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10/15/2007 10:53:24 PM · #76
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Do you or Louis give money to the church?


More than I care to think about. My grandparents lost a sizable chunk of retirement money to Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker. :-/


There's your problem, those people weren't Christains. I remember other Christains back when I was a little kid that were just appaled by them, even before the whole scandal broke.

Pooling good, honest Christians with the likes of them isn't at all a fair . They were hucksters and con-artists, not preachers.


10/15/2007 11:00:23 PM · #77
Originally posted by wavelength:

I never said you were stupid Lois, but your general un-charity those that you deem unworthy of your respect comes to mind.

It's Louis dammit (I know you knew that but I hated that when I was kid).

I never said Christians were a bunch of superstitious idiots. I never said I have no respect for god believers.

Originally posted by wavelength:

I have some pretty good reasons and observances on why I think most Athiests are more hate-filled than they accuse believers of being, and generally their un-belief is based more off their own arrogant assertion of their own self-righteousness and will than anything approaching a reasoned argument.

I don't see how this could be an accusation levelled against me, since you don't know me, but assuming it is, all I can do is point you to other threads in this forum on the subject where rational arguments and reasoned discourse were the only way to go for me personally, even against those who were "with me". With a generous peppering of irony and sarcasm of course.

Speaking generally, it amuses me when theists who defend their beliefs with all the unsubstantiated utterances and vitriol they can muster are applauded for their piety and faith, and when atheists point out the merest hint of discord in the arguments of the faithful, they're laughed out of the room. Same concept as what you said, I guess, but in reverse.
10/15/2007 11:02:56 PM · #78
Originally posted by dudephil:

Do you or Louis give money to the church?

Why would I do that, I wonder?
10/15/2007 11:06:19 PM · #79
Originally posted by wavelength:

There's your problem, those people weren't Christains. I remember other Christains back when I was a little kid that were just appaled by them, even before the whole scandal broke.


Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be an isolated case. Apparently Orthodox and Protestant churchgoers aren't really Christians either, and the pool of true Christians within the smaller Roman Catholic subset is shrinking. :-/
10/15/2007 11:06:31 PM · #80
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Do you or Louis give money to the church?

Why would I do that, I wonder?


Maybe so you could have the right to complain about how the church spends it?
10/15/2007 11:08:09 PM · #81
Originally posted by dudephil:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Do you or Louis give money to the church?

Why would I do that, I wonder?


Maybe so you could have the right to complain about how the church spends it?


Considering the tax breaks the church gets, I do believe we all have a vested interest in the matter.
Ray
10/15/2007 11:11:23 PM · #82
Originally posted by Louis:


It's Louis dammit (I know you knew that but I hated that when I was kid).


Yeah, already fixed it :) Damn fat fingers.
10/15/2007 11:12:41 PM · #83
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Do you or Louis give money to the church?

Why would I do that, I wonder?


Maybe so you could have the right to complain about how the church spends it?


Considering the tax breaks the church gets, I do believe we all have a vested interest in the matter.
Ray


Millionaires get tax breaks too. Do you have a vested interest in how they spend or donate their moneys?
10/15/2007 11:14:04 PM · #84
Originally posted by dudephil:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Do you or Louis give money to the church?

Why would I do that, I wonder?


Maybe so you could have the right to complain about how the church spends it?


Considering the tax breaks the church gets, I do believe we all have a vested interest in the matter.
Ray


Millionaires get tax breaks too. Do you have a vested interest in how they spend or donate their moneys?


Not to mention everyone else who reports.

Message edited by author 2007-10-15 23:14:35.
10/15/2007 11:15:14 PM · #85
Originally posted by dudephil:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Do you or Louis give money to the church?

Why would I do that, I wonder?

Maybe so you could have the right to complain about how the church spends it?

Everyone has the right to point out the hypocricy of an organization that claims it acts on behalf of the whole of humankind.
10/15/2007 11:18:53 PM · #86
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by wavelength:

There's your problem, those people weren't Christains. I remember other Christains back when I was a little kid that were just appaled by them, even before the whole scandal broke.


Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be an isolated case. Apparently Orthodox and Protestant churchgoers aren't really Christians either, and the pool of true Christians within the smaller Roman Catholic subset is shrinking. :-/


hah, touche.

I don't think I've ever gone that far. But I'd go a different tack. I think most denominations are about half full of non-believers. Some of these are just the hangers-on, the worst of these are the Baker and worse ilk. Benny Hinn comes to mind currently.

I'm not saying people don't have a case for their dislike of Christians in general. I'm just saying that isolated cases, no matter the number, don't prove the whole movement (when it's genuine especially) as a lost cause. Hey, even Jesus said that the number of fakes would increase as time goes on. I'm all too aware of the baddies and the posers. I was recently chased out of my old church by some, so I have a bit of experience there.
10/15/2007 11:21:29 PM · #87
Originally posted by dudephil:



Millionaires get tax breaks too. Do you have a vested interest in how they spend or donate their moneys?


Really now... it would be interesting to find out how many billionaires don't pay property tax and are not taxed at source.

Ray
10/15/2007 11:22:30 PM · #88
Originally posted by wavelength:

I think most denominations are about half full of non-believers. Some of these are just the hangers-on, the worst of these are the Baker and worse ilk.


Those darn non-believers are trouble!
10/15/2007 11:27:12 PM · #89
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Do you or Louis give money to the church?

Why would I do that, I wonder?

Maybe so you could have the right to complain about how the church spends it?

Everyone has the right to point out the hypocricy of an organization that claims it acts on behalf of the whole of humankind.


Where did you read that the church says it acts on behalf of the whole of humankind? Our local churches are concerned with humanity but I don't think I've ever heard any of them say, "We act on the behlaf of the whole of humankind"; however, I have seen some pretty amazing things come from the local churches here. Among them are homes built, families fed, bills paid when bad luck comes, cars repaired so a dad can go to work, clothes, furniture, and literally hundreds of other things.

Are there dirty ones? Certainly, but to lump them all together (which is being done here, admittedly or not) isn't just.

Ray, how many other organizations do the things I mentioned above and don't take tax breaks? Personally, I think they've earned it.
10/15/2007 11:29:55 PM · #90
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by wavelength:

I think most denominations are about half full of non-believers. Some of these are just the hangers-on, the worst of these are the Baker and worse ilk.


Those darn non-believers are trouble!


every believer has a crisis of faith at some point in their life...sometimes more than once.
10/15/2007 11:30:20 PM · #91
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by wavelength:

I think most denominations are about half full of non-believers. Some of these are just the hangers-on, the worst of these are the Baker and worse ilk.


Those darn non-believers are trouble!


As are the believers.
10/15/2007 11:37:19 PM · #92
Originally posted by dudephil:


Where did you read that the church says it acts on behalf of the whole of humankind?


Can't say that I have ever read anything that directly states that, but I do have hope when I look at this:

"If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth."
~ (1 John 3:17-18)

Could it be that my interpretation of this is skewed?

Ray
10/15/2007 11:47:17 PM · #93
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by dudephil:


Where did you read that the church says it acts on behalf of the whole of humankind?


Can't say that I have ever read anything that directly states that, but I do have hope when I look at this:

"If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth."
~ (1 John 3:17-18)

Could it be that my interpretation of this is skewed?

Ray


If your interpretation is that this scripture says that the church acts on behalf of the whole of humankind then I would say it is skewed.

If your interpretation of the scripture is that the people of the church are to help those in need then I wouldn't say it's skewed.

Do I think that church needs to be so big or cost so much money? If it draws more people who will give time, money or other things to help those in need then I say yes. If not then obviously my answer would be no. The thing is that people have already made their minds up before seeing what good this church has done or will do.

10/15/2007 11:54:36 PM · #94
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by wavelength:

I think most denominations are about half full of non-believers. Some of these are just the hangers-on, the worst of these are the Baker and worse ilk.


Those darn non-believers are trouble!


