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08/10/2008 09:15:29 AM · #1
Why didn't Russia go to the UN before invading Gerogia?

With that question asked, I want to say...

You should be able to answer the question without saying:

Anything about the United States
Anything about Bush
Anything about Obama
Anything about McCain
Anything about Haliburton (sp?)
Anything about the Price of Gas
Anything about Iraq
Anything about Edwards' lover
Anything about Paris Hilton

If you use ANY reference to any of the above "topics", may your finger you use to take pictures develop a very bad rash.

Edited to add another "Anything" above. Edited again to add another Anything.

Message edited by author 2008-08-10 10:24:14.
08/10/2008 09:26:24 AM · #2
Though Russia is a part of the UN, they neither require or want UN input on their actions over what they see as an unrecognized rogue government. To them, this is an internal matter.
08/10/2008 09:28:37 AM · #3
Sweet...No rash for you.

I know very little of the region. Was Gerogia a free nations before the Soviet Union?

Originally posted by signal2noise:

Though Russia is a part of the UN, they neither require or want UN input on their actions over what they see as an unrecognized rogue government. To them, this is an internal matter.


Message edited by author 2008-08-10 09:33:19.
08/10/2008 09:35:46 AM · #4
Originally posted by kenskid:

Sweet...

I know very little of the region. Was Gerogia a free nations before the Soviet Union?

Originally posted by signal2noise:

Though Russia is a part of the UN, they neither require or want UN input on their actions over what they see as an unrecognized rogue government. To them, this is an internal matter.


In 1783 Georgia, an ancient kingdom really, signed a treaty with Russia and became part of the Russian Empire.

In 1918, after the Russian Revolution of 1917 when the monarchy was overthrown and during the Russian civil war, Georgia declared Independence from Russia.

In 1921 the Red Army overran Georgia (the Russians claiming she was a renegade part of their country) and Georgia was annexed into the Soviet Union, where she remained (under considerable protest from many of her citizens) until the breakup of the Soviet Union, when she once again declared independence.

(I think I have that right)

R.

Message edited by author 2008-08-10 09:36:08.
08/10/2008 10:12:52 AM · #5
Why didn't Russia go to the UN? According to Russian media reports Georgia is the true aggressor. Georgian forces attacked the breakaway republic of South Ossetia (not sure I spelled that correctly), killing Russian peacekeepers in the process.

Why would Russia go to the UN to get permission to defend itself?

In truth, we'll probably never know who really fired the first shot. This has been buiding up for several months at least. Georgia had been pushing for Russia to remove its forces from S. Ossetia, Russia was pushing for Georgia to give up all claims on S. Ossetia and allow it to become part of Russia.

Russia has additional motivations for wanting to crush Georgia- although given the decade long plus war in Azerbaijan it makes you wonder why they'd want to head off in conquest of another region- Georgia has been pushing for NATO and EU membership. Russia views this as a serious threat, added in with the fact that the Ukraine seeks NATO membership and crushing Georgia could be seen as sending a message to Ukrainians to reconsider their thinking on NATO membership.
08/10/2008 10:25:45 AM · #6
If Bear is right then I think it was "ok" for Georgia to declare independance from the Soviet Union. But since the Soviets dissolved...is it still ok for Georgia to want independance?

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by kenskid:

Sweet...

I know very little of the region. Was Gerogia a free nations before the Soviet Union?

Originally posted by signal2noise:

Though Russia is a part of the UN, they neither require or want UN input on their actions over what they see as an unrecognized rogue government. To them, this is an internal matter.


In 1783 Georgia, an ancient kingdom really, signed a treaty with Russia and became part of the Russian Empire.

In 1918, after the Russian Revolution of 1917 when the monarchy was overthrown and during the Russian civil war, Georgia declared Independence from Russia.

In 1921 the Red Army overran Georgia (the Russians claiming she was a renegade part of their country) and Georgia was annexed into the Soviet Union, where she remained (under considerable protest from many of her citizens) until the breakup of the Soviet Union, when she once again declared independence.

