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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> An idea for the auto bailout
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12/02/2008 09:33:59 PM · #1

Give ford 25 billion. Let them buy toyota or honda with it.
12/02/2008 09:39:26 PM · #2
No don't. At least with Toyota or Honda as they are you can get a reliable car. If you let Ford have them there will be no more reliable cars, except maybe the Focus.
12/02/2008 09:41:59 PM · #3
How about we give them nothing and they can beg on the streets... sheese... see Fords response plan - sell a few private planes and have the CEO earn $1 in salary... when most of his income is in undeserved bonuses & options..... Give me a break....
12/02/2008 09:45:57 PM · #4
I sense the Rant forum nearing... (( sniff sniff )) :-)

Btw this is not happening as long as there is influence of Plutacracy on the U.S. political system.
12/02/2008 09:52:07 PM · #5
Maybe if they had a plan for competing in the market rather than whining when they can't, a bailout would be more palatable.
12/02/2008 10:10:18 PM · #6
Hypothetical I know, but Ford buying Honda or Toyota would be a mistake. Ford is going to be fine on it's own.

Reliability trends - Consumer Reports

Noteworthy quotes:
"This year's forecast shows that domestic models, led by Ford, continue to improve and that there are small improvements in European makes as well."

"Only three domestic models made the Most reliable list: the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, and the two-wheel-drive Ford F-150 with the V6 engine. U.S. makes, however, account for almost half the models—25 of 44—on the Least reliable list. There are 13 from GM, 6 from Chrysler, and 1 from Ford."

IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety) 2009 Model Year Safest New Cars
12/02/2008 10:17:30 PM · #7
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Maybe if they had a plan for competing in the market rather than whining when they can't, a bailout would be more palatable.

Ford relied way too heavily on their truck/suv sales much longer than they should have, but I do think they are the most progressive of the American automakers and will come out of this a much stronger company. JMO of course. :-)

Ford tells Congress it may be able to go it alone

"Ford Motor Co., in far better shape than GM and Chrysler LLC, asked for a $9 billion "standby line of credit" to stabilize its business but said it didn't expect to tap the funds unless one of Detroit's other Big Three went bust. Its plan projected Ford would break even or turn a pretax profit in 2011."

"Ford's recovery blueprint said it would invest $14 billion over the next seven years to boost its vehicles' fuel efficiency, and it said it would improve the overall efficiency of its fleet by an average of 14 percent next year. The company plans to speed its rollout of electric and hybrid gas-electric vehicles."

"And Ford is calling for a partnership among automakers, parts suppliers and the government to develop new battery technologies domestically, so the U.S. doesn't have to rely on foreign batteries — as it now does on foreign oil — to power its cars."

"Besides cutting its number of dealers, it will trim its major sourcing suppliers by more than half, to 750 from 1,600."

12/02/2008 10:26:48 PM · #8
before y'all go bashing Detroit and the auto industry for asking for a bailout, try reading this by Mitch Albom ... sheds a whole new light on the issue at hand and the corruption in Washington ... yes, I may be quite sensitive to the bailout since I live in Detroit and I'm watching the state slip into a downward spiral that it may not recover from for a long time ... all I ask is that you read the article and reflect on what Mitch is saying before you condemn Detroit and sentence us to utter poverty ... the auto industry IS Detroit, it's mostly all we've got ... Detroit and the entire country can't afford for it to fail ...
12/02/2008 11:14:59 PM · #9
Yeah, read it - didn't change my mind... but I am against the bailouts for the airlines, banks (and the slime insurance companies buying small banks to qualify for the bailout $), so what do I know........

I work in IT and that has been devastated by commoditation (no such word) & offshoring over the last few years.... Lost a lot of work/bids to offshore rates that are impossible to compete with on just price.... and I ain't pushing for a bailout for the IT industry.
12/02/2008 11:15:13 PM · #10
If we hadn't abandoned the horse and carriage we wouldn't be talk...

ah nevermind...

