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07/28/2008 01:24:17 PM · #26
Originally posted by FocusPoint:

I bet 9 out of 10 photographers very well know what are they shooting and crop images while shooting ;)


I learned photography in the days of film and was always taught to crop in camera. Now it's just a bad habit because I NEVER have enough room to crop for an 8x10 without messing up the composition.

Originally posted by surfdabbler:

So, I proclaim that I am not a photographer. I'm a photoshopper. My camera is just a way to feed photoshop.


And as far as photoshop is concerned, you have to stop thinking that photography ends when the shutter is clicked. Ansel Adams had a series of books called The Camera, The Negative and The Print. A huge amount of photographic work used to go into developing the negatives and then "printing" in the darkroom. Most people probably don't realize that the characteristics of a film negative could be changed in the developing tank by changing the chemicals used, temperature and time. This was all after the image was captured and the film was out of the camera. Then there was a lot of effort that would go into printing an image in the darkroom, once again significant interpretations were made long after the shutter was clicked.

Photoshop is your darkroom and you should expect that some work will be done in post processing. Of course you should still strive for the best possible file to start with, but that isn't the end of the photographic process.

Message edited by author 2008-07-28 13:46:07.
07/28/2008 01:40:14 PM · #27
Twenty some odd years ago when I bought my first serious camera, (a Canon A-1), I was dismayed at the number of poor pictures I was shooting. Even though I tried to follow all the rules, and tried to compose in the viewfinder, what I got was seldom what I was seeing/imagining when I was shooting.

Then while reading Popular Photography, I came across an interview with a well respected pro on just that topic.

I remember him saying, if I get 2 or 3 good shots on a 36 exposure roll, it is a good day.

I burn through more pictures because the cost per picture is about nil these days. My biggest suggestion is, stop and review what you are doing. That LCD is there for a reason. If you shoot all day and get all bad pictures, you aren't paying attention.

I was stuck on ISO 100 for a long time. My new 40D doesn't seem to need 100 so badly. So there are times when I do go auto ISO. If you have a view finder that can display your shooting info, turn it on. You may feel it is a distraction, but it can give you a lot of info to help you catch a problem early.

And for you 40D users a special tip. Turn OFF the option that lets you shoot without a memory card. I have no idea why they made that available, but I did manage to take about 20 shots of a huge butterfly, nice and close up. Decided to stop and check, and found the card was still back in my computer. OOPS! No images at all, let alone badly composed, out of focus, or blurry.
07/28/2008 01:43:49 PM · #28
I am not a photgrapher either. I am a Pixelographer.
07/28/2008 01:44:17 PM · #29
Originally posted by Nusbaum:

I learned photography in the days of film and was always taught to crop in camera. Now it's just a bad habit because I NEVER have enough room to crop for an 8x10 without messing up the composition.


I agree 100% here. I always capture extra space around what I am photographing to allow me to crop in various aspect ratios while still making sure there is enough room for nice composition.

However, I am curious as to why you cropped in camera with film? I never actually printed from film before, but isn't cropping just a matter of increasing the magnification when exposing the paper?

Regarding the OP, I have heard of many tricks used in the 'old days' that where frequently used to achieve the images we admire today. Granted they didn't have photoshop, but that didn't limit their post-processing as much as you would imagine. Besides the basics of dodging and burning, they also did cloning, perspective corrections (by projecting onto a tilted paper), and scores of other tricks. Heck, many of the features you see in photoshop have origins in the darkroom. The one thing they did not have is the undo button. And that alone made things so much harder.

07/28/2008 01:48:08 PM · #30
Originally posted by ambaker:

And for you 40D users a special tip. Turn OFF the option that lets you shoot without a memory card. I have no idea why they made that available, but I did manage to take about 20 shots of a huge butterfly, nice and close up. Decided to stop and check, and found the card was still back in my computer. OOPS! No images at all, let alone badly composed, out of focus, or blurry.


