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07/20/2008 08:09:38 AM · #26
[quote=blindjustice] Everyone is so judgemental.

The OP asked the question from a religious perspective. God is very judgemental. He sets a high bar for us. From a religious perspective, commiting a mortal sin as your final act on earth is not a good way to get into heaven. But none of us is the one who will be judgeing him. I pray that he doesn't suffer, and has eternal life.
The path to heaven is clear from the bible. We are not being judgemental, we are just answering the question.
07/20/2008 08:57:38 AM · #27
Some people here write something along the lines of "In my opinion, God will do [this and that]." while others provide a contradicting view "In my opinion, God will do [something else]".

Do you think that your treatment after death depends on your opinion? Everyone gets what they expect? That would be nice, but it's probably not the case.

This means that at most one of those providing their "opinion" can be correct. How could we figure out which one (if any) it is?
07/20/2008 09:40:26 AM · #28
Originally posted by Sam94720:

Some people here write something along the lines of "In my opinion, God will do [this and that]." while others provide a contradicting view "In my opinion, God will do [something else]".

Do you think that your treatment after death depends on your opinion? Everyone gets what they expect? That would be nice, but it's probably not the case.

This means that at most one of those providing their "opinion" can be correct. How could we figure out which one (if any) it is?


excellent point:

previous responders asked for a religious perspective; not a christian one.
Why should whether or not my final act gets me into heaven depend on the opinion of a corrupt church in the 13th century, the same one that might let you buy your way into that same heaven? Or upon a church that says kill an infidel and if you die you will have 1000 virgins? Or a religion that says your rank will decline if you do this- maybe comeback as a cockroach(or perhaps a fuji owner...)

WHen that cancer ridden bastard is in the air, thinking of what to do- he must use his inner compass; and trust that his soul is just the same no matter what he does.

07/20/2008 09:40:27 AM · #29
Do not consider myself religious but I am a Believer - what I believe: II Timothy 2:15 states "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." We first need to understand the present dispensation we live and distinguish 'the gospel of the grace of God' revealed to the Apostle Paul from 'the gospel of the kingdom' based on Jesus' earthly ministry under the law to the nation of Israel. The earthly kingdom and the prophetic belong to Israel alone - not to Gentiles. Mixing this up has caused much of the confusion/disorder in churches today and the questionable TV'evangelism'.

Ephesians 3:1-9 "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, if you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; ..."

The gospel given to the Apostle Paul from the ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ: I Corinthians 15:1-4 "Moreoever, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel ... for I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures;"

II Corinthians 5:14-19 tells us that Christ died for all (Jew and Gentile) reconciling the world unto Himself. Ephesians 4:32 and Colossians 2:13 both tell us that Christ hath forgiven (past tense) our sin (past, present, future). This says to me it is the finished work of the cross of Christ, His blood (Colossians 1:14) - complete. Our only requirement is believing by faith - Ephesians 2:8. Belief (faith) - nothing else ... not water baptism, not tithing, not keeping the Sabbath - these are works under the law to Israel. We are now under grace - faith plus nothing. Romans 3:21-26

Finally to answer your question - suicide is not an unforgiveable sin. The only sin not covered by the forgiveness we have in Christ Jesus: unbelief. Romans 4:5 and 4:20. My authority is the word of God. I hope this helps your understanding and brings comfort.
07/20/2008 10:04:01 AM · #30
Originally posted by Shadowfax23:

Do not consider myself religious but I am a Believer - what I believe: II Timothy 2:15 states "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." We first need to understand the present dispensation we live and distinguish 'the gospel of the grace of God' revealed to the Apostle Paul from 'the gospel of the kingdom' based on Jesus' earthly ministry under the law to the nation of Israel. The earthly kingdom and the prophetic belong to Israel alone - not to Gentiles. Mixing this up has caused much of the confusion/disorder in churches today and the questionable TV'evangelism'.

Ephesians 3:1-9 "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, if you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; ..."