/whips whip
12/02/2008 11:15:15 PM · #11
Originally posted by pamelasue:

before y'all go bashing Detroit and the auto industry for asking for a bailout, try reading this by Mitch Albom ... sheds a whole new light on the issue at hand and the corruption in Washington ... yes, I may be quite sensitive to the bailout since I live in Detroit and I'm watching the state slip into a downward spiral that it may not recover from for a long time ... all I ask is that you read the article and reflect on what Mitch is saying before you condemn Detroit and sentence us to utter poverty ... the auto industry IS Detroit, it's mostly all we've got ... Detroit and the entire country can't afford for it to fail ...


Not just Detroit, but the rest of Michigan too. That's not to mention significant portions of many other states as well.

Keep in mind that it's entirely likely that the Detroit 3, especially Ford, will never touch the government money. It's not like the other bailouts in that what the D3 are asking for is a guarantee of a loan from the government in case they need it.

Message edited by author 2008-12-02 23:19:56.
12/02/2008 11:40:07 PM · #12
Originally posted by robs:

Yeah, read it - didn't change my mind... but I am against the bailouts for the airlines, banks (and the slime insurance companies buying small banks to qualify for the bailout $), so what do I know........

I work in IT and that has been devastated by commoditation (no such word) & offshoring over the last few years.... Lost a lot of work/bids to offshore rates that are impossible to compete with on just price.... and I ain't pushing for a bailout for the IT industry.


I work in IT also, and fortunately for me, not for a Michigan based company ... too late on the "no bail-outs" for the airlines, banks and insurance companies ... so why not save an entire state and a good chunk of the country with a bail-out for the auto industry? At least we produce something tangible ... where the friggin banking industry is in trouble because of all of the bad balloon loans that it's given and sold over the last decade or so ... The country and Michigan can't afford for the American auto industry to go belly up ...
12/02/2008 11:43:58 PM · #13
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by pamelasue:

before y'all go bashing Detroit and the auto industry for asking for a bailout, try reading this by Mitch Albom ... sheds a whole new light on the issue at hand and the corruption in Washington ... yes, I may be quite sensitive to the bailout since I live in Detroit and I'm watching the state slip into a downward spiral that it may not recover from for a long time ... all I ask is that you read the article and reflect on what Mitch is saying before you condemn Detroit and sentence us to utter poverty ... the auto industry IS Detroit, it's mostly all we've got ... Detroit and the entire country can't afford for it to fail ...


Not just Detroit, but the rest of Michigan too. That's not to mention significant portions of many other states as well.

Keep in mind that it's entirely likely that the Detroit 3, especially Ford, will never touch the government money. It's not like the other bailouts in that what the D3 are asking for is a guarantee of a loan from the government in case they need it.


completely agree that it's the entire state, not just Detroit ... but, Detroit is currently the focus of the "bail-out" so I used them as a reference ... I am fully aware that Ford is just looking for a guarantee of a loan, whereas GM needs 4 billion by xmas in order to stay in business ... if they don't get the loan by the end of the year, they go belly up ... the news just announced that they're looking to dump Pontiac, Saaab, Saturn and a few other brands ... Pontiac may disappear completely as they may just quit making them altogether ... The future for Michigan is very bleak now and it appears that most of the country doesn't give a shit ... sad, very sad indeed ...
12/02/2008 11:59:32 PM · #14
Man, I just had to laugh a bit when Pelosi commented today, (this is paraphrased) "I find it crazy that the leaders of the company are paid lavish salaries while the company loses billions of dollars."

Hey, Nancy, what if there were 535 "leaders" and the company was losing trillions of dollars? How do you like them apples?
12/03/2008 12:10:56 AM · #15
I think that they should take the auto co bailout billions, and just pay for each family of US citizens to have a nice new US made car. That would directly help the auto companies stay afloat, and all of us who are actually paying for the bailout would benefit as well. : )
That's my idea of fair.
12/03/2008 12:12:53 AM · #16
You are correct Dr. I also thought it was funny when a senator (not sure who is was) ridiculed the CEOs for flying in on corp jets. Did it look bad to fly in on the jets...yes, however, with the unions and the government "rules" that are enforced on our motor companies, the corp jets are the LEAST of the problems.

