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04/23/2008 11:35:36 AM · #126
Originally posted by pawdrix:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I invite all to read in the science and theology II thread my salvation testimony and request that you all place your testimony for all of the atheists to read. Let's all be gardeners for God and plant some seeds there. ...We all need to stay in touch or form a group or have a forum on here just for us. ...Maybe forum isnt the right word? Something more than just a thread though is what I was going for.


That sounds like prostheletizing to me. I don't have the stomach to read this entire thread but from what I have read it smells like theres a deeper motive beyond a simple little chat.

make it go away...


I have an idea. If you don't like it then don't read it. No one invited non-Christians to post in this thread. If you are not Christian or have a genuine interest in it except to say that you can't stomach it then why are you here?

Message edited by author 2008-04-23 11:56:31.
04/23/2008 11:37:52 AM · #127
Originally posted by dponlyme:

No one invited non-Christians to post in this thread.

Yup. That's exactly the problem, now, isn't it? Good luck trying to refute the charge of being divisive now.
04/23/2008 11:41:31 AM · #128
For those of you who feel compelled to register your discomfort/annoyance/disagreement in this thread, these questions:

1. How many of you, walking past a street-corner preacher in a city or town feel compelled to stop and either debate or ridicule his beliefs?

2. How many of you, if attending a large social function, upon encountering over in a corner a group of 5-6 Christians discussing their beliefs, would feel compelled to join the group and either debate or ridicule their beliefs?

3. How many of you.... Never mind, you get the idea.

This community is an "open space", a "commons". All are welcome to their beliefs. If you don't want to listen to them, then ignore them, just as you would the corner preacher or the social group. It is NOT necessary to enter into the discussion just because it is taking place.

Thanks for listening.

R.
04/23/2008 11:46:40 AM · #129
Originally posted by dponlyme:

I have an idea. If you don't like it then don't read it. No one invited non-Christians to post in this thread. If you are not Christian or have a genuine interest in it except to say that you can't stomach it then why are you here?


"Something more than just a thread though is what I was going for. [/quote]

My friend, you called for a "forum" or "Something more than just a thread" and that treads on me. This is no place for evangelism.

There are thousands upon thousands of other places where you can share your faith on the internet. It's a photography site.

04/23/2008 11:48:11 AM · #130
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by sher:

the science and theology II thread is a proven debate thread so i see no harm in the call for people of opposing faiths to post their views in that thread.

You're right, it's a proven debate thread. It is not a forum for yet more tiresome proselytization, which is why, I would imagine, that those individuals who choose to ignore the debate aspect of the thread find themselves the subject of ridicule. I'm frankly surprised that you would advocate "thumpery" in that thread, which flies in the face of the spirit of the conversation.


i'm not advocating thumpery, by any means. i simply wanted to point out that there was no incitement to disrupt the "calling all atheists/agnostics" thread.

regardless, i don't think anyone should be ridiculed for their beliefs.
04/23/2008 11:48:18 AM · #131
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by sher:

the science and theology II thread is a proven debate thread so i see no harm in the call for people of opposing faiths to post their views in that thread.

You're right, it's a proven debate thread. It is not a forum for yet more tiresome proselytization, which is why, I would imagine, that those individuals who choose to ignore the debate aspect of the thread find themselves the subject of ridicule. I'm frankly surprised that you would advocate "thumpery" in that thread, which flies in the face of the spirit of the conversation.


So you are saying that it is not the appropriate place to discuss ones personal experiences with religion? The Science and theology thread is not the right place to discuss theology? Thumpery? You mean like 10 atheists calling me a monkey,a raving lunatic,an idiot, and stupid for believing in God?
04/23/2008 11:49:41 AM · #132
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

For those of you who feel compelled to register your discomfort/annoyance/disagreement in this thread, these questions:

1. How many of you, walking past a street-corner preacher in a city or town feel compelled to stop and either debate or ridicule his beliefs? ...

How many, if coming upon a group of people talking about how gays are damned to hell, would stop to voice their objection? How many, if coming on a group of people talking about how they are determined to change others' minds because belief trumps reason, and this should extend to schools and government, would stop to voice their objection? How many would object to a proposed exclusionary society of fellows in a forum dedicated to inclusion? Etc. These are the actual arguments being refuted, here and elsewhere. You're quite correct that many might choose to ignore such inflammatory viewpoints, but many more find them objectionable enough to say something about it.

Message edited by author 2008-04-23 11:50:50.
04/23/2008 11:51:21 AM · #133
Originally posted by dponlyme:

... Open your eyes and ears and put down your beer and actually use the brain that God gave you to examine yourself to determine where you could improve in relating to your fellow human beings in a civilized manner.


