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12/17/2007 11:36:44 AM · #51
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:

Lets see.. There was 7 garage doors with windows, 2 sets of stairs, 1 hand rail to the immediate right of the hood. How can you sit there and say that the wall in my image has any significance over my image and NONE of his garage doors don't?

Check your math. I only see a few minor distractions-

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There was NOTHING prominent in the background (and this isn't helping your cause).


I have checked my math Shannon and the original that was posed by crabappl3 is not the same as you have posted here. The one he posted has much more in it, so Thanks my math has been checked.

Prominent -
1: standing out or projecting beyond a surface or line.
2 a: readily noticeable

How can you sit there and say that the ROAD, THE DOORS, THE STAIRS does not stand out in the original. Mine was 1 wall.
I think that instead of trying to prove the wrong right you should try and make the rules more clear by your definition of Prominent editing.
12/17/2007 11:38:52 AM · #52
Originally posted by crabappl3:



Can you blame me, I'm pissed off because I was DQ'd and in my mind wrongfully. Besides you don't have to watch this thread. You are more than welcome to do what you like.

Message edited by author 2007-12-17 11:39:06.
12/17/2007 11:38:54 AM · #53
Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:


I have checked my math Shannon and the original that was posed by crabappl3 is not the same as you have posted here. The one he posted has much more in it, so Thanks my math has been checked.


They base their decision on the final crop. So Shannon just cropped the original to my final aspect ratio... double check your math ;-)
12/17/2007 11:38:57 AM · #54
Originally posted by scalvert:


Check your math. I only see a few minor distractions-

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There was NOTHING prominent in the background (and this isn't helping your cause).


I would describe those two images quite differently. I think this editing is against the letter of rule, and most definitely against its spirit. This is the first time ever that I completely disagree with a DQ/non-DQ decision. Just my opinion.

Message edited by author 2007-12-17 11:41:08.
12/17/2007 11:39:25 AM · #55
Originally posted by scalvert:


Check your math. I only see a few minor distractions-

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There was NOTHING prominent in the background (and this isn't helping your cause).


Shannon, forgive me for being a PITA but it's easy to interpret this statement/these examples as saying that in advanced editing it is OK to completely obliterate context from your images, so that the subjects float on a "sea of nothing" as long as the context was reasonably neutral to begin with. And the specific example shows a context that is a freaking parking lot... Clearly and unequivocally this was a shot of two cars in a parking lot in an industrial area, but it ended up as looking like a shot of two cars in a pure white studio setting.

Dirt's shot, the other shot, did retain the context. He didn't try to fool anybody on that.

This seems wrong-way-forward, to me. But what do I know?

R.
12/17/2007 11:41:36 AM · #56
Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:

I have checked my math Shannon and the original that was posed by crabappl3 is not the same as you have posted here. The one he posted has much more in it, so Thanks my math has been checked.

Prominent -
1: standing out or projecting beyond a surface or line.
2 a: readily noticeable

How can you sit there and say that the ROAD, THE DOORS, THE STAIRS does not stand out in the original. Mine was 1 wall.


On this, you are wrong :-( ALL these decisions of before-and-after are based on the appearance of the original AFTER cropping but BEFORE spot-editing. Cropping out of elements is always legal.

R.

ETA: had you cropped your image like this, you could have floated it on a sea of white with impunity, if I understand SC's reasoning correctly:

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30861/120/623249.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30861/120/623249.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Message edited by author 2007-12-17 11:48:21.
12/17/2007 11:49:26 AM · #57
In my opinion, which is worth squat in circumstances such as this, they BOTH deserve DQ'ing.

DIrt-Diver - PM'd you.

You have to remember some people are gagging to be on the Site council, so they will agree with whatever SC say.. Whether right or wrong.. (although I still think they got it right when DQ'ing your image, but got it wrong letting the other one through..)
12/17/2007 11:52:18 AM · #58
LOL, just realised that DD is Lowcivicman.. gotta watch those name changes..
12/17/2007 11:54:21 AM · #59
Originally posted by Simms:

(although I still think they got it right when DQ'ing your image, but got it wrong letting the other one through..)


That would be my position also.

R.
12/17/2007 11:55:21 AM · #60
Originally posted by Simms:

In my opinion, which is worth squat in circumstances such as this, they BOTH deserve DQ'ing.