(I think I have that right)

R.
08/10/2008 10:32:29 AM · #7
Originally posted by signal2noise:

Though Russia is a part of the UN, they neither require or want UN input on their actions over what they see as an unrecognized rogue government. To them, this is an internal matter.


Eh, no. Georgia is a sovereign nation and is recognized as so by Russia and everybody else. What you said may apply for Georgia - S. Ossetia relations. S. Ossetia has declared independence but it's not recognized by anyone - even Russia, formally speaking. Russia invaded inside S. Ossetia after Georgian forces invaded S. Ossetian bombing Tskhinvali without warning and killing Russian peacekeepers.

(from bbc)

THURSDAY 7 AUGUST

Georgian forces and separatists in South Ossetia agree to observe a ceasefire and hold Russian-mediated talks to end their long-simmering conflict.

Hours later, Georgian forces launch a surprise attack, sending a large force against the breakaway province and reaching the capital Tskhinvali.

South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity accuses Georgia of a "perfidious and base step".

The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia says the operation is intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government says the troops are "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians".

Russia's special envoy in South Ossetia, Yury Popov, says Georgia's military operation shows that it cannot be trusted and he calls on Nato to reconsider plans to offer it membership.


Message edited by author 2008-08-10 10:36:38.
08/10/2008 11:09:13 AM · #8
Originally posted by kenskid:

Why didn't Russia go to the UN before invading Gerogia?

To do what?
08/10/2008 01:10:03 PM · #9
I'm not sure...maybe to get "sanctions" in place....and after two or three years of sanctions not working the Russians could request the UN to approve the use of force?

I thought that is how it was supposed to work.

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by kenskid:

Why didn't Russia go to the UN before invading Gerogia?

To do what?
08/10/2008 01:29:55 PM · #10
Originally posted by kenskid:

I'm not sure...maybe to get "sanctions" in place.

Sanctions for the internal affairs of a different country? Imagine Texas wanted to gain independence from the US and Mexico would then go to the UN to demand sanctions against the US...

Russia would still like to control the countries of the former Soviet Union (as well as other neighbors...). And in this area, there are always regions that seek independence from the country they currently belong to. If a region belonging to Russia wants to gain independence (Chechnya, for example), the Russians send troops to prevent that from happening. If a region of a neighboring country seeks independence, Russia welcomes that. Especially if the other country is oriented more toward the West. Supporting the region seeking independence, they can get at least a part of the other country back in their camp. And destabilize the other country, thereby preventing it from forging stronger alliances with the West.

They're simply power games. And the people suffer. Russia wouldn't be able to meet any of its objectives by going through the UN.
08/10/2008 02:26:45 PM · #11
Because they want results.

A large number of the people in the province hold Russian passports. They have more in common with Russia than with Georgia. Russia sees an excuse to solve the issue permanently. Why bother with more peace keepers, and UN bickering and mandates? Sound familiar?
08/10/2008 02:27:39 PM · #12
Originally posted by kenskid:

Why didn't Russia go to the UN before invading Gerogia?

With that question asked, I want to say...

You should be able to answer the question without saying:

Anything about the United States
Anything about Bush
Anything about Obama
Anything about McCain
Anything about Haliburton (sp?)
Anything about the Price of Gas
Anything about Iraq
Anything about Edwards' lover
Anything about Paris Hilton

If you use ANY reference to any of the above "topics", may your finger you use to take pictures develop a very bad rash.

Edited to add another "Anything" above. Edited again to add another Anything.


It's most likely because Obama's control over the United states will not only likely surpass Bush's attempts, but any possible action by McCain. The fact that he vacationed to Haliburton as a child is likely a rumour, but the possibility remains; the price of gas back then was not high enough to thwart any such long drives. Of course, whether he knew about Iraq's future attempts at terrorism or not is undoubted- if he had known, he would not have co-fathered John Edward's love child.