Oh my...now this is indeed a prime example on how to entice people to have a civilized conversation... and from a Christian no less.

Ray
04/23/2008 11:52:03 AM · #134
Originally posted by pawdrix:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I have an idea. If you don't like it then don't read it. No one invited non-Christians to post in this thread. If you are not Christian or have a genuine interest in it except to say that you can't stomach it then why are you here?


"Something more than just a thread though is what I was going for.


My friend, you called for a "forum" or "Something more than just a thread" and that treads on me. This is no place for evangelism.

There are thousands upon thousands of other places where you can share your faith on the internet. It's a photography site. [/quote]

Yes, this is a photography site... and there are many Christian Photographers here. I've been staying out of this thread for the most part because I believe that once (as Christians) we start arguing rather than debating (which I fear has started to happen here), we've already failed. that said, this question to those who have a problem with this thread:

would you have a different respone if this was a thread about how our Belief relate to how we do photography? (i.e. choosing religios theme for our photos, or how we do business ar Christian photographers) is the problem the Christianity of the thread our the lack of photogaphy relivance?
04/23/2008 11:55:09 AM · #135
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

How many of you, walking past a street-corner preacher in a city or town feel compelled to stop and either debate or ridicule his beliefs?

Not me... unless he was preaching in a forum that debated science and theology, etc. HOWEVER, if he was trying to bring his sermon into my favorite photography forum, I'd suggest a different venue (particularly with the "you don't belong here" attitude).
04/23/2008 11:56:11 AM · #136
Originally posted by dponlyme:

So you are saying that it is not the appropriate place to discuss ones personal experiences with religion? The Science and theology thread is not the right place to discuss theology?

It's the right place to discuss theology. It is not the right place to discuss how all the other participants are merely Christians-to-be, waiting for the right person -- specifically, you -- to come along, and how saddened you are at the mere existence of non-believers. That, my friend, in a conversation about ideas as opposed to beliefs, is cause for ridicule in the spirit of the great Thomas Jefferson.

In any event, your sense of what was said to you over there is over-dramatized, to say the least.
04/23/2008 12:01:35 PM · #137
Originally posted by Eyesup:

would you have a different respone if this was a thread about how our Belief relate to how we do photography? (i.e. choosing religios theme for our photos, or how we do business ar Christian photographers)

If there were such a thread, what would your response be if I posted there asking for pointers on how to shoot subjects that best reflected my atheism? My Buddhism? My Sikhism? My Hinduism? My gayism? My blackism? I'd be something of a third wheel, no? I'd be somehow excluded from things, no?
04/23/2008 12:05:12 PM · #138
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

No one invited non-Christians to post in this thread.

Yup. That's exactly the problem, now, isn't it? Good luck trying to refute the charge of being divisive now.


divisive? I am not being divisive at all. I fail to see how I am being divisive. I simply sought to meet other Christians. How is that divisive? What if I had sought to meet other Catholics (not that I am Catholic). Would that be divisive to the community or merely the Christian segment of the community. I guess I shouldn't be allowed to try and meet people of the same faith as myself. I did not invite people to attack me and say that I think I am better than others. That I most surely did not do. I wonder why an atheist would want to follow me out of the religion and theology thread which I left of my own accord to attack me when I am doing nothing that is of any concern to them.
04/23/2008 12:08:50 PM · #139
Originally posted by pawdrix:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I have an idea. If you don't like it then don't read it. No one invited non-Christians to post in this thread. If you are not Christian or have a genuine interest in it except to say that you can't stomach it then why are you here?


"Something more than just a thread though is what I was going for.

My friend, you called for a "forum" or "Something more than just a thread" and that treads on me. This is no place for evangelism.

There are thousands upon thousands of other places where you can share your faith on the internet. It's a photography site.


I see nothing wrong with having a Christian forum where perhaps we could discuss photography AND our our faith. Why are you so scared. What do you fear will happen as a reult?

Message edited by author 2008-04-23 12:26:40.
04/23/2008 12:11:21 PM · #140
Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

No one invited non-Christians to post in this thread.

divisive? I am not being divisive at all. I fail to see how I am being divisive.

Riiight.

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I wonder why an atheist would want to follow me out of the religion and theology thread... when I am doing nothing that is of any concern to them.

