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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> A religious question
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07/28/2008 04:21:10 PM · #1
Originally posted by heavyj:

For those who believe in God (Any religion), can I get your opinion on the following:

A man is diagnosed with terminal cancer and only finds out in the last month of his natural life. He could choose to stay home and die peacefully or go to a hospital and taken cared of perhaps more comfortably and possibly longer.

However, he chooses a different route. He decides in his final days, in days where he realizes that something 'feels' wrong, to go skydiving, and instead of opening his shoot, he just looks up at the sky and heavens, perhaps says a prayer, and goes out with a smile on his face. Would this be a sin. While technically suicide, do you think that God would look at it that way, or would He say 'You left this world with an open mind and clean conscience, and you will entire my Kingdom the same way.' or something similar? Or do you think he would be damned for doing what he did?

I don't offer any religious opinion, but as someone who (literally) had to clean up after a father-in-law's suicide by gunshot in the basement of his house, I think it's a shitty, cowardly, self-centered thing to do to your family.

If the only concern is how it would be perceived by God, somehow I don't think God would condone it......and I'd never ask Him, having been there first hand to see the wreckage.
07/28/2008 02:02:16 PM · #2
Originally posted by heavyj:

For those who believe in God (Any religion), can I get your opinion on the following:

A man is diagnosed with terminal cancer and only finds out in the last month of his natural life. He could choose to stay home and die peacefully or go to a hospital and taken cared of perhaps more comfortably and possibly longer.

However, he chooses a different route. He decides in his final days, in days where he realizes that something 'feels' wrong, to go skydiving, and instead of opening his shoot, he just looks up at the sky and heavens, perhaps says a prayer, and goes out with a smile on his face. Would this be a sin. While technically suicide, do you think that God would look at it that way, or would He say 'You left this world with an open mind and clean conscience, and you will entire my Kingdom the same way.' or something similar? Or do you think he would be damned for doing what he did?


1. You have asked for an opinion.
2. You have presented a situation of terminal illness and suicide.
3. You have asked if this is a sin (from a religious standpoint).
4. You have asked for the responder to answer for God.

Religion is relative. Some current Islamic fundamentalists believe suicide as a means to salvation. If this person instead of skydiving chose a body bomb - well... Then we have pilots from Japan who committed suicide by flying their planes into warships during WWII. Then we have historical recoddings of soldiers from various faiths commiting suicide by falling on a grenade to save comrades. Each of these is suicide, but I suspect God may view them differently. If God is the orchastrator of the universe and each character has a role in the larger picture, then for one to exit on their own terms would likely (imo) not sit well with God. If God would have Kings eat grass before exhalting them again, or allow Daniel to be thrown into den of Lions or allow the death of thousands of 1st century christians as martyrs to bring about the conversion of Rome, then for one to simply fail to open their chute with intent and forethought, would likely exclude them from Gods intended afterlife. If a person sacrificed themselves (either by covering a grenade or by submitting to a certain death - read Peter's upside down Crucifixtion) then, I suspect that God would look favorably upon those actions. It is the heart that gets judged. Not the action.

As grown men, we can chose our actions. Regardless of what I have learned and believe, I still can chose an action that contradicts those teachings. Sometimes a man just has to do what a man has to do. If taking my last motorcyle ride means it is my last ride by choice, then I should be ready to face any consequence.
07/22/2008 11:50:10 PM · #3
Originally posted by raish:

Disingenuous post, really. Someone saying they give up and that it doesn't matter what others believe. If you state your opinion and everyone else can believe what they want then that's about as good as it gets. Given the pejorative tone, it would seem that the poster would actually prefer that people agree with the poster's opinion. So it does matter what they believe. If the poster were not an evangelist then there would be nothing to give up on. The god gets really fired up about stuff like this.


I'm a Christian, but belong to no particular denomination. I have far too many questions about Christianity than I do answers. I have felt one way on an issue and then after talking and listening to others have changed my mind on the topic. Other times it's just re-enforced my belief. I'm not looking for anyone to agree with my opinion, because my opinion is based on a loose idea that God would see that perhaps the pain this particular man may endure, and the suffering his family would go through, would far out way a free fall jump into the desert where he'll hit no one (God would make sure of that) and God was the one that perhaps set things in motion for this to happen. Like I said, a loose idea...
07/22/2008 08:56:35 PM · #4
Originally posted by raish:

The god gets really fired up about stuff like this.