You have to remember some people are gagging to be on the Site council, so they will agree with whatever SC say.. Whether right or wrong.. (although I still think they got it right when DQ'ing your image, but got it wrong letting the other one through..)


100% agree with you on this. But again my opinion means squat.
12/17/2007 11:55:47 AM · #61
Crab's background as cropped was basically white and indistinct to begin with- just a faint dock on the left and a few shapes that were considered minor distractions. Diver's context was considerably more detailed, not basically white and indistinct, and the parts removed were not considered minor distractions. Visually, Crab removed some small black rectangles and faint lines, while Diver removed half a showroom.
12/17/2007 11:58:11 AM · #62
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

had you cropped your image like this, you could have floated it on a sea of white with impunity, if I understand SC's reasoning correctly:

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30861/120/623249.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30861/120/623249.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

With a lighter floor, you'd be correct. As-is, that might be a split decision.

Message edited by author 2007-12-17 11:58:48.
12/17/2007 11:58:18 AM · #63
Originally posted by crabappl3:

They base their decision on the final crop. So Shannon just cropped the original to my final aspect ratio... double check your math ;-)


Ok that's enough about math; it has nothing to do with the fact that this is a bunch of bullshit.

I have DQ'd for the same reason that you were validated and I'm glad that some others agree with the fact that SC was wrong in this case. I remember a thread somewhere at sometime about ways to make this site better, Well this is a good thread to read for that. I can now see why there was been no DPL 2.

Take note to all SC's and Admin's. The rules need to be fixed yet again to make it crystal clear as to what is and isn't prominent when editing. That fine, VERY FINE line between what you can and can't edit out of an image needs to be thicker and in bold.

My conclusion, I don't think either images should have been DQ'd and I don't agree with the SC's decision on this. I also think that it should be brought up when Langdon wants to revise the site. It's definitely a matter that should be looked at and fixed for EVERYONE on the site to read and understand.
12/17/2007 12:03:50 PM · #64
I'm done with this debate. I've said what needed to be said and although I can't change my DQ I might be able to keep others from falling off the edge.
12/17/2007 12:19:15 PM · #65
Originally posted by scalvert:

Crab's background as cropped was basically white and indistinct to begin with- just a faint dock on the left and a few shapes that were considered minor distractions. Diver's context was considerably more detailed, not basically white and indistinct, and the parts removed were not considered minor distractions. Visually, Crab removed some small black rectangles and faint lines, while Diver removed half a showroom.


What about the removal of the windshield fluid dispensers on the hood and the removal of the brown area around the speedometer giving the view unobtrusive views? I have more of a problem with these elements.

I'm with Robert on this one. I think both should of been dq'ed but my opinion don't count.
12/17/2007 12:21:27 PM · #66
Originally posted by swhiddon:

What about the removal of the windshield fluid dispensers on the hood and the removal of the brown area around the speedometer giving the view unobtrusive views? I have more of a problem with these elements.

Treebranch? Powerline? Similar in nature to the very small items in the scheme of the photo overall.
12/17/2007 12:26:23 PM · #67
this is why I do not enter challenges anymore..........
12/17/2007 12:31:57 PM · #68
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by swhiddon:

What about the removal of the windshield fluid dispensers on the hood and the removal of the brown area around the speedometer giving the view unobtrusive views? I have more of a problem with these elements.

Treebranch? Powerline? Similar in nature to the very small items in the scheme of the photo overall.

Yep, they're just minor details.
12/17/2007 12:36:45 PM · #69
Originally posted by electrolost:

this is why I do not enter challenges anymore..........

Good thing basketball players that foul out of a game, or coaches ejected for arguing a call, don't give up so easily. :-P Usually see them right back in the mix when the next game comes around.
12/17/2007 12:37:10 PM · #70
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by swhiddon:

What about the removal of the windshield fluid dispensers on the hood and the removal of the brown area around the speedometer giving the view unobtrusive views? I have more of a problem with these elements.

Treebranch? Powerline? Similar in nature to the very small items in the scheme of the photo overall.

Yep, they're just minor details.


As much as people do get annoyed with SC in matters like this, it must be pretty hard to decide where the line is drawn.. people will get upset, of that there is no doubt.

