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10/18/2008 04:53:07 PM · #126
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

"Porn often if not always takes the position that women are here to service the man sexually." In some cases, yes, and to some people, men AND women, that sort of thing is what they enjoy. The same could be said for the man serving the needs of the woman. In most situations, it's absolutely mutual. In any event, the people acting in the film are there of their own free will. They make porn because they want to, not because there's a gun to their head. If anything, it's the women in porn that have the control over what happens, what things they will and will not do.


That's fine, but just for the sake of argument, the fact that people might, hypothetically, participate of their own free will in an industry founded on the degrading of women does not alter the fact that the degrading happens. It's not the condition of the actors and actresses that concerns us, it's the quality or essence of the output that matters.

R.


Just to add that "of their own free will" is a problematic concept when it comes to participation in the sex industry, at least for women. I don't know about porn movies specifically, but I recall from my university years the many studies I read that were conducted of female prostitutes and strippers. If I recall correctly, it was upwards of 80 percent of the women who became involved in these activities had been the victims of childhood sexual abuse. Most had been diagnosed with one or several forms of psychological disorder, everything from post-traumatic stress to multiple personality disorder. Almost none reported having satisfactory or fulfilling or happy sexual relationships.

Sorry; I know this is off topic a bit, but I just thought I'd throw some of these facts into the mix.

(As an aside, almost 100 percent of prostitutes and strippers were either alcoholics or drug abusers, and some very large number had eating disorders. Of course, many also suffered from chronic sexually transmitted diseases.)
10/18/2008 05:22:07 PM · #127
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

What about the sexuality of the men involved? Do you feel that their sexuality is being exploited?

Pretty much, categorically NOT.

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The same could be said for the man serving the needs of the woman.
Oh yeah, that happens ALL the time.

The majority of women that I've met, while growing up, dating, and to this day as friends, have always seemed amazed that any man would have the slightest interest in them as a human being and an individual completely separate from them as an object of physical desire.

Sometimes it seems so foreign to them I am embarrassed for my gender.

It always seemed to be an alien concept that a man would seek friendship from a woman.

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

In most situations, it's absolutely mutual.

Bullsh*t.....rarely is it.
10/18/2008 05:44:14 PM · #128
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:


Why do you think all porn is necessarily degrading to women?


I cannot speak to every single piece of pornography but the mere fact that the sexuality of women is being exploited for the viewing pleasure of millions of horny men who have no other thought towards her other than her physical qualities I feel degrades women into a collection of body parts with no other redeeming characteristic. Porn often if not always takes the position that women are here to service the men sexually. That to me is degrading of the female gender. I think our society as a whole degrades women as nothing but sexual objects in our entertainment but it reaches it's most blatant and undeniable peak when it comes to pornography.

What about the sexuality of the men involved? Do you feel that their sexuality is being exploited?

"Porn often if not always takes the position that women are here to service the man sexually." In some cases, yes, and to some people, men AND women, that sort of thing is what they enjoy. The same could be said for the man serving the needs of the woman. In most situations, it's absolutely mutual. In any event, the people acting in the film are there of their own free will. They make porn because they want to, not because there's a gun to their head. If anything, it's the women in porn that have the control over what happens, what things they will and will not do.

I don't know if anyone's ever seen that reality series about the "Seymour Butts" guy ("Family Business" I think), but there's an episode where they're about to start filming, and the actors have to hold their ID up to the camera and say they are willing participants in the film. The woman are pretty gung-ho. One says, "My name is Mary Poppins" -- okay, that wasn't her name, but I can't remember it now -- "and I definitely am a willing participant, can't wait, WOO-HOO!" Boy, how degrading.

And to all the porn naysayers, you must be pretty okay with gay porn, since not a single woman is in sight to be degraded.
10/18/2008 06:20:27 PM · #129
Originally posted by Jac:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:


Why do you think all porn is necessarily degrading to women?


I cannot speak to every single piece of pornography but the mere fact that the sexuality of women is being exploited for the viewing pleasure of millions of horny men who have no other thought towards her other than her physical qualities I feel degrades women into a collection of body parts with no other redeeming characteristic. Porn often if not always takes the position that women are here to service the men sexually. That to me is degrading of the female gender. I think our society as a whole degrades women as nothing but sexual objects in our entertainment but it reaches it's most blatant and undeniable peak when it comes to pornography.


