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07/21/2008 12:25:28 AM · #51
Originally posted by heavyj:

For those who believe in God (Any religion), can I get your opinion on the following:

A man is diagnosed with terminal cancer and only finds out in the last month of his natural life. He could choose to stay home and die peacefully or go to a hospital and taken cared of perhaps more comfortably and possibly longer.

However, he chooses a different route. He decides in his final days, in days where he realizes that something \'feels\' wrong, to go skydiving, and instead of opening his shoot, he just looks up at the sky and heavens, perhaps says a prayer, and goes out with a smile on his face. Would this be a sin. While technically suicide, do you think that God would look at it that way, or would He say \'You left this world with an open mind and clean conscience, and you will entire my Kingdom the same way.\' or something similar? Or do you think he would be damned for doing what he did?


This answer is coming from a Christian perspective and assuming the man in question also identifies with the Christian faith. If the man has faith in God and believes that Jesus was his Son who died as a sacrifice for all of his sins and rose again conquering death... If he had a personal relationship with God through Jesus and his Holy Spirit that indwelled him... If that person who had these beliefs and had that personal relationship was totally convinced in his heart (to the point of going out with a smile on his face) that not opening that parachute was not a sin then it wasn\'t or at least it would not be imputed to him as sin. That being said I do not believe that this would be the case if he did have faith and lived by the spirit. He would not want to take his own life but would wait on the mercy of God. If God wanted him to die any sooner then God would have made sure to arrange circumstances whereby the chute wouldn\'t open or would fail or a bus would hit him or maybe he would find himself in a circumstance where he could give his life so another could continue living. People of true Christian faith would not look for the easy way out. Waiting on the Lord is key attribute of a true Christian.

As far as the whole saving is by faith alone/faith and works/works alone discussion the quote from the Bible which say faith without works is dead is saying that the person who has no works could not possibly have faith... their faith is of no account because it is faith in word only. Anyone who has a real faith in Jesus and God will have works to show because of their faith and the Holy Spirit which indwells them will guide them in taking action. God has a plan for the believers life and that plan does not include doing nothing. Every Christian is part of the body of Christ and each of us has a function in that body. These works are done out of love for God and not because we are earning brownie points to get into heaven with. As a Christian the whole idea of being able to conjure up faith is a ridiculous notion. You can\'t read the Bible enough.. attend enough prayer meetings.. do good deeds.. give money to the church.. or anything else that will increase your faith one iota. Faith also is a gift from God given freely to those who ask for it who seek to know God and to do his will. Salvation is by grace unto those who believe. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness for they shall be filled.
07/21/2008 01:18:08 AM · #52
Originally posted by dponlyme:



If that person who had these beliefs and had that personal relationship was totally convinced in his heart (to the point of going out with a smile on his face) that not opening that parachute was not a sin then it wasn\'t or at least it would not be imputed to him as sin.


so...If....just if...I have a relationship with jesus. But for some reason...the act of killing babies puts a smile on my face.....and I happen to get killed during my infant murdering spree....those sins 'dont count' because I didn't believe they were a sin?

Is that what you are saying? Or did I misunderstand?

(If God rules the universe by laws, our ignorance of those laws do not allow us to circumvent those laws)
07/21/2008 01:19:44 AM · #53
Originally posted by dponlyme:

[

People of true Christian faith would not look for the easy way out.


That's what I used to say until I found myself deep in depression and about to commit suicide.

Sorry, just because you are a Christian does not make you automatically immune to such things, and saying such things doesn't help anyone in that position. In fact, it can make it a lot worse.

Would be nice, though, if it were true.
07/21/2008 04:04:09 AM · #54
Originally posted by cloudsme:

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by cloudsme:

The path to heaven is clear from the bible.


Strange that there are so many different answers if this is true.


Not strange, a lot of people don't read the bible. I think a lot of people who don't read the bible feel that if they are "good" people they will go to heaven. They define "good" on their own moral terms. So, most non readers feel they are going to heaven on their own terms.


I don't think that the answer is so clear. The original question prompts a discussion that is age old - it touches on themes that prompted the schism of the church between Catholicism and Protestantism (such as the value of good works, and the strengths and weaknesses of individual readings of the Bible) and philosophical/theological hotbeds such the consequences of a deathbed conversions for a murderer. All interesting stuff.