As pathetic as it may sound, the reason is so that sellers can demo the camera to potential customers without the risk of someone stealing their memory card. Guess they'll have to steal the battery insted. ;)
And to think that all of us 40D buyers actually had to pay for them to develop and implement that feature :/
07/28/2008 08:12:49 PM · #31
Thanks for all your thoughts. It's good to know others out there feel the same way. We can all be frustrated together. :)

I still feel that my shots do need vast improvement in camera. I had another portrait shoot recently, and in 150 shots, honestly about 80% are out of focus throwaways. I'm not talking pixel peeping pin sharp here, I'm talking shots the average joe off the street would look at at a DPC sized preview, and their first comment would be "Oh, that's blurry". They are beyond photoshop's ability to recover them. Forget exposure, composition, posing or any artistic merit of the photos - for the next month or two or three, my #1 focus (ha ha) has to be focus. (including slow shutter blurring)

OK, now I have made that decision, I have to get out and practice. :)
07/28/2008 08:27:23 PM · #32
Originally posted by surfdabbler:


OK, now I have made that decision, I have to get out and practice. :)


That's the fun part, the actual shooting. My biggest failures and mistakes have ultimately taught me more than any shot that came out the way I wanted. Nothing motivates me more than knowing I missed a shot b/c I didn't know what I was doing in that situation. The more I shoot the more I learn, the percentage of shots that come out the way I intended increases. Happy shooting!
07/28/2008 08:38:27 PM · #33
Oh man, thank God I don't suck like you guys!

;P

07/28/2008 08:40:07 PM · #34
Originally posted by Mick:

Oh man, thank God I don't suck like you guys!

;P


Gosh... thank God I don't suck like you

LOL
07/28/2008 10:36:14 PM · #35
Originally posted by surfdabbler:

So, I proclaim that I am not a photographer. I'm a photoshopper.

The first step is admitting it. :)

Myself, I don't care how I get to the end result as long as it is as good as I intend it to be within the means and timeframe I have. I will have reached enlightenment when I find that absolute perfect balance of photographic skills and photoshop skills every time I execute an idea.
07/28/2008 10:56:41 PM · #36
PS Monkey!

I'm in that group too, but starting to get out. At least I'm not doing much more than crop and raw adjustments on my portraits in studio anymore!
07/28/2008 11:51:41 PM · #37
How do you know you are a Photographer--if you describe your work in terms of the equipment you have/want, if you want control over the shot when you take it, and if you describe the shot in terms of the camera settings--then, you are a Photographer.

How do you know you are an Artist--if you can't separate Art from anything else, if your interest is more in the process than the product, if you can collaborate with people whose talents do not match yours--then you are an Artist.

respectfully submitted...
07/29/2008 06:24:00 AM · #38
Originally posted by surfdabbler:


Getting a decent shot is simply a matter of statistics. Take an infinite number of monkeys, give them all typewriters, and one of them will produce shakespeare.


The internet has dis-proven this theory.
07/29/2008 06:31:15 AM · #39
Originally posted by surfdabbler:

Getting a decent shot is simply a matter of statistics. Take an infinite number of monkeys, give them all typewriters, and one of them will produce shakespeare.


Not to get picky here, but if you give typewriters to an infinite number of monkeys, then an infinite number of them will produce Shakespeare.
07/29/2008 07:00:03 AM · #40
Originally posted by fir3bird:

Originally posted by surfdabbler:


Getting a decent shot is simply a matter of statistics. Take an infinite number of monkeys, give them all typewriters, and one of them will produce shakespeare.


The internet has dis-proven this theory.

wow...lol..funniest response to this...

love it
07/29/2008 08:19:25 AM · #41
Originally posted by Nusbaum:

Originally posted by FocusPoint:

I bet 9 out of 10 photographers very well know what are they shooting and crop images while shooting ;)


I learned photography in the days of film and was always taught to crop in camera. Now it's just a bad habit because I NEVER have enough room to crop for an 8x10 without messing up the composition.

Originally posted by surfdabbler:

So, I proclaim that I am not a photographer. I'm a photoshopper. My camera is just a way to feed photoshop.


And as far as photoshop is concerned, you have to stop thinking that photography ends when the shutter is clicked. Ansel Adams had a series of books called The Camera, The Negative and The Print. A huge amount of photographic work used to go into developing the negatives and then "printing" in the darkroom. Most people probably don't realize that the characteristics of a film negative could be changed in the developing tank by changing the chemicals used, temperature and time. This was all after the image was captured and the film was out of the camera. Then there was a lot of effort that would go into printing an image in the darkroom, once again significant interpretations were made long after the shutter was clicked.

Photoshop is your darkroom and you should expect that some work will be done in post processing. Of course you should still strive for the best possible file to start with, but that isn't the end of the photographic process.