Why do women do it then? The only thing dirty about pornography is your dirty mind, not that yours is any dirtier than someone else. Porn is a record of a sexual act usually between two consenting adults. Do you not have sex? I don't like opera, it always gives me a headache and I never understand anything they're saying. Do I go to the opera, no. Do I read articles about opera, no. I avoid it at all costs because I do not like to be exposed to it. It's an easy task actually, and it makes me wonder why people don't do the same with pornography and other things they don't like.


Why does anyone do things that really aren't in the best interests of themselves or a demographic they represent?? Most likely it is the money they earn and the truth is that most women don't do it. Most men don't act in porn either. It is just the fact that porn is perpetrated by the few and condoned by the many. The few have a much greater influence on the many because of the ability to distribute their 'message' most effectively to the many by using their own natural sexuality against them. Men are tempted to watch porn because we find women and their naked bodies to be intoxicating.
Literally your brain sends out endorphins when exposed to this stuff. That is how it gets to be addicting.

I doubt that most who watch are thinking anything particularly nice about the 'actresses'. No, quite the opposite. I doubt many have a high opinion of porn actresses. They are, by definition, whores. Now I'm sure that doesn't encompass their entire existence but it is their occupation. What porn does to men is to desensitize them to the fact that women are people first and foremost and not just, as I have said before, a collection of body parts. I do not think it is beneficial for society. It leads to bad sexual attitudes towards women.

Opera on the other hand, while boring, does not impact peoples attitudes and corrupt them morally. But morality is a whole different argument.

Yes I do have sex... with my wife and not my right hand while watching a porno and I don't record it for the world to see.
10/18/2008 06:39:17 PM · #130
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

"Porn often if not always takes the position that women are here to service the man sexually." In some cases, yes, and to some people, men AND women, that sort of thing is what they enjoy. The same could be said for the man serving the needs of the woman. In most situations, it's absolutely mutual. In any event, the people acting in the film are there of their own free will. They make porn because they want to, not because there's a gun to their head. If anything, it's the women in porn that have the control over what happens, what things they will and will not do.


That's fine, but just for the sake of argument, the fact that people might, hypothetically, participate of their own free will in an industry founded on the degrading of women does not alter the fact that the degrading happens. It's not the condition of the actors and actresses that concerns us, it's the quality or essence of the output that matters.

R.


Just to add that "of their own free will" is a problematic concept when it comes to participation in the sex industry, at least for women. I don't know about porn movies specifically, but I recall from my university years the many studies I read that were conducted of female prostitutes and strippers. If I recall correctly, it was upwards of 80 percent of the women who became involved in these activities had been the victims of childhood sexual abuse. Most had been diagnosed with one or several forms of psychological disorder, everything from post-traumatic stress to multiple personality disorder. Almost none reported having satisfactory or fulfilling or happy sexual relationships.

Sorry; I know this is off topic a bit, but I just thought I'd throw some of these facts into the mix.

(As an aside, almost 100 percent of prostitutes and strippers were either alcoholics or drug abusers, and some very large number had eating disorders. Of course, many also suffered from chronic sexually transmitted diseases.)


Also, off topic but since you mentioned prostitution, MSNBC ran a documentary recently about how many prostitutes today are actually part of the human trafficking industry (i.e. slaves) and are forced into prostitution.
10/18/2008 06:40:29 PM · #131
Originally posted by Louis:


I don't know if anyone's ever seen that reality series about the "Seymour Butts" guy ("Family Business" I think), but there's an episode where they're about to start filming, and the actors have to hold their ID up to the camera and say they are willing participants in the film. The woman are pretty gung-ho. One says, "My name is Mary Poppins" -- okay, that wasn't her name, but I can't remember it now -- "and I definitely am a willing participant, can't wait, WOO-HOO!" Boy, how degrading.

And to all the porn naysayers, you must be pretty okay with gay porn, since not a single woman is in sight to be degraded.