I don't think that the OP shoud expect clear religious guidance on this theme from such a diverse group of people. I would expect some responses from people who "know" the answer and proselytize accordingly, but the reality is that these are matters for interpretation and interesting debate.
07/21/2008 07:54:25 AM · #55
Originally posted by Sam94720:

Some people here write something along the lines of "In my opinion, God will do [this and that]." while others provide a contradicting view "In my opinion, God will do [something else]".

Do you think that your treatment after death depends on your opinion? Everyone gets what they expect? That would be nice, but it's probably not the case.

This means that at most one of those providing their "opinion" can be correct. How could we figure out which one (if any) it is?


The last bit is not quite true - some of the opinions stated line up quite well with each other. (I think karmat's and my answers were pretty similar. For that matter, on the original question as stated egamble and I agreed, I think - our point of disagreement was on whether someone who was a Christian would ever consider suicide, which is a related but separate question.)

No, I don't believe that the correct answer depends on my opinion - or anyone else's (or a majority vote!) - only God's. I attempted to give an answer based on what I understand about God and what he said in the Bible. It seems fair to assume that the others answering the question from a Christian perspective also did (of course, those from other faiths wouldn't be using the Bible as a reference point).

Does the fact that there are some disagreements automatically mean that we must all be wrong (or, by implication, that Christianity is by necessity false)? No, it simply means that none of us have complete understanding. Over time, we learn more, our understanding increases - there are things I know now that I didn't know ten years ago, and other things that I "knew" ten years ago that I'm less sure about now or have changed my opinion on, simply because I have learned, thought, read, talked and listened. The same will happen over the next ten years and the ten years after that, because I am still continuing to learn. If someone asks a question about, say, economics (or grammar or, dare I say it, photography), do we write off all economics (or grammar or photography) as a sham because there is disagreement, or if a leading economist/writer/photographer changes her opinion on something?

Fortunately, getting into heaven doesn't depend on scoring 100% on a theology exam.
07/21/2008 08:03:53 AM · #56
Originally posted by karmat:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

[

People of true Christian faith would not look for the easy way out.


That's what I used to say until I found myself deep in depression and about to commit suicide.

Sorry, just because you are a Christian does not make you automatically immune to such things, and saying such things doesn't help anyone in that position. In fact, it can make it a lot worse.

Would be nice, though, if it were true.


Life is not as easy as the footsteps poem. We can't play god, but we could make a decent assumption that God might forgive mental illness, etc. Any thing that takes way your free will choice. Who knows.
07/21/2008 10:09:27 AM · #57
The real question for me is: Does knowing that your end is near alter the way you live your life? Why? The guy could believe that he's got a month and walking out of the Dr.'s office, step out in front of a bus/get in a fatal car accident/cardiac arrest/or whatever. For that matter, any of us could go in a similar, immediate manner. Why do people squander their days, as if there are an infinite number of tomorrows for them? One of my friends is a doctor and she talks about her patients who say, "If I'm going to die...". She has to remind them that death is not an "If" it's a "When".

07/21/2008 10:38:42 AM · #58
Originally posted by paddles:

Fortunately, getting into heaven doesn't depend on scoring 100% on a theology exam.


At least that you hope that is not the case - as you say, this is only your opinion.

Originally posted by paddles:

No, I don't believe that the correct answer depends on my opinion - or anyone else's (or a majority vote!) - only God's.

07/21/2008 11:28:11 AM · #59
In my opinion, suicide is suicide.
Just because the doctor has given him a month to live, it doesn't necessarily mean he will live a month. People have been known to live many many years after they were given only a few weeks or months to live. Your planned time of death is not and cannot be known by any human being.
07/21/2008 12:11:59 PM · #60
Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by dponlyme:



If that person who had these beliefs and had that personal relationship was totally convinced in his heart (to the point of going out with a smile on his face) that not opening that parachute was not a sin then it wasn\'t or at least it would not be imputed to him as sin.


so...If....just if...I have a relationship with jesus. But for some reason...the act of killing babies puts a smile on my face.....and I happen to get killed during my infant murdering spree....those sins 'dont count' because I didn't believe they were a sin?