EDIT: "Paris Hilton"

Message edited by author 2008-08-10 14:28:06.
08/10/2008 03:27:41 PM · #13
Originally posted by ambaker:

Because they want results.

A large number of the people in the province hold Russian passports. They have more in common with Russia than with Georgia. Russia sees an excuse to solve the issue permanently. Why bother with more peace keepers, and UN bickering and mandates? Sound familiar?


Exactly, Russia considers those who hold Russian passports as Russian citizens. Aside from the issue of its peacekeeping troops being killed, the way Russia sees it, its citizens are directly threatened by Georgian military action. That justifies Russia in taking military action.

A Western Hemisphere parallel is the US led invasion of Grenada, which was publicly justified by the presence of American medical students at St. George's University. I suspect that the real reason for the invasion of Grenada was really to prevent the use of its airstrip by the Soviets. This intent was confirmed by an entry in the diary of the Defense Minister that was recovered by the Marines.

As with most actions of this kind, there's almost certain to be different motives on different levels.
08/10/2008 03:45:54 PM · #14
Originally posted by LanndonKane:

It's most likely because Obama's control over the United states will not only likely surpass Bush's attempts, but any possible action by McCain. The fact that he vacationed to Haliburton as a child is likely a rumour, but the possibility remains; the price of gas back then was not high enough to thwart any such long drives. Of course, whether he knew about Iraq's future attempts at terrorism or not is undoubted- if he had known, he would not have co-fathered John Edward's love child.

EDIT: "Paris Hilton"

ROFL... well done! Can you feel the rash starting yet? ;O)
08/10/2008 04:33:19 PM · #15
Because they don't have stupid, liberal democrats in Russia that force their president to allow the rest of the world to share in decisions affecting their country.
08/10/2008 04:38:41 PM · #16
Originally posted by dfstevenson:

Because they don't have stupid, liberal democrats in Russia that force their president to allow the rest of the world to share in decisions affecting their country.

And yet another case for Poe's Law...
08/10/2008 04:40:58 PM · #17
Originally posted by dfstevenson:

Because they don't have stupid, liberal democrats in Russia that force their president to allow the rest of the world to share in decisions affecting their country.


Yes, they just kill or imprison anyone who dares dissent.
08/10/2008 05:51:20 PM · #18
The biggest problem in that region is that there are many, many historical nomadic tribes who simply got borders drawn around them by others. So you have the Ossetians, divided in a Russian part (north) and a Georgian part (south). The Russians, nor the Georgians really want to give them freedom, but they like the Russians more because there is a bigger chance that they can form a united Ossetian under the Russians.

And it doesn't help that they have some oil pipelines running across the country.

For any further explanation I would have to use many of the words that I am not allowed to use here, but can summerize to: "it's all dirty politics from all sides and from sides who have historically nothing to do with that region and should stick their noses in their own business, because the last time someone pulled shit like this it ended up in a theocratic anti-western state"


08/10/2008 06:06:23 PM · #19
Originally posted by dfstevenson:

Because they don't have stupid, liberal democrats in Russia that force their president to allow the rest of the world to share in decisions affecting their country.


Wow. Just wow.

Dimplomacy isn't a liberal/conservative thing. It is something that needs to be used in certain situations and not used in others.

Don't start this arguement.
08/10/2008 06:55:48 PM · #20
Originally posted by roba:

Originally posted by LanndonKane:

It's most likely because Obama's control over the United states will not only likely surpass Bush's attempts, but any possible action by McCain. The fact that he vacationed to Haliburton as a child is likely a rumour, but the possibility remains; the price of gas back then was not high enough to thwart any such long drives. Of course, whether he knew about Iraq's future attempts at terrorism or not is undoubted- if he had known, he would not have co-fathered John Edward's love child.

EDIT: "Paris Hilton"

ROFL... well done! Can you feel the rash starting yet? ;O)


Luckily I have a remote shutter release ;)
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