Let's assume I believe humans are all the creations of an invisible giant eggplant. No matter how silly it sounds, I have the right to believe that, and my personal belief shouldn't be offensive to others. I wouldn't begrudge anyone that right. Now let's say I visit some very nice photography website and find a thread titled, "Calling all believers of the invisible giant eggplant." I certainly am not part of that group, but there's a certain curiosity factor in such an outlandish belief (plus SC are supposed to cruise the forums). If you don't share my faith in the Eggplant, then to you my evangelism would look something like this:

I believe that the Eggplant has chosen you--- he created you --- he awaits your knocking so that you too can have exactly what I have. His vegetarian Love is branching out to you through me. He waits for you too out in the garden with a patience that is incomprehensible. Ask yourself why you feel so offended by a bunch of crazies that believe in an invisible Eggplant that doesn't exist?

Offended? Nope. If I regard the whole Eggplant premise as silly, then I can laugh it off and/or simply choose not the read the thread. I have no problem with people sharing their common interests with each other, HOWEVER if someone wants to create "something more than just a thread" and use it as a staging area to "all be gardeners for the almighty Eggplant and plant some seeds there," and create areas where "no one invited you to post," then you're moving into territory that ruins the site experience for people who don't believe as you do.
04/23/2008 12:13:11 PM · #141
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Eyesup:

would you have a different respone if this was a thread about how our Belief relate to how we do photography? (i.e. choosing religios theme for our photos, or how we do business ar Christian photographers)

If there were such a thread, what would your response be if I posted there asking for pointers on how to shoot subjects that best reflected my atheism? My Buddhism? My Sikhism? My Hinduism? My gayism? My blackism? I'd be something of a third wheel, no? I'd be somehow excluded from things, no?


But then isn't to opposite true. If because it might exclude someone I should not post on a matter of my faith relating to photography, then then a) the same would have to be true of others (and extreme example would be posting about how my being a Nikon use affects my photography business... a Cannon user might feel excluded) b) because I can't post to that subject then I am in a way excluded.

but put that aside, what if it was a thread on how religion in general affect photography? or is it that Religion should be kept entirly out? (which really isn't possible)
04/23/2008 12:17:00 PM · #142
Originally posted by Eyesup:



would you have a different respone if this was a thread about how our Belief relate to how we do photography? (i.e. choosing religios theme for our photos, or how we do business ar Christian photographers) is the problem the Christianity of the thread our the lack of photogaphy relivance?


The OP is seeding an effort to pass his faith onto others. That is his job.

This is evangelism. I don't think any thinly veiled ties to photography will change that.

I could be wrong but a spade is a spade and in my mind this is a spade. A Flush. It's a touchy topic, it gets peoples backs up, it makes people(me) extremely uncomfortable, for whatever reason.

I think someone mentioned a Gay Forum...wouldn't that piss a bunch of people off? I's say no to that, as well.

Message edited by author 2008-04-23 12:28:48.
04/23/2008 12:18:22 PM · #143
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

For those of you who feel compelled to register your discomfort/annoyance/disagreement in this thread, these questions:

1. How many of you, walking past a street-corner preacher in a city or town feel compelled to stop and either debate or ridicule his beliefs? ...

How many, if coming upon a group of people talking about how gays are damned to hell, would stop to voice their objection? How many, if coming on a group of people talking about how they are determined to change others' minds because belief trumps reason, and this should extend to schools and government, would stop to voice their objection? How many would object to a proposed exclusionary society of fellows in a forum dedicated to inclusion? Etc. These are the actual arguments being refuted, here and elsewhere. You're quite correct that many might choose to ignore such inflammatory viewpoints, but many more find them objectionable enough to say something about it.


Man you are stretching it to the breaking point here. Gays are not damned to hell for one thing and those who would espouse such an opinion does not have a very good grip on what Jesus was all about. They are no more condemned to hell than you are. Jesus shed his blood for everyones sins. Once and for all. Gays are no worse than adulterers and those that have divorced. There is only one unforgivable sin and that is having knowledge of God and having his Holy Spirit indwell you and knowing for sure of God's existence and then choosing to reject him (not just backsliding but out and out conscious rejection). It's called balspheming against the Holy Spirit. As far as exclusionary-- that is not what I seek at all. As you well know, I would want to include everyone. I hope you choose to join us. I should not however have to tolerate you intolerance of my beliefs.
04/23/2008 12:18:46 PM · #144
Originally posted by dponlyme:

I fail to see how I am being divisive...


By attempting to create a social / religious separation amongst the members of the community. While you may not understand how that is occurring, the fact of it happening still exists.

Sometimes, it isn't easy to accept information from others, especially on issues we hold dear. BUT - sometimes we learn the most by simply asking "how COULD we find a common ground?" or "thank you for your input; could you help me find a better / more agreeable way?"