Is that what you are saying? Or did I misunderstand?

(If God rules the universe by laws, our ignorance of those laws do not allow us to circumvent those laws)


If killing babies puts a smile on your face you definitely have a relationship with Jesus... you are his enemy. God judges a man's heart and if one is fully convinced in his heart that what he is doing is consistent with God's will and is not sinful then it will not be imputed to him as sin. However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.
07/21/2008 12:24:06 PM · #61
Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by dponlyme:



If that person who had these beliefs and had that personal relationship was totally convinced in his heart (to the point of going out with a smile on his face) that not opening that parachute was not a sin then it wasn\'t or at least it would not be imputed to him as sin.


so...If....just if...I have a relationship with jesus. But for some reason...the act of killing babies puts a smile on my face.....and I happen to get killed during my infant murdering spree....those sins 'dont count' because I didn't believe they were a sin?

Is that what you are saying? Or did I misunderstand?

(If God rules the universe by laws, our ignorance of those laws do not allow us to circumvent those laws)


If killing babies puts a smile on your face you definitely have a relationship with Jesus... you are his enemy. God judges a man's heart and if one is fully convinced in his heart that what he is doing is consistent with God's will and is not sinful then it will not be imputed to him as sin. However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


What makes something utterly sinful then? Is it something that's condemned by the Pope? by Jerry Falwell? James Dobson? Fred Phelps?

Sounds pretty arbitrary to me.

07/21/2008 12:30:19 PM · #62
Originally posted by karmat:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

[

People of true Christian faith would not look for the easy way out.


That's what I used to say until I found myself deep in depression and about to commit suicide.

Sorry, just because you are a Christian does not make you automatically immune to such things, and saying such things doesn't help anyone in that position. In fact, it can make it a lot worse.

Would be nice, though, if it were true.


You misunderstand, the question posed was as it related to someone who was not in despair about his demise coming but someone who simply wished to avoid a protracted period of suffering... he was going out with a smile on his face remember. If he was at peace with himself and God and everything was cool as it is described then I do not think a true Christian would look for the easy way out. It is certainly conceivable but not probable in my opinion.

Depression is not the person looking for an easy way out. It most likely is the only way out that they can see. People don't want to die for no reason. Most times it's not death that they seek so much as relief from the mental/emotional pain that they are experiencing. I would submit however that if you are in a state where you are that depressed then you are not spiritually healthy anymore than you are mentally healthy.
07/21/2008 01:11:22 PM · #63
Originally posted by dponlyme:

However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


I don't think that you can have your cake ("sinfulness is a matter of conscience") and eat it ("some sins are absolute"). For example, there are a number of instances in the bible where god condones and encourages murder, and at least one where being willing to execute a child in the name of god is rewarded.

Nor does your bible give you the latitude to come up with this kind of assessment in god's name:

Oh, how great are Godís riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
For who can know the Lordís thoughts? Who knows enough to give him advice?
[Romans 11:33-34]
07/21/2008 02:21:35 PM · #64
Originally posted by karmat:

In my OPINION (<--------capitalized word is very important here), I THINK, based on my Christian views, that if he had accepted Christ as his savior, then, yes, he would be shown mercy and go to Heaven.


I feel similarly...

I'll also reference the story of Samson, who was given strength to bring down the pillars. And thus end his own life as well. While I believe the man may have taken an opportunity for God to divinely and miraculously heal him, strengthening both his and others faith. I do not believe suicide precludes entrance into heaven, especially as murder does not preclude such entrance.

Some will harp on the need to confess every sin. Well, in that case, I doubt anyone will go to heaven. I am sure even the best of us have failed to recognize a sin. And the odds of hitting the confessional just before death is fairly unlikely for most of us. I believe a lot more of the judgment is focused on one's heart?

Now, frankly, if I were the man...I wouldn't fail to pull the cord. But hey, I might go hang gliding, cliff jumping, extreme skiing. Do all those things that I might not because they are risky. Knowing that if I was one of the rare unfortunates who had an accident - I'd only lose a month or so.

***

Can anyone know the fullness of God's wisdom or knowledge. No...