The gospel given to the Apostle Paul from the ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ: I Corinthians 15:1-4 "Moreoever, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel ... for I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures;"

II Corinthians 5:14-19 tells us that Christ died for all (Jew and Gentile) reconciling the world unto Himself. Ephesians 4:32 and Colossians 2:13 both tell us that Christ hath forgiven (past tense) our sin (past, present, future). This says to me it is the finished work of the cross of Christ, His blood (Colossians 1:14) - complete. Our only requirement is believing by faith - Ephesians 2:8. Belief (faith) - nothing else ... not water baptism, not tithing, not keeping the Sabbath - these are works under the law to Israel. We are now under grace - faith plus nothing. Romans 3:21-26

Finally to answer your question - suicide is not an unforgiveable sin. The only sin not covered by the forgiveness we have in Christ Jesus: unbelief. Romans 4:5 and 4:20. My authority is the word of God. I hope this helps your understanding and brings comfort.


not religious? You sound pretty religious. As a Catholic, and if I cared as much, I would beg to differ with the evengelical protestant point of view that faith is the only answer. How could people think that you can booze, kill, hate others, and all other manner of unspeakable acts- but its ok if you believe in Jesus.

Thats absurd; Newsflash- the more you act like Jesus- the more you "believe" in Jesus. The road to hell is proverbially paved with good intentions. Actions are the way heaven, not words.(if there is a heaven)

remember that old "John 3:16" or the like, where is says nobody gets to heaven through me- well, God really didn't mean "be a horrible person, its ok if you sin, just say you believe "- "through me" means by being like me- remember the old "all those other commandments are great but love thy neighbor is the most important speech?

Most of our problems are form trying to get people to "believe" and threatiening them with hell if they don't believe. The more Christ like thing would be to love unconditionally and help others.
07/20/2008 10:32:03 AM · #31
Originally posted by heavyj:

For those who believe in God (Any religion), can I get your opinion on the following:

A man is diagnosed with terminal cancer and only finds out in the last month of his natural life. He could choose to stay home and die peacefully or go to a hospital and taken cared of perhaps more comfortably and possibly longer.

However, he chooses a different route. He decides in his final days, in days where he realizes that something 'feels' wrong, to go skydiving, and instead of opening his shoot, he just looks up at the sky and heavens, perhaps says a prayer, and goes out with a smile on his face. Would this be a sin. While technically suicide, do you think that God would look at it that way, or would He say 'You left this world with an open mind and clean conscience, and you will entire my Kingdom the same way.' or something similar? Or do you think he would be damned for doing what he did?


I hardly feel qualified to give counsel to the terminally ill. However, each person must chose their own path. I would not advocate for one over the other. Historically, the body has been viewed by believers of the Christian faith as the Lord's Temple. To destroy the body, would be to destroy a temple of God. At times the belief has been used to justify the prohibition of cremation. Many modern clergy, and I know a fair number of them, have come to see the act of suicide as that of an unwell person/mind that can just stand no more (terminal illness or not). So now they belive that God understands and forgives.

All I know, is that I would not want to face such a choice. If it is you, or someone close to you that is facing such a choice, then you have my sincerest sympathy. Personally, I would probably go for dying at home. Have been there at the last moments of several people, those who chose to go at home seem to pass the easiest. If the choice is skydiving, I can say it won't hurt. I was hit by a truck, saw it coming, and did not feel a thing until I woke up.
07/20/2008 10:51:01 AM · #32
Originally posted by blindjustice:



not religious? You sound pretty religious. As a Catholic, and if I cared as much, I would beg to differ with the evengelical protestant point of view that faith is the only answer. How could people think that you can booze, kill, hate others, and all other manner of unspeakable acts- but its ok if you believe in Jesus.



There were three crosses at the crucifiction, one sinner went to Heaven with Jesus, as he accepted Jesus as his savior on the Cross. Jesus took him with him to heaven, the other didn't believe, his choice, and he is eternally away from God. So us Christian believer (sinners!) will be in Heaven with Christ, because we have accepted Jesus as our personal Savior.

Eternity is a long time to be wrong!

Message edited by author 2008-07-20 10:51:55.
07/20/2008 11:06:00 AM · #33
Originally posted by vtruan:

Eternity is a long time to be wrong!

Just can't resist: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg
07/20/2008 11:07:23 AM · #34
blindjustice - religion is man-made trying to reach up/know God - Christianity is based on God reaching down to man and our response to Him - a relationship not based on ritual/law. The religious Jews were the ones blasted by Jesus. Not sure where you get people can 'booze, kill, hate ... but it's ok if you believe in Jesus - it is not ok. My belief is based on scripture so the bottom line is whether we believe the Bible is the word of God. The unconditional love you mentioned was demonstrated by Christ Jesus for us - this is the gospel of grace not based on how 'good we are or what we do'. Nobody would measure up if it was. God made a way for fallen/sinful mankind. All we have to do is believe - it is that simple. Does not mean we will walk this life out perfectly. We will sin, we will fail but all sin was taken care of at the cross. This does not give us a license to sin but to respond to Christ Jesus in gratitude.