I would have liked to see one of the CEOs say, ok....you get the government standards and unions off our plate and let us build cars that people want to buy I'll ride a bike back and forth to work each day!

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Man, I just had to laugh a bit when Pelosi commented today, (this is paraphrased) "I find it crazy that the leaders of the company are paid lavish salaries while the company loses billions of dollars."

Hey, Nancy, what if there were 535 "leaders" and the company was losing trillions of dollars? How do you like them apples?
12/03/2008 12:15:35 AM · #17
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Man, I just had to laugh a bit when Pelosi commented today, (this is paraphrased) "I find it crazy that the leaders of the company are paid lavish salaries while the company loses billions of dollars."

Hey, Nancy, what if there were 535 "leaders" and the company was losing trillions of dollars? How do you like them apples?


I'll stand up and applaud that statement ...
12/03/2008 12:24:39 AM · #18
Originally posted by pamelasue:



completely agree that it's the entire state, not just Detroit ...


It goes well beyond the State of Michigan. The effects of the US auto companies going into bankruptcy will be felt everywhere.

Most of the gripes I hear about the US auto companies are based almost entirely on outdated and no longer relevant criticisms. These mindless criticisms are too easily thrown around without any investigation. It's a shame that bashing the US auto companies has become so fashionable.

Regardless, look beyond the simplistic media regurgitations and you'll see that the US auto companies already have made significant changes. The financing they seek is NOT to start to fix their problems - they started years ago and made much progress. But in the midst of fixing their problems the economy went in the toilet (certainly not because of the US auto companies).

Anyone seriously looking to debate this issue and not just repeat what CNN or CNBC prints, let me know.
12/03/2008 12:40:12 AM · #19
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Man, I just had to laugh a bit when Pelosi commented today, (this is paraphrased) "I find it crazy that the leaders of the company are paid lavish salaries while the company loses billions of dollars."

Hey, Nancy, what if there were 535 "leaders" and the company was losing trillions of dollars? How do you like them apples?

The Speaker of the House of Representatives currently receives an annual salary of $217,400, while "Mr. $1" President of Ford got about $22 million last year alone -- hopefully he saved enough to squeak by this year without resorting to a diet of Top Ramen or having to apply for Food Stamps ...
12/03/2008 12:42:08 AM · #20
Originally posted by Patents4u:

Originally posted by pamelasue:



completely agree that it's the entire state, not just Detroit ...


It goes well beyond the State of Michigan. The effects of the US auto companies going into bankruptcy will be felt everywhere.



exactly ... that's why I said the entire country can't afford for the US auto industry to fail ... ;)
12/03/2008 12:48:42 AM · #21
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Man, I just had to laugh a bit when Pelosi commented today, (this is paraphrased) "I find it crazy that the leaders of the company are paid lavish salaries while the company loses billions of dollars."

Hey, Nancy, what if there were 535 "leaders" and the company was losing trillions of dollars? How do you like them apples?

The Speaker of the House of Representatives currently receives an annual salary of $217,400, while "Mr. $1" President of Ford got about $22 million last year alone -- hopefully he saved enough to squeak by this year without resorting to a diet of Top Ramen or having to apply for Food Stamps ...


I'm not saying that there aren't problems with the auto industry ... there are MANY issues that need to be addressed, but you can't point the finger at them without examining the banking and insurance industries either ... there's no way that there's less corruption at that level than in Detroit ... at least we manufacture something tangible and we're not just moving money around expecting to collect a commission on it ... we're not giving balloon loans to people that aren't even close to capable of paying them back ... BECAUSE of the banking industry we're hurting even more ... the banking industry is not giving loans to highly qualified people right now, so how are they, or anyone else for that matter, supposed to afford the second most expensive thing they'll ever buy without any kind of a loan? Because of the banking industry, almost no one is buying a car right now, they're all too afraid of what is happening to their retirement accounts to purchase a car ... how is the Big 3 supposed to survive without anyone buying a car??????
12/03/2008 01:15:09 AM · #22
I am in the middle of this issue and am facing the dark reality that I may be losing my job VERY soon. Interesting note...I don't work for the big three...I work for a different OEM. That fact alone might shine a light on the idea that this "situation" may not be the soul fault of the US OEMs. Perhaps the slumping economy with the surge in gas prices (despite the fact they are now low) and the swing away from gas guzzlers could be a major part of the problem.