Ironically, I'll also quote on that same man whom Matthew refers who acted in obedience in regards to the matter of his son. Who petitioned the Lord on sparing the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah if there be 50, 45, 30, 20 and even 10 righteous men. And the Lord said he'd spare the city for even 10. So while we may not be able to know God's mind or give advice - it's does hurt to try sometimes. ;)

07/21/2008 03:07:09 PM · #65
Originally posted by theSaj:

Originally posted by karmat:

In my OPINION (<--------capitalized word is very important here), I THINK, based on my Christian views, that if he had accepted Christ as his savior, then, yes, he would be shown mercy and go to Heaven.


I feel similarly...

I'll also reference the story of Samson, who was given strength to bring down the pillars. And thus end his own life as well. While I believe the man may have taken an opportunity for God to divinely and miraculously heal him, strengthening both his and others faith. I do not believe suicide precludes entrance into heaven, especially as murder does not preclude such entrance.

Some will harp on the need to confess every sin. Well, in that case, I doubt anyone will go to heaven. I am sure even the best of us have failed to recognize a sin. And the odds of hitting the confessional just before death is fairly unlikely for most of us. I believe a lot more of the judgment is focused on one's heart?

Now, frankly, if I were the man...I wouldn't fail to pull the cord. But hey, I might go hang gliding, cliff jumping, extreme skiing. Do all those things that I might not because they are risky. Knowing that if I was one of the rare unfortunates who had an accident - I'd only lose a month or so.

***

Can anyone know the fullness of God's wisdom or knowledge. No...

Ironically, I'll also quote on that same man whom Matthew refers who acted in obedience in regards to the matter of his son. Who petitioned the Lord on sparing the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah if there be 50, 45, 30, 20 and even 10 righteous men. And the Lord said he'd spare the city for even 10. So while we may not be able to know God's mind or give advice - it's does hurt to try sometimes. ;)


Literal bible talk scares me. I don't believe, it is not my opinion, and It should not be spoken of in Modern times that God "destroyed cities" for their moral terribleness.

For one reason, then you have goofsballs going around and saying that every natural disaster is God's punishment for Homosexuality or this or the other thing. And also, if that Old Testament wrath was still around, how do you explain the continued existence of Camden, New Jersey?(no offense to anyone who lives there...I'm joking- I could have used any miserably depressing city)
07/21/2008 03:53:24 PM · #66
Originally posted by paddles:

Fortunately, getting into heaven doesn't depend on scoring 100% on a theology exam


I am sorry, you only scored a 99. You will now be escorted to the exit of ETERNAL HELLFIRE AND DAMNATION!!

Yeah, that would suck. Thank God for mercy.
07/21/2008 03:55:32 PM · #67
Originally posted by dponlyme:

God judges a man's heart and if one is fully convinced in his heart that what he is doing is consistent with God's will and is not sinful then it will not be imputed to him as sin. However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


How is killing infants UTTERLY sinful? God did it...to the egyptian firstborn....

I am a Christian..but I am having a really hard time seeing where you are coming from.
07/21/2008 03:56:49 PM · #68
Originally posted by dponlyme:



If killing babies puts a smile on your face you definitely have a relationship with Jesus... you are his enemy. God judges a man's heart and if one is fully convinced in his heart that what he is doing is consistent with God's will and is not sinful then it will not be imputed to him as sin. However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


also. What if kiling infants lets me sleep better at night? (i am convinced this activity is both moral and Godly?)
07/21/2008 04:00:19 PM · #69
Originally posted by blindjustice:



For one reason, then you have goofsballs going around and saying that every natural disaster is God's punishment for Homosexuality or this or the other thing. And also, if that Old Testament wrath was still around, how do you explain the continued existence of Camden, New Jersey?(no offense to anyone who lives there...I'm joking- I could have used any miserably depressing city)


Those people do not know what they are talking about. The OT never mentions homosexuality as the PRIMARY reason for the destruction of S & G. They were destroyed for their OVERALL sinfulness. Not one specific sin....IN MY OPINION! :)

There are nutjobs in EVERY religion. We just have to shake our head and sigh whenever they open their mouths.