It is your choice whether to believe or not. That is all I am saying - this is not a threat. The human race was given a precious gift. It is all in the Book we are instructed to study to show ourselves approved unto God.

By the way - I was raised Catholic.

07/20/2008 11:34:12 AM · #35
Originally posted by blindjustice:

Everyone is so judgemental.

From a societal frame of reference, going into a hospital or hospice would certainly cost more than the clean up from a "fall."

Here comes a guy who doesn't want to be a burden on anybody and chooses to end it- On his terms. He doesn't waste all his families money on expensive experimental treatment- he doesn't walk out into traffic-(which is far less innocent than skydiving to death- because you know you are ruining the life of the person that hits you)-
and theres actually people who would say he won't have eternal life? Some Catholic who spoke to God and God said "suicide is wrong- die a horrible miserable death or go to hell... be a man for Christ's sake."

Or some catholic or born again who would become a soldier and kill and figure god says its ok if I'm protecting america? News flash- killing is always wrong. No turning back- no saying "I believe" on your death bed and your saved. OR maybe its not wrong, and their is nothing to be saved from.

There are tons of people who die in equally terrible ways that are really just prolonged suicide. Severe alcoholics. Drug Addicts. Smokers even. How about people that ride motorcyles without helmets? (Who takes care of them when they carash and God-forbid DON'T die? You and me pay for their careless behavior.) Some of these activities are so reckless- and some have been warned- stop or you'll die- as to make them practically suicide.

I'm admittedly as agnostic as they come. But most religious rules were made up to keep people in line in societies when there were no police forces; the ten commandments are often just rules how to be a good neighbor and keep neighborhood bloodshed to a minimum.

The choice of what to do when you have terminal cancer is really up to the individual- I hope I don't have to make this choice- or anyone I know for that matter. I'd really hate to think that someone would suffer and put everybody around them in a total miserable hell just because they thought they'd be damned if they made a choice. I would certainly not want to see anyone make that choice based upon what their mega-church tells them to do....


Wow. If you are agnostic...why did you feel the need to come and bash religion in a forum thread titled 'A RELIGIOUS QUESTION'?

I don't barge myself into threads on other sites that are dealing with ATHEISM, AGNOSTICISM...etc. Why do you feel the need to barge in and 'force' YOUR judgemental beliefs on those of us that do believe?

Just wondering.

I mean. I don't believe in unicorns. But I don't go around berating anyone that does. i dont stop small children in the walkways of wal mart and tell them...'you know, unicorns don't really exist right?...and santa is a figment of your imagination fed and kept alive by corporate america'.

NO. I just keep my mouth shut. Why? Because I don't believe. But that doesn't make it my job to tell those that do...that they are wrong.

However, if a fellow christian asks a religious question. I will try to answer to the best of my ability and my own faith. I won't tell them they are wrong...(we can agree to disagree) but I also will not cave in and fail to provide my own point.

I would really like an answer. Why would you come to berate the religious in a thread that is clearly titled for those of us that believe?
07/20/2008 11:34:41 AM · #36
Clarification from my previous post - was raised Catholic long ago but presently attend a small church where scripture is taught - rightly divided.
07/20/2008 11:36:24 AM · #37
Originally posted by Sam94720:

Some people here write something along the lines of "In my opinion, God will do [this and that]." while others provide a contradicting view "In my opinion, God will do [something else]".

Do you think that your treatment after death depends on your opinion? Everyone gets what they expect? That would be nice, but it's probably not the case.

This means that at most one of those providing their "opinion" can be correct. How could we figure out which one (if any) it is?


No. But only a pompous ass...would say..'THIS IS HOW IT WILL GO DOWN in X event!'

perhaps, most people are just a little more humble than we give them credit for and realize that their opinion really is just THEIR OPINION?
07/20/2008 11:40:03 AM · #38
Originally posted by blindjustice:



Thats absurd; Newsflash- the more you act like Jesus- the more you "believe" in Jesus. The road to hell is proverbially paved with good intentions. Actions are the way heaven, not words.(if there is a heaven)


CORRECT.

"Faith without works is dead, being alone."

Like I said earlier. In my opinion, a person that is saved would not take this route because their faith would steer them into the deeds (works) of a servant of God. They would exhibit fruits of the spirit...and none of those fruits are self-murder.
07/20/2008 11:40:06 AM · #39
Originally posted by egamble:

I would really like an answer. Why would you come to berate the religious in a thread that is clearly titled for those of us that believe?