Maybe the actresses themselves don't mind and actually enjoy being whores but that does not negate the negative effects that other women have to endure as a result of their actions. As far as gay porn goes... it is certainly not good for the image of gay couples who wish to be seen as respectable human beings who love one another. I would think that their are just as many gay people who do not view porn in a good light, gay or otherwise.

Porn is exploitive in nature generally. That's why you have very young girls in porn. At even the ripe old age of eighteen I don't think they have the wherewithal to understand the path they are embarking on. Most are probably high school dropouts and not very worldly. Do you figure they are being done a favor by having the opportunity to become a whore. I would say no, they are being exploited. I don't have any facts and figures to back up my thoughts but it just makes logical sense that those who are at a disadvantage financially and educationally are the ones who will end up in this industry and what they have done will then potentially follow them around for the rest of their lives.
10/18/2008 06:42:17 PM · #132
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

What about the sexuality of the men involved? Do you feel that their sexuality is being exploited?

Pretty much, categorically NOT.

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The same could be said for the man serving the needs of the woman.
Oh yeah, that happens ALL the time.

The majority of women that I've met, while growing up, dating, and to this day as friends, have always seemed amazed that any man would have the slightest interest in them as a human being and an individual completely separate from them as an object of physical desire.

Sometimes it seems so foreign to them I am embarrassed for my gender.

It always seemed to be an alien concept that a man would seek friendship from a woman.

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

In most situations, it's absolutely mutual.

Bullsh*t.....rarely is it.


Your whole post is just so full of crap.

You say men in porn aren't degraded, yet women are. WTF? That just screams of your own gender bias.

The fact you've chosen to associate yourself with women who have low self esteem and place their sense of self worth in their attractiveness to men has nothing to do with porn.

What do you know of the porn industry? Do you think the women making porn aren't there of their own free will?
I'll tell you, the women in porn run the show. They say what they will and won't do and who they'll do it with. No one is making them do it, they're participating of their own accord and being paid well for it.
10/18/2008 06:50:40 PM · #133
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Your whole post is just so full of crap.

You say men in porn aren't degraded, yet women are. WTF? That just screams of your own gender bias.

The fact you've chosen to associate yourself with women who have low self esteem and place their sense of self worth in their attractiveness to men has nothing to do with porn.

What do you know of the porn industry? Do you think the women making porn aren't there of their own free will?
I'll tell you, the women in porn run the show. They say what they will and won't do and who they'll do it with. No one is making them do it, they're participating of their own accord and being paid well for it.

I base my statements on my knowledge of women as I've gotten to know them over the years.

Without exception, all of them had been treated abysmally by at least one man, more often most men in pursuit of what THEY, the men, wanted.

The vast majority of men treat women like shit as people and view them as objects.

The idea that men are used against their will in the porn industry is just patently absurd.

If you really think that by and large that women aren't for the most part treated badly, well.....I'd really have to say that you've really never much taken the time to talk to women about what they've experienced in the dating world......nor cared to...

Gender bias?

Yeah......I'm *SUCH* a girl! ROFL!!!!
10/18/2008 06:50:42 PM · #134
Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by Louis:


I don't know if anyone's ever seen that reality series about the "Seymour Butts" guy ("Family Business" I think), but there's an episode where they're about to start filming, and the actors have to hold their ID up to the camera and say they are willing participants in the film. The woman are pretty gung-ho. One says, "My name is Mary Poppins" -- okay, that wasn't her name, but I can't remember it now -- "and I definitely am a willing participant, can't wait, WOO-HOO!" Boy, how degrading.

And to all the porn naysayers, you must be pretty okay with gay porn, since not a single woman is in sight to be degraded.


Maybe the actresses themselves don't mind and actually enjoy being whores but that does not negate the negative effects that other women have to endure as a result of their actions. As far as gay porn goes... it is certainly not good for the image of gay couples who wish to be seen as respectable human beings who love one another. I would think that their are just as many gay people who do not view porn in a good light, gay or otherwise.