Message edited by author 2008-07-21 16:01:23.
07/21/2008 04:10:25 PM · #70
Can't remember if this started out as a rant. My major concern was that suicide not be so easily judged; and yet I have been thinking of what ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_N.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_N.gif', '/') + 1) . ' zeuszen said about embracing whatever it is that falls on your plate - loose paraphrase - and wish to affirm its profundity.
07/22/2008 02:11:11 AM · #71
Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

God judges a man's heart and if one is fully convinced in his heart that what he is doing is consistent with God's will and is not sinful then it will not be imputed to him as sin. However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


How is killing infants UTTERLY sinful? God did it...to the egyptian firstborn....

I am a Christian..but I am having a really hard time seeing where you are coming from.


First of all I said MURDERING babies is utterly sinful. Second of all if you think that God murdered babies then you are sadly mistaken and obviously do not understand God or his word the Bible. God is the creator of life. We are in fact his posessions. He gives us free will to do as we please only because he decides to. If he wants to take back all of the souls of the Egyptian firstborn they are his to take. This is NOT murder.
07/22/2008 02:13:45 AM · #72
Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by dponlyme:



If killing babies puts a smile on your face you definitely have a relationship with Jesus... you are his enemy. God judges a man's heart and if one is fully convinced in his heart that what he is doing is consistent with God's will and is not sinful then it will not be imputed to him as sin. However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


also. What if kiling infants lets me sleep better at night? (i am convinced this activity is both moral and Godly?)


As I said some things... MURDER being one of them... are laid out to be utterly sinful. There is no ambiguity.
07/22/2008 02:31:49 AM · #73
Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by dponlyme:



If killing babies puts a smile on your face you definitely have a relationship with Jesus... you are his enemy. God judges a man's heart and if one is fully convinced in his heart that what he is doing is consistent with God's will and is not sinful then it will not be imputed to him as sin. However when something is utterly sinful their is no leeway for interpretation of what God's will is... ie murdering babies. It is however possible for a man to be fully convinced that drinking alcohol in moderation is okay and within God's will for him and another feels that this is definitely a sin. For the former drinking in moderation will not be imputed as sin and the latter it will be even if in moderation. Anytime you violate your conscience you sin. This is not the only way that you can sin as many sins are laid out very plainly to be wrong. In disputable matters one should be thoroughly convinced in what is right or wrong and adhere to their conscience.


also. What if kiling infants lets me sleep better at night? (i am convinced this activity is both moral and Godly?)


As I said some things... MURDER being one of them... are laid out to be utterly sinful. There is no ambiguity.


Really? Who decides which things utterly sinful and which ones aren't? Fred Phelps? The Pope? The guy with the really big church and a TV show? You?

Nothing in the bible is absolute, it's all twisted by whoever is interpreting it to mean what they want.
07/22/2008 02:40:58 AM · #74
Originally posted by dponlyme:



First of all I said MURDERING babies is utterly sinful. Second of all if you think that God murdered babies then you are sadly mistaken and obviously do not understand God or his word the Bible. God is the creator of life. We are in fact his posessions. He gives us free will to do as we please only because he decides to. If he wants to take back all of the souls of the Egyptian firstborn they are his to take. This is NOT murder.


You can play semantics games all day...
the fact is....God killed the first born of egypt....

as for free will....I guess you could call it FREE WILL when he HARDENED the heart of the pharoah?

Once again, I am a Christian...but I am also an intelligent reader that doesn't gloss over the 'facts' presented in the bible.

In fact...you are tying yourself up in your own arguements. How can we be HIS POSSESSIONS..and yet have free will? those egyptian babies sure didn't have free will...they were only unfortunate enough to be born to stubborn parents.

Message edited by author 2008-07-22 02:43:52.
07/22/2008 02:42:08 AM · #75
Originally posted by dponlyme:


First of all I said MURDERING babies is utterly sinful. Second of all if you think that God murdered babies then you are sadly mistaken and obviously do not understand God or his word the Bible. God is the creator of life. We are in fact his posessions. He gives us free will to do as we please only because he decides to. If he wants to take back all of the souls of the Egyptian firstborn they are his to take. This is NOT murder.


You never addressed the underlying question.

If I FEEL IN MY HEART..that it is right, good and GODLY to kill babies.....how is it a sin, according to your earlier statement?
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