Nah, you want a fight.
07/20/2008 11:44:19 AM · #40
Originally posted by raish:

Originally posted by egamble:

I would really like an answer. Why would you come to berate the religious in a thread that is clearly titled for those of us that believe?


Nah, you want a fight.


No. I don't. You will not see me talking about religion in any other posts.

You most assuredly will not see me bring up religion, probably even my opinion, in threads about agnostics or atheists.

I wan't to know why he decide to warm up the flame thrower and jump into this thread with the full intention of not only taking aim at Christianity, but Islam and Karma based religions as well.

Message edited by author 2008-07-20 11:44:34.
07/20/2008 11:57:11 AM · #41
Originally posted by blindjustice:

...The choice of what to do when you have terminal cancer is really up to the individual- I hope I don't have to make this choice- or anyone I know for that matter. I'd really hate to think that someone would suffer and put everybody around them in a total miserable hell just because they thought they'd be damned if they made a choice...


Yes, this choice is up to the individual. Making one can be impulsive (unconsidered), it can be motivated by fear and it can be seized as an opportunity to come to terms with the paradoxical nature of experience (a considered, ethical act). Not acting at all, because one felt he'd be damned, as you say,, whatever he'd do, is, in my view, the most pitiful way to go. in this case, nothing is realized but the annihilation of individuality.

When churches (organized religion) get too interested in secular power, it does, of course, serve their interest to oppress individuality. To be subjected to various forms of oppression is one thing, but to go down without, at least, tackling the issue in the face of one's own death, is, I feel, the most miserable choice.

To condense my views on the subject into a single sentence: what is important is not whatever you or I think is right but that we struggle with it.

Message edited by author 2008-07-20 12:03:21.
07/20/2008 03:15:23 PM · #42


Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by blindjustice:

Everyone is so judgemental.

From a societal frame of reference, going into a hospital or hospice would certainly cost more than the clean up from a "fall."

Here comes a guy who doesn't want to be a burden on anybody and chooses to end it- On his terms. He doesn't waste all his families money on expensive experimental treatment- he doesn't walk out into traffic-(which is far less innocent than skydiving to death- because you know you are ruining the life of the person that hits you)-
and theres actually people who would say he won't have eternal life? Some Catholic who spoke to God and God said "suicide is wrong- die a horrible miserable death or go to hell... be a man for Christ's sake."

Or some catholic or born again who would become a soldier and kill and figure god says its ok if I'm protecting america? News flash- killing is always wrong. No turning back- no saying "I believe" on your death bed and your saved. OR maybe its not wrong, and their is nothing to be saved from.

There are tons of people who die in equally terrible ways that are really just prolonged suicide. Severe alcoholics. Drug Addicts. Smokers even. How about people that ride motorcyles without helmets? (Who takes care of them when they carash and God-forbid DON'T die? You and me pay for their careless behavior.) Some of these activities are so reckless- and some have been warned- stop or you'll die- as to make them practically suicide.

I'm admittedly as agnostic as they come. But most religious rules were made up to keep people in line in societies when there were no police forces; the ten commandments are often just rules how to be a good neighbor and keep neighborhood bloodshed to a minimum.

The choice of what to do when you have terminal cancer is really up to the individual- I hope I don't have to make this choice- or anyone I know for that matter. I'd really hate to think that someone would suffer and put everybody around them in a total miserable hell just because they thought they'd be damned if they made a choice. I would certainly not want to see anyone make that choice based upon what their mega-church tells them to do....


Wow. If you are agnostic...why did you feel the need to come and bash religion in a forum thread titled 'A RELIGIOUS QUESTION'?

I don't barge myself into threads on other sites that are dealing with ATHEISM, AGNOSTICISM...etc. Why do you feel the need to barge in and 'force' YOUR judgemental beliefs on those of us that do believe?

Just wondering.

I mean. I don't believe in unicorns. But I don't go around berating anyone that does. i dont stop small children in the walkways of wal mart and tell them...'you know, unicorns don't really exist right?...and santa is a figment of your imagination fed and kept alive by corporate america'.

NO. I just keep my mouth shut. Why? Because I don't believe. But that doesn't make it my job to tell those that do...that they are wrong.

However, if a fellow christian asks a religious question. I will try to answer to the best of my ability and my own faith. I won't tell them they are wrong...(we can agree to disagree) but I also will not cave in and fail to provide my own point.

I would really like an answer. Why would you come to berate the religious in a thread that is clearly titled for those of us that believe?


