...food, rent, electric bill...

[/quote]

But 300 is a new piece of glass.... [/quote]
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