So does the dog.
07/22/2008 05:34:43 PM · #5
Disingenuous post, really. Someone saying they give up and that it doesn't matter what others believe. If you state your opinion and everyone else can believe what they want then that's about as good as it gets. Given the pejorative tone, it would seem that the poster would actually prefer that people agree with the poster's opinion. So it does matter what they believe. If the poster were not an evangelist then there would be nothing to give up on. The god gets really fired up about stuff like this.
07/22/2008 03:45:22 PM · #6
Originally posted by dponlyme:

I Give UP...


Don't give up... surely you believe in your position enough to battle on.

Ray
07/22/2008 02:32:33 PM · #7
I Give UP... I gave my opinion and you people can believe whatever you want.. you can believe that God doesn't exist or that he murders babies or does or doesn't give us free will or that there are or aren't disputable matters... whatever you want.

edited to make more clear.

Message edited by author 2008-07-22 15:13:46.
07/22/2008 11:48:03 AM · #8
Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by karmat:

Just to maybe clear some things up, because y'all confused me.

It wasn't just Egyptian babies. It was the firstborn in every family. So, it could be the grandfather, the husband, and the first son, as well as Jack the family goat.

Earlier in the same story, the babies killed were Hebrew children when Pharoah ordered all young males to be killed.


True.

Sorry for the mix up.

But, logicaly, you would have to assume this meant that at least SOME babies died. This included baby egyptian royalty, their slaves, their pets, their cattle...everything FIRST born. (exodus 11:5-- And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts)


Where is the biblical reference that the whole passover kill the firstborn referred to animals? Now if God wants to "take back the souls" (semantics) of the Egyptian people, well than maybe that is one wat to put it- but assuming that there is no biblical basis for animal souls, if God "removes life" from all firstborn that looks like wholesale slaughter.

PERHAPS IT WAS JUST A STORY TELLER SAYING_ HEY EGYPT DON"T MESS WITH US IN THE FUTURE. Don't take the bible so literally.
07/22/2008 11:39:09 AM · #9
Originally posted by karmat:

Just to maybe clear some things up, because y'all confused me.

It wasn't just Egyptian babies. It was the firstborn in every family. So, it could be the grandfather, the husband, and the first son, as well as Jack the family goat.

Earlier in the same story, the babies killed were Hebrew children when Pharoah ordered all young males to be killed.


True.

Sorry for the mix up.

But, logicaly, you would have to assume this meant that at least SOME babies died. This included baby egyptian royalty, their slaves, their pets, their cattle...everything FIRST born. (exodus 11:5-- And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts)

Message edited by author 2008-07-22 11:40:47.
07/22/2008 11:36:59 AM · #10
Originally posted by dponlyme:



I am not playing semantics games. you don't see the huge distinction between God killing the egyptian babies and MURDERING them? Make no mistake those babies were not unfortunate. They were chosen. We are his posessions. He made us. He also does give us free will to choose but if God hardens your heart then chances are you will choose to do evil. The heart is that place where we make our moral decisions from. He did not force Pharoah to defy him. Pharaoh chose to.



Maybe you haven't read the story?

Pharoah had let them go...then his heart was hardened (by GOD) and he chased after them.

Where is the free will in this story? His original intent was to let them go, because of his heartache over losing his son......then God took away that free will, hardened his heart and he chased after them.

Methinks you don't read your bible.
07/22/2008 10:11:10 AM · #11
Just to maybe clear some things up, because y'all confused me.

It wasn't just Egyptian babies. It was the firstborn in every family. So, it could be the grandfather, the husband, and the first son, as well as Jack the family goat.

Earlier in the same story, the babies killed were Hebrew children when Pharoah ordered all young males to be killed.
07/22/2008 09:03:08 AM · #12
Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


I don't think that you can have your cake ("sinfulness is a matter of conscience") and eat it ("some sins are absolute"). For example, there are a number of instances in the bible where god condones and encourages murder, and at least one where being willing to execute a child in the name of god is rewarded.

Nor does your bible give you the latitude to come up with this kind of assessment in god's name:

Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
For who can know the Lord’s thoughts? Who knows enough to give him advice?
[Romans 11:33-34]


I think I can! What don't you understand about this? Some things are laid out to be utterly sinful. Murder. Adultery. Idolatry. Covetousness. Stealing. etc. Some things are disputable and are not clearly laid out.

Romans 14 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.


To paraphrase: Whatever you believe, it's OK with God as long as you really believe it.

Now if you look at all the "rules" in the Bible where certain acts are defined as sinful, that absolutely conflicts with the passage you quote. Just another example of being able to interpret the bible to support whatever position you choose.

07/22/2008 03:33:53 AM · #13
Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by dponlyme:



First of all I said MURDERING babies is utterly sinful. Second of all if you think that God murdered babies then you are sadly mistaken and obviously do not understand God or his word the Bible. God is the creator of life. We are in fact his posessions. He gives us free will to do as we please only because he decides to. If he wants to take back all of the souls of the Egyptian firstborn they are his to take. This is NOT murder.