Part of the question, as put much better by Zeuszen, is, from what religious perspective, if any, and how so, to come to an answer? I was simply trying to say, that it doesn't have to be one religious perspective. And, that it is my belief that, after considerable thought, if I'm riddled with cancer, I would want the choice to go out the way I want to, without people judging me or telling me its some xdegree sin.

I not-so-articulately tried to explain the opinion that religion has been used to oppress people- so they can live miserable lives while dreaming of some "afterlife." Real religion wouldn't do that. Not asking or posing questions won't stop them from popping up.
07/20/2008 04:57:46 PM · #43
Originally posted by Sam94720:

Some people here write something along the lines of "In my opinion, God will do [this and that]." while others provide a contradicting view "In my opinion, God will do [something else]".

Do you think that your treatment after death depends on your opinion? Everyone gets what they expect? That would be nice, but it's probably not the case.

This means that at most one of those providing their "opinion" can be correct. How could we figure out which one (if any) it is?


No, I do not believe it depends on "my opinion."

The OP asked a fairly general question and wanted an answer based on a religious perspective.

I gave him my opinion. If he wants to know the justification or basis of my opinion, he can PM me and I will give it to him.

Had he asked "what would happen if and WHY?" I would have answered with what I think is the why.

I may be wrong. I obviously don't think so, otherwise I would change my opinion. :P

As far as this interjection into the thread, it sounds very antagonistic and quarrelsome. I don't know if you meant it that way or not, but it (and subsequent discussions) really don't have anything to do with the OP's question.

_-------

As far as asking a "religious" question and getting a "Christian-based" answer. Ummmm, that is the really the only perspective I can offer. If you wish, I will research it and try to find out what other religions say, though I suspect the answers will be similar -- yes, you will be punished, or no, you want.

The only way to know for sure is to commit suicide and come back and tell everybody, but that isn't quite possible, now is it? So, all we can offer is opinion and speculation.
07/20/2008 06:35:27 PM · #44
Originally posted by cloudsme:

The path to heaven is clear from the bible.


Strange that there are so many different answers if this is true.
07/20/2008 08:01:09 PM · #45
Originally posted by blindjustice:

Thats absurd; Newsflash- the more you act like Jesus- the more you "believe" in Jesus. The road to hell is proverbially paved with good intentions. Actions are the way heaven, not words.(if there is a heaven)


There is no bible verse to back this one up. If perfection was the way to heaven, we would all fail. Our actions, no matter how good, will not get us to heaven. (Romans 3:20-26) Our faith saves us, and our actions are the fruit of our faith. Just google "Faith vs works" and you'll get plenty of sermons on the subject, all saying basically the same thing.

Originally posted by blindjustice:

remember that old "John 3:16" or the like, where is says nobody gets to heaven through me- well, God really didn't mean "be a horrible person, its ok if you sin, just say you believe"


Very true. God didn't mean that at all. True faith means we try to the right thing, and walk away from sin. But even so, if our faith is true, we won't be judged by our failures, only by not trying.

Originally posted by blindjustice:

"through me" means by being like me- remember the old "all those other commandments are great but love thy neighbor is the most important speech?"


Yes, God is not a human judge who needs to look at the outer actions, and judge us on an infinitely detailed set of external laws governing every little piece of human existence, defining in legalistic terms what is sin and what is not. God can look straight to the heart and know us.

Originally posted by blindjustice:

"Most of our problems are from trying to get people to "believe" and threatiening them with hell if they don't believe. The more Christ like thing would be to love unconditionally and help others.


Yes, it is a very human thing to look at others and to say whether or not others are doing the right thing or the wrong thing. Only too often, "the church" also gets caught up in this behaviour. The pharisees of Jesus time often tried to trick Jesus with these legalistic hypotheticals, but Jesus would never enter into this. Asking for a right or wrong 'ruling' on an action is always wrong. Read Matthew 22:15-46, and you'll see how Jesus avoided being caught up in these humanistic legalistic arguments, but instead refocused the issue back to God.

It makes a nice controversial thread though, because everyone one can give a different opinion, and back it up with a nice argument, then someone else can always argue the other side from a different viewpoint. Are we all having fun? Just don't expect God to listen to any of these legalistic arguments, or to join in the argment. He knows the man's heart. And he knows mine. And he knows yours.
07/20/2008 08:09:26 PM · #46
Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by cloudsme:

The path to heaven is clear from the bible.


Strange that there are so many different answers if this is true.