People's opinion of deity(ies) may not agree, but we can ALL learn from one another.
04/23/2008 12:21:20 PM · #145
Originally posted by scalvert:

I have no problem with people sharing their common interests with each other, HOWEVER if someone wants to create "something more than just a thread" and use it as a staging area to "all be gardeners for the almighty Eggplant and plant some seeds there," and create areas where "no one invited you to post," then you're moving into territory that ruins the site experience for people who don't believe as you do.


and the Christians who posted before you had already said that having a separate area or "something more than a thread" probably wouldn't be a good idea.
04/23/2008 12:22:01 PM · #146
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

... Open your eyes and ears and put down your beer and actually use the brain that God gave you to examine yourself to determine where you could improve in relating to your fellow human beings in a civilized manner.


Oh my...now this is indeed a prime example on how to entice people to have a civilized conversation... and from a Christian no less.

Ray


Christian doesn't mean that I can't get offended or angry. I was point blank called stupid and my beliefs stupid. It was uncalled for. It was offensive as is your implication that Christians apparently should just lie down and be run over.
04/23/2008 12:26:35 PM · #147
Originally posted by sher:

the Christians who posted before you had already said that having a separate area or "something more than a thread" probably wouldn't be a good idea.

Yup, and I didn't post anything until I saw an attempt to spread evangelism to other parts of the site-
Originally posted by dponlyme:

...the testimony we would hopefully share with each other would perhaps serve to open the minds of those who only see the money grubbing false prophet...

04/23/2008 12:32:20 PM · #148
Originally posted by dponlyme:

I was point blank called stupid and my beliefs stupid. It was uncalled for.

Where?
04/23/2008 12:38:27 PM · #149
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

No one invited non-Christians to post in this thread.

divisive? I am not being divisive at all. I fail to see how I am being divisive.

Riiight.

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I wonder why an atheist would want to follow me out of the religion and theology thread... when I am doing nothing that is of any concern to them.

Let's assume I believe humans are all the creations of an invisible giant eggplant. No matter how silly it sounds, I have the right to believe that, and my personal belief shouldn't be offensive to others. I wouldn't begrudge anyone that right. Now let's say I visit some very nice photography website and find a thread titled, "Calling all believers of the invisible giant eggplant." I certainly am not part of that group, but there's a certain curiosity factor in such an outlandish belief (plus SC are supposed to cruise the forums). If you don't share my faith in the Eggplant, then to you my evangelism would look something like this:

I believe that the Eggplant has chosen you--- he created you --- he awaits your knocking so that you too can have exactly what I have. His vegetarian Love is branching out to you through me. He waits for you too out in the garden with a patience that is incomprehensible. Ask yourself why you feel so offended by a bunch of crazies that believe in an invisible Eggplant that doesn't exist?

Offended? Nope. If I regard the whole Eggplant premise as silly, then I can laugh it off and/or simply choose not the read the thread. I have no problem with people sharing their common interests with each other, HOWEVER if someone wants to create "something more than just a thread" and use it as a staging area to "all be gardeners for the almighty Eggplant and plant some seeds there," and create areas where "no one invited you to post," then you're moving into territory that ruins the site experience for people who don't believe as you do.


I did not mean as you say to have a staging ground or whatever you are talking about. I stated quite clearly that my goal was never to convert everyone at DPC. If it happened then great. If they all came to the Christian space and received Jesus Christ as their savior I will not say that it would not please me. I also do not seek to create a space where no one else could post either but I would ask that the posts be born of a genuine interest in the stated topic and not simply for the sake of persecution and disruption. Much like people in the Nikon thread don't ruin it for the canon people I fail to see how a Christian thread could ruin it for everyone here. You are saying that having a Christian space on DPC would destroy it? That is just completely ridiculouos. What evidence do you have that shows people would desert the site? (that's the only way I see that it could be destroyed). You could enjoy every other aspect of the forums and the entire site but having a Christian space would just destroy or ruin the experience? That is just crap and you know it.
04/23/2008 12:42:41 PM · #150
scalvert - you have posted in another thread that your wife teaches catechism on Sunday mornings and your children attend. You also posted that you do not have these "anti christian" discussions with her. In my opinion, you should clean your own house before you go sticking your nose elsewhere. You are truly offensive. Is your intense concern over a community of christians here on DPC the result of you being muzzled at home? I've worked with guys before that were real bastards at work only to discover that at home they could'nt even speak. If you have personal issues, then deal with them at home. I don't need your crap here. As I posted earlier - we can have our "debate" in the other thread.

Message edited by author 2008-04-23 12:46:14.
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