Porn is exploitive in nature generally. That's why you have very young girls in porn. At even the ripe old age of eighteen I don't think they have the wherewithal to understand the path they are embarking on. Most are probably high school dropouts and not very worldly. Do you figure they are being done a favor by having the opportunity to become a whore. I would say no, they are being exploited. I don't have any facts and figures to back up my thoughts but it just makes logical sense that those who are at a disadvantage financially and educationally are the ones who will end up in this industry and what they have done will then potentially follow them around for the rest of their lives.


You keep saying that porn is exploitative, but you offer nothing aside from your own opinion and speculation in support of that.

It's no different than me claiming that Christians are intolerant, brainwashed zealots.
10/18/2008 06:54:29 PM · #135
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The fact you've chosen to associate yourself with women who have low self esteem and place their sense of self worth in their attractiveness to men has nothing to do with porn.

Oops!

Forgot to respond to this......got a GOOD laugh!

Did you read the part where I was talking about women as friends?

That negates the whole discussion about a woman's attractiveness.

Maybe I should say it
s  l  o  w  l  y


Women are PEOPLE first and foremost.
10/18/2008 06:55:13 PM · #136
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

What about the sexuality of the men involved? Do you feel that their sexuality is being exploited?

Pretty much, categorically NOT.

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The same could be said for the man serving the needs of the woman.
Oh yeah, that happens ALL the time.

The majority of women that I've met, while growing up, dating, and to this day as friends, have always seemed amazed that any man would have the slightest interest in them as a human being and an individual completely separate from them as an object of physical desire.

Sometimes it seems so foreign to them I am embarrassed for my gender.

It always seemed to be an alien concept that a man would seek friendship from a woman.

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

In most situations, it's absolutely mutual.

Bullsh*t.....rarely is it.


Your whole post is just so full of crap.

You say men in porn aren't degraded, yet women are. WTF? That just screams of your own gender bias.

The fact you've chosen to associate yourself with women who have low self esteem and place their sense of self worth in their attractiveness to men has nothing to do with porn.

What do you know of the porn industry? Do you think the women making porn aren't there of their own free will?
I'll tell you, the women in porn run the show. They say what they will and won't do and who they'll do it with. No one is making them do it, they're participating of their own accord and being paid well for it.


I actually would respectfully disagree with NikonJeb in this area. I feel that men are being degraded as well. While there is definitely a different standard of sexuality that men adhere to I do feel that these men who participate degrade men as a whole as well. Their is also a word for these types of men: Whoremonger.
10/18/2008 07:04:11 PM · #137
Boy, I sure opened up a can of worms. Ooops
10/18/2008 07:05:44 PM · #138
Originally posted by Spazmo99:



You keep saying that porn is exploitative, but you offer nothing aside from your own opinion and speculation in support of that.

It's no different than me claiming that Christians are intolerant, brainwashed zealots.


Now don't get all upset, I'm sure you could google it and find all kinds of opinions facts and figures to support my point of view as well as yours. It is nice to know that you feel the argument that Christians are intolerant, brainwashed zealots is a specious one.
10/18/2008 07:05:56 PM · #139
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Your whole post is just so full of crap.

You say men in porn aren't degraded, yet women are. WTF? That just screams of your own gender bias.

The fact you've chosen to associate yourself with women who have low self esteem and place their sense of self worth in their attractiveness to men has nothing to do with porn.

What do you know of the porn industry? Do you think the women making porn aren't there of their own free will?
I'll tell you, the women in porn run the show. They say what they will and won't do and who they'll do it with. No one is making them do it, they're participating of their own accord and being paid well for it.

I base my statements on my knowledge of women as I've gotten to know them over the years.

Without exception, all of them had been treated abysmally by at least one man, more often most men in pursuit of what THEY, the men, wanted.

The vast majority of men treat women like shit as people and view them as objects.

The idea that men are used against their will in the porn industry is just patently absurd.

If you really think that by and large that women aren't for the most part treated badly, well.....I'd really have to say that you've really never much taken the time to talk to women about what they've experienced in the dating world......nor cared to...

Gender bias?

Yeah......I'm *SUCH* a girl! ROFL!!!!


Are you kidding me? Do you have such a low opinion of women that you think they are not people with their own free will?

10/18/2008 07:08:58 PM · #140
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The fact you've chosen to associate yourself with women who have low self esteem and place their sense of self worth in their attractiveness to men has nothing to do with porn.