You can play semantics games all day...
the fact is....God killed the first born of egypt....

as for free will....I guess you could call it FREE WILL when he HARDENED the heart of the pharoah?

Once again, I am a Christian...but I am also an intelligent reader that doesn't gloss over the 'facts' presented in the bible.

In fact...you are tying yourself up in your own arguements. How can we be HIS POSSESSIONS..and yet have free will? those egyptian babies sure didn't have free will...they were only unfortunate enough to be born to stubborn parents.


I am not playing semantics games. you don't see the huge distinction between God killing the egyptian babies and MURDERING them? Make no mistake those babies were not unfortunate. They were chosen. We are his posessions. He made us. He also does give us free will to choose but if God hardens your heart then chances are you will choose to do evil. The heart is that place where we make our moral decisions from. He did not force Pharoah to defy him. Pharaoh chose to.

New International Version:
Romans Ch 9:
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

07/22/2008 02:45:42 AM · #14
Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


I don't think that you can have your cake ("sinfulness is a matter of conscience") and eat it ("some sins are absolute"). For example, there are a number of instances in the bible where god condones and encourages murder, and at least one where being willing to execute a child in the name of god is rewarded.

Nor does your bible give you the latitude to come up with this kind of assessment in god's name:

Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
For who can know the Lord’s thoughts? Who knows enough to give him advice?
[Romans 11:33-34]


I think I can! What don't you understand about this? Some things are laid out to be utterly sinful. Murder. Adultery. Idolatry. Covetousness. Stealing. etc. Some things are disputable and are not clearly laid out.

Romans 14 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
07/22/2008 02:42:08 AM · #15
Originally posted by dponlyme:


First of all I said MURDERING babies is utterly sinful. Second of all if you think that God murdered babies then you are sadly mistaken and obviously do not understand God or his word the Bible. God is the creator of life. We are in fact his posessions. He gives us free will to do as we please only because he decides to. If he wants to take back all of the souls of the Egyptian firstborn they are his to take. This is NOT murder.


You never addressed the underlying question.

If I FEEL IN MY HEART..that it is right, good and GODLY to kill babies.....how is it a sin, according to your earlier statement?
07/22/2008 02:40:58 AM · #16
Originally posted by dponlyme:



First of all I said MURDERING babies is utterly sinful. Second of all if you think that God murdered babies then you are sadly mistaken and obviously do not understand God or his word the Bible. God is the creator of life. We are in fact his posessions. He gives us free will to do as we please only because he decides to. If he wants to take back all of the souls of the Egyptian firstborn they are his to take. This is NOT murder.


You can play semantics games all day...
the fact is....God killed the first born of egypt....

as for free will....I guess you could call it FREE WILL when he HARDENED the heart of the pharoah?

Once again, I am a Christian...but I am also an intelligent reader that doesn't gloss over the 'facts' presented in the bible.

In fact...you are tying yourself up in your own arguements. How can we be HIS POSSESSIONS..and yet have free will? those egyptian babies sure didn't have free will...they were only unfortunate enough to be born to stubborn parents.

Message edited by author 2008-07-22 02:43:52.
07/22/2008 02:31:49 AM · #17
Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by dponlyme:



If killing babies puts a smile on your face you definitely have a relationship with Jesus... you are his enemy. God judges a man's heart and if one is fully convinced in his heart that what he is doing is consistent with God's will and is not sinful then it will not be imputed to him as sin. However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


also. What if kiling infants lets me sleep better at night? (i am convinced this activity is both moral and Godly?)


As I said some things... MURDER being one of them... are laid out to be utterly sinful. There is no ambiguity.


Really? Who decides which things utterly sinful and which ones aren't? Fred Phelps? The Pope? The guy with the really big church and a TV show? You?

Nothing in the bible is absolute, it's all twisted by whoever is interpreting it to mean what they want.
07/22/2008 02:13:45 AM · #18
Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by dponlyme:



If killing babies puts a smile on your face you definitely have a relationship with Jesus... you are his enemy. God judges a man's heart and if one is fully convinced in his heart that what he is doing is consistent with God's will and is not sinful then it will not be imputed to him as sin. However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


also. What if kiling infants lets me sleep better at night? (i am convinced this activity is both moral and Godly?)


As I said some things... MURDER being one of them... are laid out to be utterly sinful. There is no ambiguity.
07/22/2008 02:11:11 AM · #19
Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

God judges a man's heart and if one is fully convinced in his heart that what he is doing is consistent with God's will and is not sinful then it will not be imputed to him as sin. However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


How is killing infants UTTERLY sinful? God did it...to the egyptian firstborn....