Its a case of "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't".. If in doubt, you can always submit the photo before voting starts to have it OK'd or KO'd. (you see what I did there..)

Message edited by author 2007-12-17 12:38:07.
12/17/2007 12:42:16 PM · #71
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:

Lets see.. There was 7 garage doors with windows, 2 sets of stairs, 1 hand rail to the immediate right of the hood. How can you sit there and say that the wall in my image has any significance over my image and NONE of his garage doors don't?

Check your math. I only see a few minor distractions-

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/17203/120/623245.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/17203/120/623245.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' --> ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/782/120/620908.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/782/120/620908.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

There was NOTHING prominent in the background (and this isn't helping your cause).

Please! I don't even have to look past the thumbs.

It's a tough call, I'll grant you, but the comparison of these two entries sure doesn't help validate the DQ to me. If you want to try and fly the DQ on its own before and after, fine, I can probably swallow that, but I don't think that crab's "cleaning up" of extraneous distractions is any better than dirt's.

And for the record, again, I liked 'em both.

Just another reason why even if they all lost their minds and asked me to be on SC, I'd *RUN* in the other direction!!! LOL!!!

Message edited by author 2007-12-17 12:48:41.
12/17/2007 12:53:08 PM · #72
Originally posted by Simms:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by swhiddon:

What about the removal of the windshield fluid dispensers on the hood and the removal of the brown area around the speedometer giving the view unobtrusive views? I have more of a problem with these elements.

Treebranch? Powerline? Similar in nature to the very small items in the scheme of the photo overall.

Yep, they're just minor details.


As much as people do get annoyed with SC in matters like this, it must be pretty hard to decide where the line is drawn.. people will get upset, of that there is no doubt.

Its a case of "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't".. If in doubt, you can always submit the photo before voting starts to have it OK'd or KO'd. (you see what I did there..)

I agree with you here. I know the SC have a hard time deciding where to draw the line. I respect the SC and all USERS but my point is if the SC has a pretty hard time deciding where to draw the line - what about the User? They have a harder time.

It becomes a contest between users that are willing to approach that thin line and risk a DQ and the users that don't. As impossible as it may seem I think could find some terminology that would put the user at ease when he/she is editing and not be worried about risking a DQ.

Message edited by author 2007-12-17 12:53:52.
12/17/2007 12:54:38 PM · #73
IMO, I look at both images and see very distint items that have been removed, it's really hard when you look at two images like this and say only one changed the perspective of the shot. I voted them both very highly but feel they both pushed the envolope about the same ammount and if one gets the DQ then my feelings are they should both get the DQ.

Not bashing SC because I know it has to be a hard call but with instant replay we are able to see the calls side by side which makes it a no brainer that both should be OK'd or both DQ'd.
12/17/2007 01:08:43 PM · #74
From my experience the positives outway the negatives. So hopefully the DQes won't phase anyone. I think it's always better to just play it safe and if you're really concerned, contact SC before voting starts. In the end these threads also help the rest of us understand what works and what doesn't in PP, will make more folks play it safe, which is also a challenge in itself. Trying to get the shot as ready out of the cam.

I agree with Bear here. In the camp of both being DQed or not. I'm in agreement with the SC most of the time but a little confused this time, but won't point figures or blame as I think it's hard a job as it is and no one enjoys DQing shots.

First want to say I really like Onar's image, it was one of my favorite closeup shots from the challenge. Really cool image, DQ or not. It's a keeper.

Seeing the before and after of both shots...Dirt_Diver's shot kept the perspective for me, even though it seems like a more significant job to have gotten it cleaning to get the white out to the right. To me it still looked like it was a shot taken inside, mostly likely in a dealership studio.
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It really didn't significantly change my "typical viewer’s description of the photograph", that quote people use a lot in the thread, but Crabappl's did.

Crabappl3' shot took away all the perspective. I'd compare it more to Jjbeguin's image which got DQed than to Driver's image above.
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It's interesting though that both cars are Mustangs? 8)

12/17/2007 01:20:05 PM · #75
in this particular case ... my position as well

i'll sleep ok tonight, though

:)

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Simms:

(although I still think they got it right when DQ'ing your image, but got it wrong letting the other one through..)


That would be my position also.

R.


Message edited by author 2007-12-17 13:20:12.
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