Oops!

Forgot to respond to this......got a GOOD laugh!

Did you read the part where I was talking about women as friends?

That negates the whole discussion about a woman's attractiveness.

Maybe I should say it
s  l  o  w  l  y


Women are PEOPLE first and foremost.


Yet in your posts, you act like they are tender beings to be shielded from predatory men. That's not treating them like people, that's treating them like children.
10/18/2008 07:11:45 PM · #141
I find the topic of this thread offensive. I am an American and see no problem with the advertisement nor the movie and think getting uptight over such things is down right silly. Thank you.
10/18/2008 07:14:34 PM · #142
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The fact you've chosen to associate yourself with women who have low self esteem and place their sense of self worth in their attractiveness to men has nothing to do with porn.

Oops!

Forgot to respond to this......got a GOOD laugh!

Did you read the part where I was talking about women as friends?

That negates the whole discussion about a woman's attractiveness.

Maybe I should say it
s  l  o  w  l  y


Women are PEOPLE first and foremost.


Yet in your posts, you act like they are tender beings to be shielded from predatory men. That's not treating them like people, that's treating them like children.


Hmmm... when was the last time you heard of a man being raped? I don't think it's treating them like children... They should be treated like they are women. Women are rarely sexual predators when compared to men. Women most often do not have the physical ability to defend themselves against a man. That's just a fact.
10/18/2008 07:18:10 PM · #143
Originally posted by togtog:

I find the topic of this thread offensive. I am an American and see no problem with the advertisement nor the movie and think getting uptight over such things is down right silly. Thank you.


I don't see any huge problem with the movie or title either. I do think it is indicative of where our culture is going and I don't think it is necessarily a good place however. I don't find it offensive, I find it sad that I don't.
10/18/2008 07:20:30 PM · #144
Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The fact you've chosen to associate yourself with women who have low self esteem and place their sense of self worth in their attractiveness to men has nothing to do with porn.

Oops!

Forgot to respond to this......got a GOOD laugh!

Did you read the part where I was talking about women as friends?

That negates the whole discussion about a woman's attractiveness.

Maybe I should say it
s  l  o  w  l  y


Women are PEOPLE first and foremost.


Yet in your posts, you act like they are tender beings to be shielded from predatory men. That's not treating them like people, that's treating them like children.


Hmmm... when was the last time you heard of a man being raped? I don't think it's treating them like children... They should be treated like they are women. Women are rarely sexual predators when compared to men. Women most often do not have the physical ability to defend themselves against a man. That's just a fact.


At least you admit your bias. However, we weren't talking about rape, physical assault or sexual predation.

10/18/2008 07:20:31 PM · #145
Dbl post

Message edited by author 2008-10-18 19:20:56.
10/18/2008 07:31:12 PM · #146
Originally posted by Spazmo99:



At least you admit your bias. However, we weren't talking about rape, physical assault or sexual predation.


What bias?
10/18/2008 07:34:46 PM · #147
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Yet in your posts, you act like they are tender beings to be shielded from predatory men. That's not treating them like people, that's treating them like children.

Not really.....what I said is that women generally are not treated as people, individuals, or as friends by men......men generally have an agenda with women, or they just hang out with their buddies.....other men.

How many women do you have as friends?

More than men? Half as many? Some?

My point is that most men simply do not choose to spend their time with women.....unless they want something.

Do you really mean to tell me that you've never noticed this?
10/18/2008 07:35:48 PM · #148
Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:



At least you admit your bias. However, we weren't talking about rape, physical assault or sexual predation.


What bias?


That women should be treated differently than men.
10/18/2008 09:49:26 PM · #149
Originally posted by dponlyme:

Maybe the actresses themselves don't mind and actually enjoy being whores...

Er -- so are women in pornography exploited, or are they whores?
10/18/2008 10:05:31 PM · #150
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:



At least you admit your bias. However, we weren't talking about rape, physical assault or sexual predation.


What bias?


That women should be treated differently than men.


I would treat women differently than I would other men in the fact that they are physically not as strong in general and my inclination would be to protect them from harm by another man. If that is bias then I guess I am biased.
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