I would say paper size may be unimportant - as you say the best possible file is often ruined by cramming it into an unnatural format. Leave some air around your beautiful images. I'll quote you "...expect that some work will be done in post processing"
07/29/2008 08:42:15 AM · #42
Originally posted by ambaker:

And for you 40D users a special tip. Turn OFF the option that lets you shoot without a memory card.


The 5D has this option also. I once was shooting for an hour before I realized there was no card in the camera. Since then I've bought a neck strap that holds 2 spare cards so I'm never without.

Message edited by author 2008-07-29 08:42:48.
07/29/2008 09:00:28 AM · #43
Originally posted by surfdabbler:

So, I proclaim that I am not a photographer. I'm a photoshopper.

Nope!

You're an artist with vision. I don't care what you want to do as far as categorizing yourself, or why you'd even want to, but this is an image that is lovely and evocative.......and wouldn't be possible without vision & talent.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/871/120/691707.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/871/120/691707.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

It speaks to me, I really like it, and AFAIAC, you're very much okay at what you do.

Lighten up! LOL!!!


07/29/2008 09:31:08 AM · #44
Originally posted by fir3bird:

Originally posted by surfdabbler:


Getting a decent shot is simply a matter of statistics. Take an infinite number of monkeys, give them all typewriters, and one of them will produce shakespeare.


The internet has dis-proven this theory.


No, the internet just proves that shakespeare will be lost forever, drowned amidst the monkeys. Dear ebay seller, my infinite monkeys are not working as advertised. Please send more. :)
07/29/2008 09:34:29 AM · #45
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

You're an artist with vision. I don't care what you want to do as far as categorizing yourself, or why you'd even want to, but this is an image that is lovely and evocative.......and wouldn't be possible without vision & talent.

It speaks to me, I really like it, and AFAIAC, you're very much okay at what you do.

Lighten up! LOL!!!


Thanks, ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' NikonJeb for your comments. I think this shot will be my benchmark for a while now. :)
07/29/2008 10:14:06 AM · #46
FWIW.......I have finally become comfortable in my quest to produce what I want, and like, and the heck with how I get there.

I have a vision in my head and my heart that I try to achieve when I push the shutter button.

Sometimes, I even get exactly what I was going for when I'm done.

That was not very often a possibility when someone else was doing the processing in their darkroom.

I didn't realize the extent of that until I was doing my own work.

I have quite a few images that due to cropping and orientation take on completely different perspectives.......yet are from the same original image.

I often will find an image file months after I originally processed it and see something else that I didn't in the first run through.

Yeah, I get a bunch of stuff that I don't/can't use, but I take a lot more shots at it since I'm not paying to develop every image.

The choice of color or B&W at the click of a mouse is one of the most empowering tools I can think of, and it took PhotoShop to get me to even consider the medium......for the first quarter century, I NEVER shot B&W.

I feel that my learning curve, AS A PHOTOGRAPHER has increased exponentially with my introduction and subsequent use of PS.......just learning to utilize the crop feature in a rule-of-thirds manner has increased my understanding of the art & science of photography.

PS is a tool, and I'm glad to have it to augment, and teach me, the art & science of photography.

And at the end of the day?

I can do some cool, fun stuff with it, too!

Just my $0.02 US......YMMV......8>)

Message edited by author 2008-07-29 11:25:23.
07/29/2008 10:46:16 AM · #47
I think that using a camera creates an awareness of picture composition. You start to walk around seeing pictures.

I watched my clever brother doing darkroom things about 40-50 years ago. 20 odd years later I bought an SLR, got the shutterbug bug and my own little darkroom. Some sort of life crisis cropped up so I had to sell everything to raise cash a bit quick.

I'm way too old to even know how to turn on a computer, but then I became a mature student and (along with a wife) felt that I needed word processing abilities and hardware.

We had fun with MSpaint and things, then the step son (who is not too old to turn on computers) started a course as a 'media engineer'. 'Try this' he says, and gives us a student copy of Photoshop 4.0. This was a little over ten years after my forced separation from photography and a little over ten years before today.

With my previous knowledge of SLR photography and darkroom production, the step son's nerdy expertise with the digital aspect and the wife's talent and professional training in the visual arts, I hit the ground running, jumping and swimming like an Olympic village with its arse on fire.

As a result, I now take flat boring photographs that require a lot of Photoshop just to coax them out of the locker, I crop more than I compose and if there's a learning curve then it's way up there in the cloud above my head.

Good 'ere, innit?
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