Not strange, a lot of people don't read the bible. I think a lot of people who don't read the bible feel that if they are "good" people they will go to heaven. They define "good" on their own moral terms. So, most non readers feel they are going to heaven on their own terms.
07/20/2008 08:18:48 PM · #47
Originally posted by cloudsme:

I think a lot of people who don't read the bible feel that if they are "good" people they will go to heaven. They define "good" on their own moral terms. So, most non readers feel they are going to heaven on their own terms.


Nicely said! :)
07/20/2008 09:02:44 PM · #48
Originally posted by surfdabbler:

Originally posted by blindjustice:

Thats absurd; Newsflash- the more you act like Jesus- the more you "believe" in Jesus. The road to hell is proverbially paved with good intentions. Actions are the way heaven, not words.(if there is a heaven)


There is no bible verse to back this one up. If perfection was the way to heaven, we would all fail. Our actions, no matter how good, will not get us to heaven. (Romans 3:20-26) Our faith saves us, and our actions are the fruit of our faith. Just google "Faith vs works" and you'll get plenty of sermons on the subject, all saying basically the same thing.

Originally posted by blindjustice:

remember that old "John 3:16" or the like, where is says nobody gets to heaven through me- well, God really didn't mean "be a horrible person, its ok if you sin, just say you believe"


Very true. God didn't mean that at all. True faith means we try to the right thing, and walk away from sin. But even so, if our faith is true, we won't be judged by our failures, only by not trying.

Originally posted by blindjustice:

"through me" means by being like me- remember the old "all those other commandments are great but love thy neighbor is the most important speech?"


Yes, God is not a human judge who needs to look at the outer actions, and judge us on an infinitely detailed set of external laws governing every little piece of human existence, defining in legalistic terms what is sin and what is not. God can look straight to the heart and know us.

Originally posted by blindjustice:

"Most of our problems are from trying to get people to "believe" and threatiening them with hell if they don't believe. The more Christ like thing would be to love unconditionally and help others.


Yes, it is a very human thing to look at others and to say whether or not others are doing the right thing or the wrong thing. Only too often, "the church" also gets caught up in this behaviour. The pharisees of Jesus time often tried to trick Jesus with these legalistic hypotheticals, but Jesus would never enter into this. Asking for a right or wrong 'ruling' on an action is always wrong. Read Matthew 22:15-46, and you'll see how Jesus avoided being caught up in these humanistic legalistic arguments, but instead refocused the issue back to God.

It makes a nice controversial thread though, because everyone one can give a different opinion, and back it up with a nice argument, then someone else can always argue the other side from a different viewpoint. Are we all having fun? Just don't expect God to listen to any of these legalistic arguments, or to join in the argment. He knows the man's heart. And he knows mine. And he knows yours.


I like the cut of your jib: very methodical. even stroked. I like how you take my sometimes preposterous thoughts, and have the "authority" somehow to say whether God thought so or not.

You also seem to say that "works" is not in the bible, as if its a preposterous thought to think (faith + works) could be the real way, rather than (faith alone.) I'll tell you what is really not anywhere in the bible, and thats the ludicrous idea of say, "the rapture"- but I guess thats a topic for another thread, or late night tv infomercial sermon... sorry once again for rustling feathers with a discussion.

Message edited by author 2008-07-20 21:03:51.
07/20/2008 09:52:42 PM · #49
Originally posted by blindjustice:

"You also seem to say that "works" is not in the bible, as if its a preposterous thought to think (faith + works) could be the real way, rather than (faith alone.)


Well, yes, this is better clarifed. Your original statement of "Actions are the way to heaven" is what I was referring to, that there is no bible verse to back that one up. But yes, as it says in James 2:20, "faith without works is dead". What James is saying is that faith doesn't mean we can rely on our salvation and use that as a get out of jail free card, allowing us to do whatever we like. We cannot keep our faith and salvation securely locked up in our hearts, and happily go on living a sinful life without any connection to our faith.

True faith results in actions - but no matter how hard we work on our actions, our actions will be flawed. Every one of us will sin, and every one of our actions will fall short. We cannot judge ourselves (or others) on human terms by actions. We are saved by faith, and our actions are evidence of our faith. I believe God will judge us to the core, not by our surface.
07/20/2008 11:09:29 PM · #50
Originally posted by karmat:

In my OPINION (<--------capitalized word is very important here), I THINK, based on my Christian views, that if he had accepted Christ as his savior, then, yes, he would be shown mercy and go to Heaven.


but what if the undertaker cursed this man to go to hell? :p
(imagine the mess he'd be leaving behind!)
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