Anyone who has been a christian for very long can attest to the same exact thing. It being touted as a lack of faith or un-belief is simply wrong.

Belief in Christianity is NOT a giant self help movement like it's been turned into by so many. Belief in God and knowledge of the necessity of your salvation does not mean you just got a magic pill to heath, wealth, and happiness with zero life troubles. That's not what it was about from the beginning. It was about the knowledge that you're a sinner, I'm a sinner, I have a debt owed by the nature of God. Being a just and good, perfect deity, he cannot allow imperfection to reign with him in eternity. What kind of judge would leave a transgressor of the law unpunished and a debt unpaid? Christianity, at it's base, is about the understanding that Jesus Christ, the incarnate form of God, died to pay the debt that you owe him, and the fact that if you accept his sacrifice, you owe your life to another.

Besides, I don't remember many of the apostles being treated very well for their faith. Banished, tortured, imprisioned, sawn in half, hung on crosses, hung upside-down on crosses, burned at the stake. One might wonder if they felt a little un-duly burdened or abandoned by God at that point also.

edit- added NOT

Message edited by author 2007-10-15 23:56:12.
10/16/2007 12:02:36 AM · #95
Originally posted by dudephil:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Do you or Louis give money to the church?

Why would I do that, I wonder?

Maybe so you could have the right to complain about how the church spends it?

Everyone has the right to point out the hypocricy of an organization that claims it acts on behalf of the whole of humankind.


Where did you read that the church says it acts on behalf of the whole of humankind?

I am a former Catholic who spent thirteen years in the Catholic school system and considered the seminary at a very early age, and I assure you that the Catholic church considers that it acts on behalf of the whole of humankind. "Catholic" is Greek for "universal".

I am intrigued by your apparent assertion that Christianity generally is not concerned with the whole of humanity, but rather only with those who belong to the club. How right you are.
10/16/2007 12:12:24 AM · #96
Originally posted by Louis:

I am intrigued by your apparent assertion that Christianity generally is not concerned with the whole of humanity, but rather only with those who belong to the club. How right you are.


Sad, but true :(

Not how it supposed to be..
10/16/2007 12:12:54 AM · #97
Originally posted by wavelength:

Belief in God and knowledge of the necessity of your salvation does not mean you just got a magic pill to heath, wealth, and happiness with zero life troubles. That's not what it was about from the beginning. It was about the knowledge that you're a sinner, I'm a sinner, I have a debt owed by the nature of God...


And you know this how exactly? Because you were told and/or read it somewhere? Talk about making assumptions! I have a real hard time listening to a preacher tell toddlers that they're all sinners. That's basically asserting that all humans are defective at time of manufacture. I demand a refund. ;-P
10/16/2007 12:22:54 AM · #98
Originally posted by Louis:

I am intrigued by your apparent assertion that Christianity generally is not concerned with the whole of humanity, but rather only with those who belong to the club. How right you are.
[/quote]

This is pretty much the case with everyone, Christians included. Whether it be valuing family above all others or Christians valuing other Christians above all others we as a species choose to be concerned about only the people we associate with. Hence why we have people who suffer in distant lands.
10/16/2007 12:24:16 AM · #99
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10/16/2007 12:34:41 AM · #100
Originally posted by Louis:



I am intrigued by your apparent assertion that Christianity generally is not concerned with the whole of humanity, but rather only with those who belong to the club. How right you are.


I'm sorry Louis. I thought we weren't making assumptions here. Maybe your interpretation of Catholicism says that but my interpretation of Christianity doesn't say that you have to belong to the club for me to have pity. In fact, it teaches me the opposite - but at the same time doesn't tell me that the church acts on the behalf of all humankind. That is silly. Acting on one's behalf and helping someone out are two totally different things.

Christianity is certainly concerned with humanity but we must start with ourselves. I am certainly not a devout, religious person but I am a Christian. I need work. However, if I can make an attempt to do a little something for someone everyday then I think I'm on the right path. If you don't believe then that is up to you. I just don't see the need in routinely dragging up a topic that only drags the same participants into a 4 day argument.
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