I am a Christian..but I am having a really hard time seeing where you are coming from.


First of all I said MURDERING babies is utterly sinful. Second of all if you think that God murdered babies then you are sadly mistaken and obviously do not understand God or his word the Bible. God is the creator of life. We are in fact his posessions. He gives us free will to do as we please only because he decides to. If he wants to take back all of the souls of the Egyptian firstborn they are his to take. This is NOT murder.
07/21/2008 04:10:25 PM · #20
Can't remember if this started out as a rant. My major concern was that suicide not be so easily judged; and yet I have been thinking of what ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_N.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_N.gif', '/') + 1) . ' zeuszen said about embracing whatever it is that falls on your plate - loose paraphrase - and wish to affirm its profundity.
07/21/2008 04:00:19 PM · #21
Originally posted by blindjustice:



For one reason, then you have goofsballs going around and saying that every natural disaster is God's punishment for Homosexuality or this or the other thing. And also, if that Old Testament wrath was still around, how do you explain the continued existence of Camden, New Jersey?(no offense to anyone who lives there...I'm joking- I could have used any miserably depressing city)


Those people do not know what they are talking about. The OT never mentions homosexuality as the PRIMARY reason for the destruction of S & G. They were destroyed for their OVERALL sinfulness. Not one specific sin....IN MY OPINION! :)

There are nutjobs in EVERY religion. We just have to shake our head and sigh whenever they open their mouths.

Message edited by author 2008-07-21 16:01:23.
07/21/2008 03:56:49 PM · #22
Originally posted by dponlyme:



If killing babies puts a smile on your face you definitely have a relationship with Jesus... you are his enemy. God judges a man's heart and if one is fully convinced in his heart that what he is doing is consistent with God's will and is not sinful then it will not be imputed to him as sin. However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


also. What if kiling infants lets me sleep better at night? (i am convinced this activity is both moral and Godly?)
07/21/2008 03:55:32 PM · #23
Originally posted by dponlyme:

God judges a man's heart and if one is fully convinced in his heart that what he is doing is consistent with God's will and is not sinful then it will not be imputed to him as sin. However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


How is killing infants UTTERLY sinful? God did it...to the egyptian firstborn....

I am a Christian..but I am having a really hard time seeing where you are coming from.
07/21/2008 03:53:24 PM · #24
Originally posted by paddles:

Fortunately, getting into heaven doesn't depend on scoring 100% on a theology exam


I am sorry, you only scored a 99. You will now be escorted to the exit of ETERNAL HELLFIRE AND DAMNATION!!

Yeah, that would suck. Thank God for mercy.
07/21/2008 03:07:09 PM · #25
Originally posted by theSaj:

Originally posted by karmat:

In my OPINION (<--------capitalized word is very important here), I THINK, based on my Christian views, that if he had accepted Christ as his savior, then, yes, he would be shown mercy and go to Heaven.


I feel similarly...

I'll also reference the story of Samson, who was given strength to bring down the pillars. And thus end his own life as well. While I believe the man may have taken an opportunity for God to divinely and miraculously heal him, strengthening both his and others faith. I do not believe suicide precludes entrance into heaven, especially as murder does not preclude such entrance.

Some will harp on the need to confess every sin. Well, in that case, I doubt anyone will go to heaven. I am sure even the best of us have failed to recognize a sin. And the odds of hitting the confessional just before death is fairly unlikely for most of us. I believe a lot more of the judgment is focused on one's heart?

Now, frankly, if I were the man...I wouldn't fail to pull the cord. But hey, I might go hang gliding, cliff jumping, extreme skiing. Do all those things that I might not because they are risky. Knowing that if I was one of the rare unfortunates who had an accident - I'd only lose a month or so.

***

Can anyone know the fullness of God's wisdom or knowledge. No...

Ironically, I'll also quote on that same man whom Matthew refers who acted in obedience in regards to the matter of his son. Who petitioned the Lord on sparing the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah if there be 50, 45, 30, 20 and even 10 righteous men. And the Lord said he'd spare the city for even 10. So while we may not be able to know God's mind or give advice - it's does hurt to try sometimes. ;)


Literal bible talk scares me. I don't believe, it is not my opinion, and It should not be spoken of in Modern times that God "destroyed cities" for their moral terribleness.

For one reason, then you have goofsballs going around and saying that every natural disaster is God's punishment for Homosexuality or this or the other thing. And also, if that Old Testament wrath was still around, how do you explain the continued existence of Camden, New Jersey?(no offense to anyone who lives there...I'm joking- I could have used any miserably depressing city)
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