Sure the big 3 invested way too much of their profitability in SUVs and trucks, but is that their fault? Hell no! They were building them because that's what the market wanted! Now that we are all going "green" we are bashing them for not making better eco-friendly cars. That sux. We should be more mindful of what is really happening instead of just pointing the finger!

Back to my initial point, the big three are not the only ones feeling the pinch here! Toyota has shut down plants, Nissan has virtually stopped production of its SUVs and trucks, and Honda...well they have the Ridgeline and only God knows how that ugly thing ever made it past concept. Seriously though, foreign OEMs are also feeling the crunch and don't think for one second that they won't be going back to their respective governments to ask for money if Congress forks over the $$ to the big three.

All I'm trying to say is...lay off the big three a little...we are all feeling the crunch of the economy and its no one's fault. Hind-sight is 20/20...they should have built more cars and not SUVs.

I also feel compelled to discuss the point of the bailout...should Congress hand it over? I think the answer is quite simple...but the reason is not. Does the big three deserve $$ for making poor decisions...no. They shouldn't get a dime. In fact, I think the entire Senior management of each should be totally redone...if not completely replaced. HOWEVER, do the US citizens that are directly and indirectly employed by these OEMs deserve to lose their jobs? (that's approximately 2.5 million US citizens) The answer is NO. It wasn't our fault the economy took a dive. We didn't decide to make all SUVs. We have been working our asses off trying to make engines more reliable, while providing more horsepower, and run on less fuel...and keep the prices down. Compare today's engines/cars with the ones only ten years ago (my '98 camaro V6 had 100 LESS hp then my current four-dour sedan V6). We deserve to keep our jobs! Take that into consideration before you oppose the bailout! In principle, I agree that it should not happen...but it has to happen to protect the millions of jobs/people.

sorry for the rant...

12/03/2008 01:26:38 AM · #23
This whole bailout thing has inspired me. I am self-employed, but because of
all the bailouts, I have made sure I am TOO BIG TO FAIL!!!

Photo by ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Trollman
12/03/2008 01:29:39 AM · #24
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Man, I just had to laugh a bit when Pelosi commented today, (this is paraphrased) "I find it crazy that the leaders of the company are paid lavish salaries while the company loses billions of dollars."

Hey, Nancy, what if there were 535 "leaders" and the company was losing trillions of dollars? How do you like them apples?

The Speaker of the House of Representatives currently receives an annual salary of $217,400, while "Mr. $1" President of Ford got about $22 million last year alone -- hopefully he saved enough to squeak by this year without resorting to a diet of Top Ramen or having to apply for Food Stamps ...


Mr. Mullally is running Ford, the automaker that's in the best financial shape of the D3. The company that may not even need to borrow Federal money.

I'd wager that any of the CEO's and executives at any of the D3 are making far less than their counterparts at any of the banks that built the financial house of cards that has caused this economic disaster and they're asking for far less help in terms of dollars with more at stake.

I don't really give a damn about the CEO's and what they make, I'm more concerned about all little guys that will get the shaft; the retired assembly line workers, the current line workers, the engineers, the people who work for the automotive suppliers, their families.

Don't take my word for it, take a Nobel prize winning economist's word for it.

In short, there are between 1 and 3 million people who stand to lose their jobs should the industry collapse. Maybe a dozen of those are the "bad guys" here who are the people personally undeserving of a bailout. Are you really willing to doom those 3 million to punish those dozen or so idiots?
12/03/2008 01:36:58 AM · #25
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

I'd wager that any of the CEO's and executives at any of the D3 are making far less than their counterparts at any of the banks that built the financial house of cards that has caused this economic disaster and they're asking for far less help in terms of dollars with more at stake.

I completely agree about those bookies financial CEOs and all that -- I was merely pointing out that our Representatives in Congress are not being paid an exhorbitantly high amount by today's standards compared to others with "similar managerial responsibilities."
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